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Offlineobladi oblada
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Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality
    #14106612 - 03/11/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

First, in order to understand my proposition, you must understand this analogy of the perception of reality. I came up with this during a mushroom trip, while writing thoughts in my notebook.

Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts. Imagine the point in this space which is you, looking around at all these objects. This view is what you are familiar with, and refer to this setting as a sober state of mind. With psychedelics, you change position in this space, allowing you to see new objects, and to look from a different perspective at the familiar objects which you have come to surround your life with. You can see them differently. This is an altered state of mind.
This altered state is a perfect setting for profound, life-changing discoveries, because you can see what the sober state cannot. Also, you can go about the day in this altered state with brilliant new ideas!

The brain is merely a means of perceiving what is there. We are within the constraints of logic. We may only be seeing a fraction of this space.

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?






Another note: During heavy mushroom trips, I am thrown into a void of nothingness. Darkness. Have any of you ever experienced this? I have also once had the felling that our brain and body limits us, and when we die, we are released into this void and perhaps then we can perceive the darkness and can be everywhere. Maybe its just a failure of the brain to sense anything because of the drugs. Maybe its just a memory failure. That could be possible. Im not saying I am deprived of sense, its more like you go to sleep and when you wake up all you remember is this void.


--------------------
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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14106728 - 03/11/11 11:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The survivalist brain shuts out even aesthetics. The world is bland for someone merely surviving. Fear has to go, and the world around you blossoms into something else.

I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: circastes]
    #14107321 - 03/12/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival. And I think it is very important to indulge the psychedelic state because it actually helps to form the sober state and open it up to more possibilities.

I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14107548 - 03/12/11 05:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival.



So far.  The future is being developed right now, some drugs such as Piracetam seem to boost the so called "sober state"


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14107726 - 03/12/11 07:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well IMO, the point in that room is not the self, it is just another thought.
otherwise the model which is just a room full of stuff, is not a bad start.

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)

the state of mind, neither True nor not True, deals with the degree of resonance and layering together of stuff. Things get more resonant and layered when stoned, if you want to call that truer you could but some would argue that less layers and less meaning (resonance) is more true, and that seems a bit weird but understandable...


--------------------
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Offlinegodplayssims
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14108837 - 03/12/11 12:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival.




Completely agree with this.
I feel like the sober state also channels the ego into existence.

"With regard to the superstitions of logicians, I shall never tire of emphasizing a small terse fact, which these superstitious minds hate to concede-namely, that a thought comes when "it" wishes, and not when "I" wish, so that it is a falsification of the facts of the case to say that the subject "I" is the condition of the predicate "think." It thinks; but that is "it" is precisely the famous old "ego" is only a supposition, and assuredly not an "immediate certainty. After all, one has even gone too far with this "it thinks"-even the "it" contains an interpretation of the process, and does not belong to the process itself. One infers here according to the grammatical habit: "Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently..." (Geneology of Morals)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: godplayssims]
    #14109246 - 03/12/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the sober state is good for driving. for repeating a learned task mindlessly.
some parts of survival require that.
other instances of threat require a shift our of normal awareness for survival (thinking out of the box), especially when there is nothing familiar to connect with.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14109432 - 03/12/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.


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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14112066 - 03/12/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
The survivalist brain shuts out even aesthetics. The world is bland for someone merely surviving. Fear has to go, and the world around you blossoms into something else.

I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.



Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival. And I think it is very important to indulge the psychedelic state because it actually helps to form the sober state and open it up to more possibilities.

I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...




I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.


Quote:

circastes said:
I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.




Interesting. Where did you find this from terence?


--------------------
:shroompick: :regularshroom: :amanita2: :supershroom: :mushroomgrow: :mushroom2: :pinkshroom: :1up: :greenshroom:


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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14112078 - 03/12/11 11:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Well IMO, the point in that room is not the self, it is just another thought.
otherwise the model which is just a room full of stuff, is not a bad start.

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)

the state of mind, neither True nor not True, deals with the degree of resonance and layering together of stuff. Things get more resonant and layered when stoned, if you want to call that truer you could but some would argue that less layers and less meaning (resonance) is more true, and that seems a bit weird but understandable...




This could be true. I still think i dont fully understand what is the ego.

And i dont understand the last paragraph.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.




Precisely!


--------------------
:shroompick: :regularshroom: :amanita2: :supershroom: :mushroomgrow: :mushroom2: :pinkshroom: :1up: :greenshroom:


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14112496 - 03/13/11 12:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

Interesting. Where did you find this from terence?



His idea is that we were on mushrooms for I guess thousands of years and this caused our evolution. The brain evolved with psilocybin in mind, it structured itself around the psilocybin intake. Then it disappeared due to climate changes in many areas and we all went back to the territorial primate way of thinking. But actually this is where Terence stops and I begin - and I say the psilocybin brain can be turned on again, certainly its ecstasy and its love and peace can be turned on. It's perceptions, perhaps, in a lesser way (ie. no OEVs). Terence, at least, considered taking psilocybin a remedy to our runaway global crisis - which was all caused by a huge brain suddenly switching back to an older way of thinking and perceiving.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: circastes]
    #14113089 - 03/13/11 06:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.




It may seem like it is all lost but the things you see and experience change the way your brain works for a long time afterwards.

I do understand what you mean though. In the psychadelic state you actually live and breathe that knowledge but when you return to being sober you can only really 'believe' in that knowledge. You lose the connection you had with that alternative thought process.

But do you truly believe that once you've seen the world through a different light that this will not influence you for the rest of your life?


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14113138 - 03/13/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.





I know that feeling.
However I do not think anything is lost, it is just that we clutch towards temporal manifestations of the feeling - such as ideas and emotions. These are forgotten.
The overall experience though is like a stone in the water, its ripples will be more obvious in time and more intricate as it interacts with other ripples.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)





Right on, you expressed that magnificently



*edit: the brain is only a machine. A series of switches that exist between the physical body and Soul. Put drugs in the body, it interacts with the brain, this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object, for the brain does not percieve - it only transmits information.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/13/11 07:20 AM)


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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14116617 - 03/13/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
His idea is that we were on mushrooms for I guess thousands of years and this caused our evolution. The brain evolved with psilocybin in mind, it structured itself around the psilocybin intake. Then it disappeared due to climate changes in many areas and we all went back to the territorial primate way of thinking. But actually this is where Terence stops and I begin - and I say the psilocybin brain can be turned on again, certainly its ecstasy and its love and peace can be turned on. It's perceptions, perhaps, in a lesser way (ie. no OEVs). Terence, at least, considered taking psilocybin a remedy to our runaway global crisis - which was all caused by a huge brain suddenly switching back to an older way of thinking and perceiving.




I remember that now.

However i think that the chemical is required. Sure, euphoria can be triggered, but not in the way that the chemical psilocybin does.

Quote:

durantz said:

It may seem like it is all lost but the things you see and experience change the way your brain works for a long time afterwards.

I do understand what you mean though. In the psychadelic state you actually live and breathe that knowledge but when you return to being sober you can only really 'believe' in that knowledge. You lose the connection you had with that alternative thought process.

But do you truly believe that once you've seen the world through a different light that this will not influence you for the rest of your life?




Its like a dream. I cant remember. I am glad that I write some things down, but its hard to translate feelings into words, let alone feelings from the world of psilocybin.

Quote:


*edit: the brain is only a machine. A series of switches that exist between the physical body and Soul. Put drugs in the body, it interacts with the brain, this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object, for the brain does not percieve - it only transmits information.




I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.

I dont understand "this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object"

Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14116634 - 03/13/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?




Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....


Edited by durantz (03/13/11 09:41 PM)


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14117905 - 03/14/11 02:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:
I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.





Thats pretty similar to what I was trying to say, that the brain is a middle man and not Soul or reality.


Quote:


Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?




I think if you want to use that definition it would work.
The word information sort of implies logic, perception goes beyond that, but if you view all the senses (conscious and sub) as channels for information - then I would agree that perception is transmitting information or arriving at it.



Quote:

durantz said:

Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....




Well that would have more to do with conversation or logic than the general experience of reality. Personally I wouldn't say logic gets involved until the percieved information is organized in some way.

Perception could also exist beyond logic, but I agree that perception itself is a subjective illusion. Reality or the poetical term 'Soul' would along my understanding - exist beyond either perception or logic - in a state which could not be communicated or put to words.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/14/11 02:19 AM)


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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14117962 - 03/14/11 02:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Well...couldn't we argue that nothing actually exists, because these physical objects are just what you said, thoughts?

Kind of like the idea behind the movie, The Matrix. Nothing is actually physically real.

Entirely possible. And no one would know.

Not even me. Yet it's a theory that bothers some physicists to absolute hell.

But it's observed as such, at least at very small scales. So...do we live in a hologram?

Read Brian Greene's book The Hidden Reality. :smile:


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14118214 - 03/14/11 06:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Its our "normal" state without the intake of foreign substances that change  function/s of our body.
Once we do that we changed our state. Even coffee has the ability to change our perception. I was told perception is reality. I don't think our minds aren't capable of truly realizing reality. Can you imagine what would happen if you could know everything that was going on in the world at once for just one second? It would still be off due to ideas, morals, beliefs we have in our head that would guide how we perceived it/ translated it but we would still have a blured perception. Every thing we know is a set of translations. Our eyes read light, which is sent to our brain, which processes it and delivers a picture. Kinda like our computer monitors show a picture. Same with sound, touch, smell and taste.


Quote:

durantz said:
I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...




I don't think so either you cant unlearn or unthink something even if you don't consciously rememer it.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.




That how I look at tripping. It allows me too escape my perception beyond normal intoxicants look at things if it be myself, the position I am in, those around me.



*I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.*

The brains electrical impulses are our thoughts, our translation of the environment around us. When I have seizure I have no thoughts in my head I just "know" and reality is def different. Feels like I'm living the exact same thing for the second time except a life time later. Neurologist explained it as a delay in my brains processing of information. I am living it twice. Once in reality and the other my perception which is only a nanosecond off. All that is in a malfunction of my brain and its electrical circuits.



Quote:

durantz said:

Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....




I agree.anytime you have to pass threw a "stage" accuracy falls. Going from my thoughts, to words, to someone elses ears to be translated by their brain THEN the concious mind steps in and tries to figure out what the other said.



*Perception could also exist beyond logic, but I agree that perception itself is a subjective illusion. Reality or the poetical term 'Soul' would along my understanding - exist beyond either perception or logic - in a state which could not be communicated or put to words.*

Perception does exist beyond and without logic IMO look at mental illnesses. Sometimes our mids can have a seperation from logic and reality just as people in psychotic states think they are whatever they think, everyones out to get them, they have super powers. I have a childhood friend who recently was thinking she was a famous rapper that had been ripped off by "them". She truely belived it and didn't think I was me. She still had logic tho flawed and that was reality for her.

I think the true magic is in our brain. Have we evolved with shrooms? Yes. We also evolved with cannabis and our body actually produces cannibinoids, tho I believe they are slightly different than cannabis cannibinoids. Some say its the substance but I think its our brain. Can you achieve altered states without them? If you work hard enough. Monks somewhere wrap themselves in wet sheets in a heatless shake on a mountain top and can raise their body temp. Don't underestimate your brains power.


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OfflineShpongle1
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14119419 - 03/14/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tyler_0_durden said:
Quote:

obladi oblada said:Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Well...couldn't we argue that nothing actually exists, because these physical objects are just what you said, thoughts?

Kind of like the idea behind the movie, The Matrix. Nothing is actually physically real.

Entirely possible. And no one would know.

Not even me. Yet it's a theory that bothers some physicists to absolute hell.

But it's observed as such, at least at very small scales. So...do we live in a hologram?

Read Brian Greene's book The Hidden Reality. :smile:




Can you explain this.  I'm not that familiar with the Matrix.  I saw it once when it came out but I was sort of young to have a deep grasp on exactly what was up.

Are you implying that I'm just creating this reality in my mind?  Like a waking dream of some kind..?  Because if not then I can assume that the things around me are real because other people are seeing the same things as me.

I'm not saying that I think sober reality is REAL reality, in the sense that it is the complete reality...I'm thoroughly convinced that there is much more beyond what we perceive.  But still, the things I come in contact with ARE really there, etc... I don't think the idea of this Earth, Isaac Newton, mangos...are things that we dreamed up.  That's probably not what you're implying but that's basically what I'm getting from it.

Explain the argument "nothing actually exists", even briefly if you don't mind.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14119546 - 03/14/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Varanid said:
Don't underestimate your brains power.




In my understanding, which is derived largely from sober OBE's and deep meditation, the brain is only a machine - not the creater of the mind, or its counterpart, or its physical manifestation.
The mind itself is a machine, and thought is an illusory process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the brain muscle, its not helping anyone when they're corporeal body ceases to function.

As far as science has come, it deals exclusively with mundane and trivial physical observations. One is better off looking within and following the stream of light and sound towards reality, than observing and making a study of the manifestations of their delusions - the physical world.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14119589 - 03/14/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shpongle1 said:

Are you implying that I'm just creating this reality in my mind?  Like a waking dream of some kind..?  Because if not then I can assume that the things around me are real because other people are seeing the same things as me.





The physical world definitely exists, but at any time - the individuals only percieves a small portion of what is going on around them.
Take for example the light spectrum - of which the human eye can only percieve a small portion. With sound it is the same, the brain can only process vibrations within a certain range.
So while this world is solid, it exists in nonsubstantial layers some of which we see and some of which we do not. "We" being a subjective term for the individual, but collectively. That is to say: each percieves the layers of reality which they can concieve, and that is different for all.

"I exist, therfore I am." One can apply this logic to the physical world, it exists therefore it exists. To a degree it can be communicated though how any piece of information is percieved can vary between individuals.
As an extreme example, take a color blind individual and someone with healthy vision. They can both observe, calculate and measure an object but percieve it differently.

The physical reality exists but it is not the only reality or the center of reality. The term physical itself is poetic for most of what we percieve is not made up of matter, and matter itself is only concentrated energy. Wherever you want to draw the boundaries, it is real and it is less than a fraction of totality.


--------------------
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Edited by ahchela (03/14/11 02:06 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14120941 - 03/14/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ah
Quote:

ahchela said:
Quote:

Varanid said:
Don't underestimate your brains power.




In my understanding, which is derived largely from sober OBE's and deep meditation, the brain is only a machine - not the creater of the mind, or its counterpart, or its physical manifestation.
The mind itself is a machine, and thought is an illusory process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the brain muscle, its not helping anyone when they're corporeal body ceases to function.

As far as science has come, it deals exclusively with mundane and trivial physical observations. One is better off looking within and following the stream of light and sound towards reality, than observing and making a study of the manifestations of their delusions - the physical world.




To talk about this further I guess I would have to know do you think our soul, or some other unmeasurable piece of "us" is what controls our brain like we do a computer? Your total lack of concern for the brain confuses me. Yeah it doesn't help when our body ceases to function, its supplied with the necessary things to operate by the body. I'm not really understanding you it seems you think your brain is worthless and like a car I am guessing. Scientist don't even true ly understand the brain disregarding it power is irresponsible in my opinion. And scientist dealing with mundane and trivial physical observations makes me wander what you are thinking really. I dont understand your point I guess.  Our brains are worthless except keeping us alive and science only focuses on BS? Well science is by far mundane and our brains are our prison cells and the medium for which we think, I think therefore I am. I really don't get what you were trying to say. I'm trying to understand but it seems you disregard everything for something you didn't explain.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14122342 - 03/14/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well I'm just making conversation, maybe I'm speaking too much in a persuasive or pseudo-authoritive manner, but really I'm just throwing in my two cents to be taken however it will be.
It would be impossible for me to prove my point, as it comes from personal experience and the validity of it can only be tested 1st hand. So these words are only food for thought.

I do not think the individual can consciously control the brain, but I would definitely relate it to the drivers seat of a car. Only a car that the individual is conjoined with, so they control the body through the brain but without consulting it.
The individual and their conscious mind exist beyond the corporeal world where the physical body exists. Stepping out of this body, there is no connection to the brain but conscious thought is still possible.

This is the point where it becomes your subjective reality. One who has never experienced leaving their body consciously, can only choose to believe or disbelieve that the individual exists beyond the body.
On the other hand one who has left the body, has no measure to verify that the experience was infact an OBE and not the product of their mind.
For me personally, in my experience there is a sense of validity in consistency and communion with individuals I also know physically. When two people remember an experience, that is as much proof as you can get for anything. That does not translate to anyone past myself however, for in my mind I know, in anothers mind I believe, in anothers mind I am delusional.
:shrug:



So yes I view the brain as no more than a tool, as seperation from it has never caused me to lose thought. If I have no connection to it and can still rationalize, then it is neither the center of my memory or intellect. *edit: I should point out that brain damage can affect the individuals train of thought, it is similar to having a broken steering column or a window covered in snow. The individual may not be affected but their ability to control the car is.
Physical science is definitely not bs though, it focuses on mundane things but that is its nature. Through physical science we get our standard of living and much of our understanding of this universe. Mycology is a science, and without that we wouldn't know how to differentiate shrooms from poisonous mushrooms. A mundane task, but a neccessity. Through mathematics we can communicate more effeciently with others, with ourselves and with our universe. Science is all good, it just cannot penetrate where the laws of physics do not apply.


Again I'm not trying to say I am all knowing and correct, just stating my current understanding as best as I can put into words. Food for thought :peace:


--------------------
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Edited by ahchela (03/14/11 10:16 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14125211 - 03/15/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Well that would have more to do with conversation or logic than the general experience of reality. Personally I wouldn't say logic gets involved until the percieved information is organized in some way.





Yes, perception goes beyond logic. It is possible that, during the confusion of sleep deprivation, logic fails but perception does not.


Quote:

When I have seizure I have no thoughts in my head I just "know" and reality is def different. Feels like I'm living the exact same thing for the second time except a life time later. Neurologist explained it as a delay in my brains processing of information. I am living it twice. Once in reality and the other my perception which is only a nanosecond off. All that is in a malfunction of my brain and its electrical circuits.





Yes, thats the same as deja vu. The two hemispheres of your brain processing at different times.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14130578 - 03/16/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Varanid said:
Ah
Quote:

ahchela said:
Quote:

Varanid said:
Don't underestimate your brains power.




In my understanding, which is derived largely from sober OBE's and deep meditation, the brain is only a machine - not the creater of the mind, or its counterpart, or its physical manifestation.
The mind itself is a machine, and thought is an illusory process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the brain muscle, its not helping anyone when they're corporeal body ceases to function.

As far as science has come, it deals exclusively with mundane and trivial physical observations. One is better off looking within and following the stream of light and sound towards reality, than observing and making a study of the manifestations of their delusions - the physical world.




To talk about this further I guess I would have to know do you think our soul, or some other unmeasurable piece of "us" is what controls our brain like we do a computer? Your total lack of concern for the brain confuses me. Yeah it doesn't help when our body ceases to function, its supplied with the necessary things to operate by the body. I'm not really understanding you it seems you think your brain is worthless and like a car I am guessing. Scientist don't even true ly understand the brain disregarding it power is irresponsible in my opinion. And scientist dealing with mundane and trivial physical observations makes me wander what you are thinking really. I dont understand your point I guess.  Our brains are worthless except keeping us alive and science only focuses on BS? Well science is by far mundane and our brains are our prison cells and the medium for which we think, I think therefore I am. I really don't get what you were trying to say. I'm trying to understand but it seems you disregard everything for something you didn't explain.




It has become rather cancerous to our understanding of the enigmatic brain-body duality. The absolute materialistic reduction that sciences abides to has eroded our ability to see the abstract process that arise out of the complex quantum function of our brain. Its almost as if the brain is a mirror that reflects the perception gleaned from our senses into the awareness of the conscious self, attempts to explain the mind and the creativity and consciousness that arise out of it with the same methodology in the sciences is akin to trying to explain the taste of a apple to someone by only hinting at its shape, texture, form, and color.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14132792 - 03/16/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

attempts to explain the mind and the creativity and consciousness that arise out of it with the same methodology in the sciences is akin to trying to explain the taste of a apple to someone by only hinting at its shape, texture, form, and color.




Wouldn't this suggest to you that the mind is simply a subjective illusion rather than anything actually existing in objective reality?

You've basically just admitted that we can't perform any quantitative measurements of the mind. Why is it then more rational to believe in dualism than it is to be a materialist? At least materialists use empirical data to confirm their beliefs whereas dualists simply say "it feels like we do have a mind so we must have one"


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14132906 - 03/16/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
You've basically just admitted that we can't perform any quantitative measurements of the mind



While this is true the brain and mind are very mysterious and complicated things.  We know that activation of certain parts of the brains produce certain feelings or thoughts... maybe in the future we will be able quantitativly measure certain levels of chemical messengers which equate to aspects of mind (thoughts, feelings ect ect.)

We simply just don't know enough about the brain to quantitatively measure anything:shrug:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14133116 - 03/16/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

attempts to explain the mind and the creativity and consciousness that arise out of it with the same methodology in the sciences is akin to trying to explain the taste of a apple to someone by only hinting at its shape, texture, form, and color.




Wouldn't this suggest to you that the mind is simply a subjective illusion rather than anything actually existing in objective reality?

You've basically just admitted that we can't perform any quantitative measurements of the mind. Why is it then more rational to believe in dualism than it is to be a materialist? At least materialists use empirical data to confirm their beliefs whereas dualists simply say "it feels like we do have a mind so we must have one"




You would deny your own senses and awareness of self as being some phantasm of ordered process's? The feeling exists I know what I feel and that I am perceiving the feeling. Being a materialist amounts to nothing more then assuming its governed by a law even though you havent a faintest idea what that law is. Even through the simple exertion of meditation of willing that inner stillness brainwave patterns are changed. By thought. Quantum physics is in full support of this as you would be aware of if you ever read about schrodingers cat or Einstein's paradox of quantum entanglement through which the very action of observation affects the result.

EDIT: its not dualism im trying to prove to you, both dualism and materialism in there own aspects fail to explain the mind body problem, materialism kills the question before it is even asked.


Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/16/11 07:55 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14134301 - 03/16/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

materialism kills the question before it is even asked.




That's why I like it. Keep things simple... :P

Quote:

You would deny your own senses and awareness of self as being some phantasm of ordered process's?




Sorry I misunderstand this question, the wording is not clear for me.

Quote:

By thought. Quantum physics is in full support of this as you would be aware of if you ever read about schrodingers cat or Einstein's paradox of quantum entanglement through which the very action of observation affects the result.




It has been hypothesised that the action of observing these events alters the result because when photons bounce off the electrons they throw them into a different trajectory. So what appears to be 'random' could actually be determined, it's just being affected on a scale not thought of by Schrodinger or Einstein... How many experiments have they done to actually confirm these theories???? One? Two?


This concept of mind that you have is simply your ego which has it's foundation in the structure of the brain. If you are trying to tell me you have an ego then sure I'll agree with you. But to try and tell me you've got some kind of mystical mind, independent of body I will disagree 100% of the time.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14134708 - 03/17/11 12:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Boogy Woogy


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14135512 - 03/17/11 07:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You need to stop viewing any notion of the immaterial with such scorn and cynicism, Im not trying to prove we have some sort of mystical soul hear that continues on after we die.


What im trying to say is in the mind body relation there lies a clear distinction between the two not to say there separable, but mind arises out of the brain as something distinct in its shape and feel, its free will. The mind is even capable of shaping the brain. If you calm yourself into a state of meditation, through the application of will, brain wave patterns change in physicality. The brain even shows a amount of neuroplasticity in adults such as this study done on patients with OCD

http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Schwartz.html

Where the doctor trained them in mindful thinking as treatment, to be aware of the distinction between a compulsion and a regular thought and to maintain the awareness that its not real. Before and after they underwent successful treatment PET scans where taken and the over active fear circuit that was shown to cause OCD was altered and rewired through the application of the patients will alone. Consciousness itself affected the matter which it is supposed to be a product of, according to materialism. Which really makes you wonder how this mind-body relationship arises out of the material of the brain.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14135764 - 03/17/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
...mind arises out of the brain as something distinct in its shape and feel, its free will.


What do you mean by distinct in its "shape and feel"? How do you know that the mind arises out of the brain due to its free will?


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
The mind is even capable of shaping the brain.


But what does this prove?


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Consciousness itself affected the matter which it is supposed to be a product of, according to materialism.


What is so amazing about this?


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Which really makes you wonder how this mind-body relationship arises out of the material of the brain.


It doesn't make me wonder that; the mind is basically a sort of program in the brain, that this program can change the shape of the brain is not really too amazing to me.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/17/11 09:52 AM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14135951 - 03/17/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I am beginning to understand what you are trying to say. And I think we actually have similar ideas about this. It's just very hard to put it into words.

I do agree with you that the consciousness (you call it mind) can influence the brain. But I believe that the consciousness feeds off the brain. So it may be simply that neurons in one part of the brain fire which causes a change in consciousness which then loops back to cause a change in a different location in the brain. A perpetual loop that is set in motion at the time of conception (depends on your idea of when we develop consciousness)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14138860 - 03/17/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




In regards to RP's original question, I question the very notion of "true" state to begin with. We have a "default" state of consciousness which evolution has carved into an amazing tool for survival. That said, because it aids us in survival does not mean that it "is the true state."

Furthermore, your very question in the way you worded it, implies that you believe in a 'true state' of consciousness somewhere, someplace, at somepoint. Perhpas you believe that certain altered states of consciousness, meditative, psychedelice, or otherwise, may grant us truer pictures of reality. Like your original metaphor suggests, seeing things from a different perspective doesn't mean you have seen objective, true, reality--only that you have changed the horizons of your perspective.

The idea that there exists a true state of consciousness sounds as naive and foolish as the idea that different software programs have more truth to them than others, eg, Word>Photoshop. To me, consciousness seems like a tool that we use to interact with the world. We can say that some tools work better than other tools in certain contexts, bound by certain perameters, but to say that a voltmeter gives us a truer picture of reality than a barometer... well, that just sounds dumb. :shrug:

Last thing: I would like to add my own two cents to the brief mention of quantum mechanics. I would like to offer my own, incomplete, perspective on QM.

When QM says that you cannot separate the observe from the observed, I understand that as meaning that "the lens through which you perceive reality, alters you perception of the object," which means something completely different than, "the mental intentions of the physicist somehow influences the physicality of the object observed."

So, I understand the famous double slit experiment as expressing the fact that how you conduct the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment. I think when people hear about the particle-wave paradox, they mistakenly believe that the SAME experiment yields two different results depending on the mental expectations of the physicist. The particle-wave paradox exists because we have different experimental evidence to support both models of matter: matter as a wave, and matter as a particle.

So when we hear that QM says, "the observer influences the experiment," I understand that as meaning, "the nature of questioning influences the nature of the answer."

If the need arises, I'll express my understanding of Schrodinger's cat at some other point.

Side Note: I think the shroomery needs a gremlin for quantum mechanics. All you artsy, graphics people, get CRACKIN!


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Poid]
    #14139366 - 03/17/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
...mind arises out of the brain as something distinct in its shape and feel, its free will.


What do you mean by distinct in its "shape and feel"? How do you know that the mind arises out of the brain due to its free will?


Uhhh whats the question? Do I say free will is the cause of anything?

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
The mind is even capable of shaping the brain.


But what does this prove?


It's basically showing that consciousness has the capacity to affect matter which I would go so far as to say means its something else entirely from the matter it is generated out of.

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Consciousness itself affected the matter which it is supposed to be a product of, according to materialism.


What is so amazing about this?

Thought is affecting matter.

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Which really makes you wonder how this mind-body relationship arises out of the material of the brain.


It doesn't make me wonder that; the mind is basically a sort of program in the brain, that this program can change the shape of the brain is not really too amazing to me.




A sort of program? How does one get a sort of program? saying its a program implies free will is a illusion and were all autonamous, the brain does a pretty fuckin miraculous thing by producing consciousness out of regularly inanimate "non thinking" matter I find the very question of how this happens tantalizing.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14139398 - 03/17/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




In regards to RP's original question, I question the very notion of "true" state to begin with. We have a "default" state of consciousness which evolution has carved into an amazing tool for survival. That said, because it aids us in survival does not mean that it "is the true state."

Furthermore, your very question in the way you worded it, implies that you believe in a 'true state' of consciousness somewhere, someplace, at somepoint. Perhpas you believe that certain altered states of consciousness, meditative, psychedelice, or otherwise, may grant us truer pictures of reality. Like your original metaphor suggests, seeing things from a different perspective doesn't mean you have seen objective, true, reality--only that you have changed the horizons of your perspective.

The idea that there exists a true state of consciousness sounds as naive and foolish as the idea that different software programs have more truth to them than others, eg, Word>Photoshop. To me, consciousness seems like a tool that we use to interact with the world. We can say that some tools work better than other tools in certain contexts, bound by certain perameters, but to say that a voltmeter gives us a truer picture of reality than a barometer... well, that just sounds dumb. :shrug:

Last thing: I would like to add my own two cents to the brief mention of quantum mechanics. I would like to offer my own, incomplete, perspective on QM.

When QM says that you cannot separate the observe from the observed, I understand that as meaning that "the lens through which you perceive reality, alters you perception of the object," which means something completely different than, "the mental intentions of the physicist somehow influences the physicality of the object observed."

So, I understand the famous double slit experiment as expressing the fact that how you conduct the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment. I think when people hear about the particle-wave paradox, they mistakenly believe that the SAME experiment yields two different results depending on the mental expectations of the physicist. The particle-wave paradox exists because we have different experimental evidence to support both models of matter: matter as a wave, and matter as a particle.

So when we hear that QM says, "the observer influences the experiment," I understand that as meaning, "the nature of questioning influences the nature of the answer."

If the need arises, I'll express my understanding of Schrodinger's cat at some other point.

Side Note: I think the shroomery needs a gremlin for quantum mechanics. All you artsy, graphics people, get CRACKIN!




totally agree with you dude. Especially with the concept of the consciousness as a survival mechanism.

The consciousness brings 'order' to our universe (I'm not saying that the universe doesn't have natural order it's just that to the common person we do not have access to the scientific instruments that are necessary to discover this order). The consciousness operates on the laws of causation to build a predictable system for us to understand the universe through. This has allowed us to make 'safe' assumptions on what outcomes to expect in certain situations; "when I go to the shop there will be food there".

What happens (well what is happening to me) when you undergo the psychedelic experience is that your consciousness takes a severe battering. The systems and self-organizing patterns, that your consciousness operates on, are broken down and information is allowed to flow more freely into the consciousness. Many people agree that the psychedelic experience allows them to see the world in a more objective manner, as if looking at it from outside yourself.

The long term result of this (in my case anyway) is that my ego has been majorly upset. The way I thought the world works before I started taking psychedelics just doesn't cut the mustard for me anymore. So at the moment I'm going through a period of turmoil and chaos. My survival mechanism (consciousness) is very weak at the moment and is failing to provide sufficient order in this world.

So I hypothesize that the consciousness will adapt to this and will create another, different, version of itself which will provide the order I need for my survival. I can already feel this taking affect as my goals and desires shift away from what they were a couple of years ago.

This has ramifications for the possibility of ego death. If my theory is correct then ego death would not be possible. The process would merely be a progression of the ego in the same way that a snake sheds its skin as its body grows bigger and requires more space. When you've reached a certain level of 'enlightenment' you require a 'bigger?'/'more complex?' ego to grow into. This process can be repeated until you die but I'm not so sure on actually being able to completely kill ego. I still think the only way to do this is to kill the body.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14139446 - 03/17/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
...mind arises out of the brain as something distinct in its shape and feel, its free will.


What do you mean by distinct in its "shape and feel"? How do you know that the mind arises out of the brain due to its free will?


Uhhh whats the question? Do I say free will is the cause of anything?


Well honestly, I don't really totally understand what you were trying to say there; what were you saying about free will? Can you rephrase that?


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
It's basically showing that consciousness has the capacity to affect matter which I would go so far as to say means its something else entirely from the matter it is generated out of.


Why would you go so far as to say that?


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

What is so amazing about this?




Thought is affecting matter.


What is so amazing about that? Thoughts affect matter all the time; every thought you have has a corresponding brain state, and every time you think a new thought that state is altered.


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

It doesn't make me wonder that; the mind is basically a sort of program in the brain, that this program can change the shape of the brain is not really too amazing to me.




A sort of program? How does one get a sort of program? saying its a program implies free will is a illusion...


Not necessarily; it would depend on how you define "free will".


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
the brain does a pretty fuckin miraculous thing by producing consciousness out of regularly inanimate "non thinking" matter I find the very question of how this happens tantalizing.


I think consciousness is amazing, too; I don't think the fact that thoughts can affect physical brain states is very amazing, though. :shrug:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Poid]
    #14140277 - 03/17/11 10:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You all took this over my head so Ill be talking in simple terms. I understand what you are all saying and agree we can't truely measure the mind/us/soul. I think out conscious is only an interface with our subconscious. I think we start life with a disposition and open mind. As we live we experience things that take us past "instincts". I think just as we learn thing but can't remember them we have came to decisions about how we respond to others and situations as well as how we view the world that becomes our ego. As said above tripping knocks us out of our usual sight picture as well as out of our conscious thought pattern and our subconscious mind shows its self in its vastness. I'm going to go read and look up what you guys are talking about.

ShroomScape you did a way better job of explaining what I was thinking about a true state, I was going to come back and say a true state of mind would be like true reality

I also agree ego death would be an ever evolving thing. I thing we are our ego in a way, just a traditional ego death is realizing who you really are in your actions, though patterns and such and knowing you are different/unhappy with it.

*EDIT* Ok I think this thread will be dead before I get done reading on everthing mention like the cat!


Edited by Varanid (03/17/11 10:53 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14140550 - 03/17/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ok I think this thread will be dead before I get done reading on everthing mention like the cat!




Don't worry dude you can do the reading and when you have another idea just post it in the forum.

Keep learning!!


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14141491 - 03/18/11 03:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Read an intro to quantum mechanics/physics/electrodynamics. Long story short (I think) everything is waves (light, radio, water. . . waves), and particles ( I took as matter?). Even light has particles that collide with solid material in a form of energy (sun burn).

Once something is measured it become one or the other. If light is measured it is what it was measured. Color (wave) or particle (energy/electron causing a proton to discharge upon impact?) Not all light but the light that was measured.

The Schrodinger cat is an over simplification of this and more things I have to reread. The cat is stuck in a box with something that will kill it. Until the box is opened the cat is both alive and dead to the universe, until observed (measured?)

After the cat/measurement/observation there the question of where the other state went, ie multiple world/realities/dimensions.

*edit*

I guess taking what I actually understood and going back to the original question I'm going to say the true state of mind would be a fallacy. I would say similar to true skin color tho exponentially more complex. Or true state of mind could be considered true reality, as we have no way of measuring what were looking/talking about or standardizing and comparing it directly its all relative and open to perception.

Next time I trip I'm going to be pondering what quantum events are happening in my brain. I'm going to get mind fucked I believe. Thanks to the OP and all you others. Pretty stimulating discussion.


Edited by Varanid (03/18/11 04:28 AM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14141686 - 03/18/11 05:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




In regards to RP's original question, I question the very notion of "true" state to begin with. We have a "default" state of consciousness which evolution has carved into an amazing tool for survival. That said, because it aids us in survival does not mean that it "is the true state."

Furthermore, your very question in the way you worded it, implies that you believe in a 'true state' of consciousness somewhere, someplace, at somepoint. Perhpas you believe that certain altered states of consciousness, meditative, psychedelice, or otherwise, may grant us truer pictures of reality. Like your original metaphor suggests, seeing things from a different perspective doesn't mean you have seen objective, true, reality--only that you have changed the horizons of your perspective.





Yess, there is no true state of mind. Only states of mind.
If you're perception changes with every nano second of the experience, then which state of mind is the true state?
Pure consciousness, without observation or impression, I do not think would count as a state of mind.


I am curious about the idea that the brian is both the house and creator of consciousness. I'm curious why anyone would believe that. Outside of belief and social conditioning, does anyone have the reasoning behind this?


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14142308 - 03/18/11 09:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One general comment: I agree with most people here that psychedelics allow us to expand/alter our frame-of-reference to see reality differently. However, I adamantly disagree with anyone that wants to label this expansion as a "more objective" state of consciousness. I have already explained my beef with the term objective in a previous post.

Quote:

Varanid said:
The Schrodinger cat is an over simplification of this and more things I have to reread. The cat is stuck in a box with something that will kill it. Until the box is opened the cat is both alive and dead to the universe, until observed (measured?)

After the cat/measurement/observation there the question of where the other state went, ie multiple world/realities/dimensions.




Varanid, I think you would understand Schrodinger's Cat better if you rephrased it in English-Prime, meaning English without the is-of-identity.  I made a thread about it here. This site does a better, more thorough job of explaining E-Prime.

Alright, I think I should give my interpretation of Schrodinger's cat. The basic experiment goes as follows: you place a cat in a box with a substance of some sort that has a 50% of decaying into something radioactive.

Now if you do the mathematics involved, then according strictly to the results of the equations you would have to conclude with equally certainty that the cat has an equal chance of being dead or of being alive.

Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

When you check on the cat, the 'state vector' (the possibilities) collapses into one reality--in regards to the abstract mathematical equations, NOT in regards to reality.

I think the key with understanding QM centers on remembering that mathematics and reality do not equal one another. Mathematics models reality but it does not equal reality in a strict one-to-one isomorphism. If you keep this in mind, it explains why we cannot know if Schrodinger's cat lives or dies until we actually check up on it (until we leave the model of reality and check reality itself).


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14142419 - 03/18/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hey thanks for that Shroomscape that makes a whole lot more sense!

So it seems that when a lot of people start saying that 'quantum mechanics proves that the universe is not ordered' they are making a MASSIVE assumption that mathematics = reality. but in actual fact mathematics and reality are not necessarily the same.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14142549 - 03/18/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup: Any time.

Forgetting that mathematics models reality, sounds as naively forgetful as mistaking the map for the territory, or the recipe for the meal.

But I do want to reiterate that my understanding and comprehension of QM falls short, way short, of having any ability to speak with authority. However, this interpretation seems to work for me and seems to resolve the more 'spooky-spiritual-quasi-scientific-science-fictional-woo-woo' parts of QM.

That said, even without the loose headed thinking that pseudo-scientists add to QM, it still has reality-shattering implications that will blow your mind as much as any psychedelic trip ever could.

In the words of the physicist Richard Feynmen "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14144012 - 03/18/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
So it seems that when a lot of people start saying that 'quantum mechanics proves that the universe is not ordered' they are making a MASSIVE assumption that mathematics = reality. but in actual fact mathematics and reality are not necessarily the same.




Thats an odd statement, Quantum Mechanics is very orderly from my understanding of it. There are just a lot of steps we do not understand, just like in evolution. Evolution is perfectly orderly but we cannot trace every specie back to cause, the fossils aren't there and its extremely complicated - but still orderly in a massive way.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14144256 - 03/18/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
Quantum Mechanics is very orderly from my understanding of it.




Hmm... something's amiss here.

I don't think the 'completeness' of quantum theory remains in question.

Most people consider QM hard to understand because it does not follow the nice and neat path of ordinary logic and common sense--in other words, it does not follow the orderly logic of Newton's mechanistic universe. At the quantum level, the laws of physics do not apply absolutely, but instead work probabilistically.

Thus, this inherent uncertainty lead to Einstein's famous outburst, "God does not play dice!"


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14144327 - 03/18/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

From my understanding of it, it is still orderly.
If one can logically understand something to any degree, it is already categorized and put in order to some extent.

Quantum mechanics is unpredictable as yet but we gave it a name and there is enough groundwork done to hold a very long conversation regarding it


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14144388 - 03/18/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like we have different definitions/standards for the word "orderly." As a theory, I do not doubt that QM seems orderly. But the implications of QM cause me to question the sense of order. When I think orderly, I take it to mean: clear cut, logical, systematic, etc. In other words, when I think orderly, I think: A must lead to B which must lead to C which must lead to D... so forth and so on.

But concepts like entanglement and nonlocality, which defy ANY common sense logic, make me consider QM "unorderly," understood as 'meaning inherently mercurial and unpredictable.' Because QM takes that linear progression of logic, throws it out the window, assumes a world of paradoxes and contradictions, and leaves us in a world of probabilities.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14144458 - 03/18/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14145399 - 03/18/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept




Sorry but your analogy of "going on a plane" or "going to college" do not apply to QM...

Sure you could get sick but this can easily be plotted out in a logical format. Just because you don't know your going to get sick doesn't mean you won't still expose yourself to a virus and get sick... I think your confusing 'randomness' with simple 'ignorance'. Just because you don't know something is going to happen doesn't make it random.

QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14145504 - 03/18/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Alright, I think I should give my interpretation of Schrodinger's cat. The basic experiment goes as follows: you place a cat in a box with a substance of some sort that has a 50% of decaying into something radioactive.

Now if you do the mathematics involved, then according strictly to the results of the equations you would have to conclude with equally certainty that the cat has an equal chance of being dead or of being alive.

Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

When you check on the cat, the 'state vector' (the possibilities) collapses into one reality--in regards to the abstract mathematical equations, NOT in regards to reality.

I think the key with understanding QM centers on remembering that mathematics and reality do not equal one another. Mathematics models reality but it does not equal reality in a strict one-to-one isomorphism. If you keep this in mind, it explains why we cannot know if Schrodinger's cat lives or dies until we actually check up on it (until we leave the model of reality and check reality itself).




It seems like you are saying that the math doesnt support the idea of superposition, but then go on to say that the superposition described by the math is not indicitive of realty... :confused:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14147084 - 03/19/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

IMO, our knowledge of quantum mechanics is so incomplete that we really can't be sure of anything. M theory suggests 11 dimensions, and I have a feeling that each dimension holds a fundamental force/property of space-time(wait.. 11?!). We obviously aren't sure about dark matter or dark energy, which makes up most of the universe, so how can we be sure about the rest of the universe without the entire picture?

That said, quantum uncertainty dictates we can not predict the future with accuracy. If quantum uncertainty was not a factor then we could predict each and every event in the universe, assuming there is no interference from conscious beings. This raises the big question, what is consciousness? Is it a result of the known laws of physics or could it be a fundamental force/property in itself? Does quantum uncertainty just allow consciousness to exist, does QU exist to allow consciousness, or are neither real and we are just wrong about both?

Both QU and consciousness are such deep subjects we could have a forum for each, so I will stick to consciousness for the moment.
What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature. Also IMO, the conscious property of nature is separate from known physical forces, giving structure to the  physical/organic properties of nature. I believe the conscious property of nature could result from, or even cause(doubtful), quantum uncertainty, and would utilize one of the curled(invisible)11 dimensions of space-time.

There is so much we don't know, anything could be possible as long as it makes logical sense, even if we don't know the logic it follows.
Lucky for us, everything has a cause and effect so it is 100% explainable, no mysticism allowd. It would be alot easier if it was though.


Edited by mushiepussy (03/19/11 03:40 AM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14147230 - 03/19/11 05:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

ahchela said:
In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept




Sorry but your analogy of "going on a plane" or "going to college" do not apply to QM...

Sure you could get sick but this can easily be plotted out in a logical format. Just because you don't know your going to get sick doesn't mean you won't still expose yourself to a virus and get sick... I think your confusing 'randomness' with simple 'ignorance'. Just because you don't know something is going to happen doesn't make it random.

QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."




I disagree, there is no way to predict that someone will get sick within a given time. There is no way to even set up a meaningful probability.
It is by definition, random.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Cannot" in such absolute terms. Until that point is proven false there is no way to prove it correct, so if it is true we'll never know.
Our current logic system is called the scientific method, which is almost a poetic way of referring to logic itself. Through the scientific method, anything which can be concieved by the mind - can be explained.

That isn't to say that everything can be explained, just that there is no way to prove within this universe that there is something which cannot be explained or comprehended. If one cannot comprehend it, one would never know for sure. A catch-22


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14147232 - 03/19/11 05:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14147239 - 03/19/11 06:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
There is so much we don't know, anything could be possible as long as it makes logical sense, even if we don't know the logic it follows.
Lucky for us, everything has a cause and effect so it is 100% explainable, no mysticism allowd. It would be alot easier if it was though.




Cutting off mysticism is boxing yourself in, what is the logical point to cutting off an avenue as massive or more so than logic itself?
Mysticism is already weaved through modern thought and science by virtue of its influence on various individuals who brought us where we are. There is no avoiding the unknown :smile:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14147245 - 03/19/11 06:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.




I disagree, even if you had all the massive variables like the shape of this persons immune system, the food in their stomach, what trillions of virus' will be entering their system, the cabin pressure, temperature, and every little thing... there would still be no way of knowing if the individual will become sick.
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela] * 1
    #14147482 - 03/19/11 08:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:

QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




Give me a break....  :rolleyes:  :sherm:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14147703 - 03/19/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
I am curious about the idea that the brian is both the house and creator of consciousness. I'm curious why anyone would believe that. Outside of belief and social conditioning, does anyone have the reasoning behind this?




I don't know how to answer a question if I can't use what I believe, or what society has instilled in me, either threw conforming or rejecting local norms.  I believe there are two possibilities. We are just a very complex series of electrical, chemical, hormonal reactions or something beyond us gave us our form of consciousness. Where do we get it from in your opinion?

Quote:

ShroomScape said:

But concepts like entanglement and nonlocality, which defy ANY common sense logic, make me consider QM "unorderly," understood as 'meaning inherently mercurial and unpredictable.' Because QM takes that linear progression of logic, throws it out the window, assumes a world of paradoxes and contradictions, and leaves us in a world of probabilities.



Quote:

durantz said:

Entanglement and non locality made sense but I tried to read them like they they were different that anything I knew. I'm going to have to reread everything again obviously. I said something along the lines of that last sentence to a shrink and he said I was some type of anti-social personality that used to be a type of sociopath haha

I rely on math for provable references but know it isn't reality. I had a talk with a girl once who wanted to be average. I just joked and told her that was just the answer to a math equation. She didn't get it till I reminded her you can get a number for the average that wasn't even in the population of numbers.

Quote:

ahchela said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.




I disagree, even if you had all the massive variables like the shape of this persons immune system, the food in their stomach, what trillions of virus' will be entering their system, the cabin pressure, temperature, and every little thing... there would still be no way of knowing if the individual will become sick.
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




The predictability could be translated by the probability. We can't tell the future the only think we can do is measure quantifiable variable and try to give the odds it will happen again.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14147790 - 03/19/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I screwed up the quotes sorry all my post is mixed in Ill readjust it later


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14148805 - 03/19/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."




Haha, I don't feel comfortable when (implicitly)referred to as some kind of authority on QM. That said, if you changed your statement into E-Prime (dropping the is-of-identity), then I would fully agree with it. 

Quote:

DieCommie said:
It seems like you are saying that the math doesnt support the idea of superposition, but then go on to say that the superposition described by the math is not indicitive of realty... :confused:




Perhaps I did not speak clearly. The math supports the idea of superposition but we cannot mistake our mathematical model for reality itself. The idea of superposition works well because it seems to explain what happens. BUT, whether or not our mathematical model, actually reflects reality in a one-to-one isomorphic way, we can never know.

For example: in the same way that we have one set of mathematical equations and experiments to verify that electrons act like particles, we also have a different, yet equally valid, set of mathematical equations and experiments to verify that electrons act like waves. Thus, we can describe electrons as acting like waves or particles with our scientific models, but we can never know how well our model reflects reality. 

Quote:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.



Could you elaborate on this?

Quote:

I disagree, there is no way to predict that someone will get sick within a given time. There is no way to even set up a meaningful probability. It is by definition, random.



When we talk of someone coming down with an illness, we can speak in probabilities, specifically between 1 and 99%. We can say that someone has a good chance (above 50%) of getting sick, but we cannot know ahead of time whether or not that event happens. Whereas when I think of something occurring randomly, I think of something that  we cannot probabilistically. For example, dropping a glass which shatters on the floor. Where the pieces go, the shape of the pieces, etc, all seems random to me. (Theoretically, you can go back and retroactively analyzed the data to create a model to fit it, but you can't tell me ahead of time exactly how the event will pan out. Hence, it seems random to me.)

Quote:

ahchela said:
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time, and that two particles separated by large distances can communicate INSTANTLY. Sorry, but, concepts like those bend and twist (ordinary) logic inside-out. I cannot imagine that a private school, of any sort, instilled this kind of logic in someone to the point where it seems intuitive to them.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14148953 - 03/19/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14148961 - 03/19/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature. Also IMO, the conscious property of nature is separate from known physical forces, giving structure to the  physical/organic properties of nature. I believe the conscious property of nature could result from, or even cause(doubtful), quantum uncertainty, and would utilize one of the curled(invisible)11 dimensions of space-time.

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149179 - 03/19/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.



Could you elaborate on this?






Its in refrence to this statement you made,  Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

If that were true, then what of the bell inequalities?  The Bell Theorem states "No physical theory of local Hidden Variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of Quantum Mechanics. "  What you are claiming here is that there is indeed a hidden variable, the variable which describes the cat actually being alive or dead.  That has been categorically shown to be inconsistent with quantum mechanical theory.  A superposition is not a single state with our ignorance making it unknown.

Im not sure how familiar you are with the Bell theorem, http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149389 - 03/19/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:

Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time, and that two particles separated by large distances can communicate INSTANTLY. Sorry, but, concepts like those bend and twist (ordinary) logic inside-out. I cannot imagine that a private school, of any sort, instilled this kind of logic in someone to the point where it seems intuitive to them.




Yeah, that makes sense to me man. What so crazy about particles occupying multiple places? Or particles communicating over distance? Causation traveling backwards. To be fair these are very common concepts in eastern mystic thought, so it could be said that they don't seem out of place to me from that influence.
I was home schooled dude :thumbup:

I'm still not convinced that illness has anything to do with probablity, there is no way to put a measure on whether or not I will get sick in the next month. One can take a statistical average of how often I get sick, but that would not apply to the state my mind/body are in now.


Edited by ahchela (03/19/11 04:58 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149416 - 03/19/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.




Its interesting, personally I have no worthy comment.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149475 - 03/19/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I realize this will sound like a cop out and for that I have to apologize. I won't have internet access for a handful of days and I have to leave here soon anyway--but I did want to try and at least post something.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.




For information on backwards flowing causation read chapter 20, Star Makers? from the following link: RAW's Quantum Psychology. If you don't want to read the whole chapter, at least read pages 172 to the rest of the chapter. 

Quote:

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.



I wanted to comment on it but I ran out of time. Maybe make a new thread devoted solely to that topic?

Quote:

If that were true, then what of the bell inequalities?  The Bell Theorem states "No physical theory of local Hidden Variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of Quantum Mechanics. "  What you are claiming here is that there is indeed a hidden variable, the variable which describes the cat actually being alive or dead.  That has been categorically shown to be inconsistent with quantum mechanical theory.  A superposition is not a single state with our ignorance making it unknown.

Im not sure how familiar you are with the Bell theorem, http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm




Give me a few days to get back to you. Once I have internet access I'll look over your link and give you a better response. But, in the meantime, checking out the same link as above to RAW's book. Chapter 22, page 187, has a chapter on the debate over whether or not quantum mechanics needs to add something of a Hidden Variable. I agree with RAW, who does not believe in the Hidden Variable theory--so, something doesn't seem quite right if you think that I have tried to advocate that position.

Quote:

What so crazy about particles occupying multiple places? Or particles communicating over distance? I was home schooled dude :thumbup:




Well, if I told you that "I am both in the United States and in Australia at the same time," that wouldn't sound astonishing to you?

Keep the discussion going everyone, I have really enjoyed the back and forth. :thumbup:

Five shrooms for everyone once I get back in town. :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149572 - 03/19/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I realize this will sound like a cop out and for that I have to apologize. I won't have internet access for a handful of days and I have to leave here soon anyway--but I did want to try and at least post something.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.




For information on backwards flowing causation read chapter 20, Star Makers? from the following link: RAW's Quantum Psychology. If you don't want to read the whole chapter, at least read pages 172 to the rest of the chapter. 

Quote:

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.



I wanted to comment on it but I ran out of time. Maybe make a new thread devoted solely to that topic?






Awesome, thanks for the link. I love reading about this stuff and I can never find alot of info. I'll polish up the consciousness post and do some research, and have a nice fresh thread for ya when you get back:thumbup:

Have fun wherever your goin-vibes


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy] * 2
    #14149615 - 03/19/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature.




But how do you account for Libet's neuroscience experiments that demonstrate we don't have free will in the classic sense?

IMO it makes more sense to say that if we developed a computer that exactly duplicated the human brain in all its functionality, it would have to be conscious.  No need for any extra mysterious physical force called consciousness; instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14149677 - 03/19/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14149708 - 03/19/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Beautiful thread mates :thumbup: same great quotes in here. I agree with the OP, its just hard to wrap ones mind around the fuck that its all subjective. one cannot truly ever accomplish an objective POV and when this basks in the mind for a bit, the world unravels itself to loook as though nothing is certain. That we are merely products of our enviroment.

being a human is a trip


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14149840 - 03/19/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

But how do you account for Libet's neuroscience experiments that demonstrate we don't have free will in the classic sense?

IMO it makes more sense to say that if we developed a computer that exactly duplicated the human brain in all its functionality, it would have to be conscious.  No need for any extra mysterious physical force called consciousness; instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.




This makes sense, but that doesn't make it true. His experiment didn't indicate to me that free will does not exist. It seems from my perspective that Libet jumped on the idea.
It is definitely true that individuals act according to their subconscious mind for most of their lives, and possibly (for some) the entirety of their lives.

On the other hand there is still no way to link the Cause of consciousness or subconsciousness to the brain muscle.
It is also possible that the same chemical and physical reactions in our brain which change our thoughts/feelings/actions are caused by our subconscious - even to the point of brain damage resulting from trauma.
The link between our thoughts (conscious or subconscious) and the world around us, has yet to be clarified. If there is some irrefutable evidence that our thoughts are not the Cause of events, I am unaware of this.

What I'm trying to say is that the machine through which we interact with our body and the physical world, has yet been definitively proven to be the primary Cause of consciousness. Libet only reaffirms the importance of the subconscious mind
Would a robot which simulates the brain to its exactitude have consciousness? Unfortunately theres no way to know without actually being that robot


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14149949 - 03/19/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.

But is it? I will use watson as an example. You could say watson is much more efficient and complex when it comes to memory, analyisis of data, and raw computation. But it is not conscious of course.

So are you saying that an object needs to have multiple complex functions to attain consciousness? I don't think this is the case,
bacteria is about as simple of an organism as it gets(much simpler than a computer), so is bacteria conscious?

IMO, the answer is yes, however the degree of this consciousness is exponetially lower than that in humans. This would mean consciousness would have to be a property of biological organisms, which is my argument. It doesn't seem very far fetched to me, life is so radically different from the rest of the known universe, why wouldn't it have different fundamental properties?

I believe in the coming years something along these lines will be discovered, we have just started to walk the trail of discovery after a slow crawl from the beginning. Nobody knows how far the trail goes, but everyday we gain more speed.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149976 - 03/19/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

@ahchela: yes, it's currently unprovable either way.

@mushiepussy: I was referring to human-level consciousness in that statement; I do agree with you that even bacteria have a a degree of consciousness as a general property that can be applied to anything including the Universe itself.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14150068 - 03/19/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Well, if I told you that "I am both in the United States and in Australia at the same time," that wouldn't sound astonishing to you?

Keep the discussion going everyone, I have really enjoyed the back and forth. :thumbup:

Five shrooms for everyone once I get back in town. :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:




Sorry I missed this one.
If someone told me that, I would think either

A) They're bsing or using an analogy
B) They're psychotic
C) They're telling the truth

As crazy an idea as it is, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible. That isn't to say I think it is possible, I don't know :shrug:

This conversation has been a great way to start my pre/post work cannabis sessions


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14150101 - 03/19/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hmm. Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit. we might not understand it , but if we could prove that its not subject to the forces of the universe, its just information, i wouldnt think its too unplausible.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14150109 - 03/19/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Or perhaps nonlocality is a product of space/time being just a construct of our minds... in reality everything is One and the physical universe we perceive is merely a holographic illusion.  :gethigh:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14150117 - 03/19/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:pipesmoke:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14150120 - 03/19/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit.




Actually it is.  Information exchange is bound by the speed of light (if you accept the postulates of relativity and causality).  The idea that mass is bound by the speed of light is contained within this.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14150152 - 03/19/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well if space/time is a construct of our minds, it makes sense why we can talk about it so much


Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit.




Actually it is.  Information exchange is bound by the speed of light (if you accept the postulates of relativity and causality).  The idea that mass is bound by the speed of light is contained within this.




That would be hard to prove, it could just be that our conscious acceptance and organization of information is bound by time. The actual impression could be beyond the idea of time.
I do think space/time relate to the acceptance and organization of information exchange, but am not sure whether or not the travel and initial impression would be affected.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14150188 - 03/19/11 07:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Its not hard to prove at all.  Its very easy to prove - it requires only algebra, and the postulates of relativity.

If you accept the postulates of relativity, then causality necessitates that any and all information transfer be bound by the speed of light.  If you want to argue for information transfer occurring faster than the speed of light then you must abandon either the postulates of relativity or causality (or both).


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14150337 - 03/19/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Im not sure if Libet's experiment is truly relavent to the definition of free will that I am using.
I mean it like this-
A rock and man sit on the edge of a cliff. The man jumps off, the rock stays there until gravity causes a land slide.
We have the ability to cause, other matter has only the ability to to be affected(and cause by being affected, but never objectively)

But I do love that expirement, wierd stuff.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Its not hard to prove at all.  Its very easy to prove - it requires only algebra, and the postulates of relativity.

If you accept the postulates of relativity, then causality necessitates that any and all information transfer be bound by the speed of light.  If you want to argue for information transfer occurring faster than the speed of light then you must abandon either the postulates of relativity or causality (or both).




I think it would be useful to add that the speed of light is subject to change with the energy equilibrium levels of the universe, most likely due to the higgs particle/field or the properties of the fabric of space-time.
A couple billion years ago the speed of light was not 300000km/s.
Theoretically.


Edited by mushiepussy (03/19/11 07:52 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14152341 - 03/20/11 04:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

All the Libet experiment proved was that there was electrical activity preceding a conscious action It doesnt prove anything about its relation to the consciousness of the mind and its role in the process of thought.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14152506 - 03/20/11 06:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
All the Libet experiment proved was that there was electrical activity preceding a conscious action It doesnt prove anything about its relation to the consciousness of the mind and its role in the process of thought.




What it showed is that we can predict, based on electrical activity, when a decision is made before the person is consciously aware of making the decision.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14152536 - 03/20/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14152546 - 03/20/11 06:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It means that the decision is essentially made before you're consciously aware of it (since we can predict the decision based on the electrical activity with great accuracy), and such a decision isn't made "freely" at least in the normal sense of the term.  Libet does still leave room for conscious vetoing power, though--in other words if you've unconsciously made a decision you can still consciously decide not to do it.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14152593 - 03/20/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It means that the decision is essentially made before you're consciously aware of it




What level of consciousness are you talking about though?

It also seems kinda pointless what you are saying... it's sounds like this. "Before you make a decision, something happens in your brain"...

Although I do tend to agree that there is no free will in the traditional sense.

but we need to do a lot more research into these brain events before we can use them as conclusive evidence.


Edited by durantz (03/20/11 07:16 AM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14152657 - 03/20/11 07:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You edited you response at least four times by now :lol:

The way the experiment is set up you already consciously know your gonna push the button its only a question of when, That initial burst of activity preceding the recognition of the thought by the consciousness could just as easily be the spark behind the truly random nature of the decision and would have no bearing on the freedom of the action cause you already consciously decided on it the second you started the experiment.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14154245 - 03/20/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown :shrug: He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.

So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14154551 - 03/20/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown :shrug: He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.

So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol




I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14155406 - 03/20/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

mushiepussy said:
This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown :shrug: He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.

So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol




I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.




A similar phenomenon happens in our everyday decision making. Our subconscious knows what we will do before we actually do it.



--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14155462 - 03/20/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

.


Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/20/11 07:12 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14155792 - 03/20/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As to the OP, I think any means of altering your perception could be useful, some more than others. Shrooms are my perception alterer of choice, and I find my trips very useful to my outlook on life.

Mushrooms take your reality and shakes it to the core, making you forget about your own faulty logic and excuses for your problems.
Every perception you make is like a first impression, and your thoughts of that perception are unbiased allowing you to free yourself of excuses for your wrong behavior. I think one of the
hardest things about thinking clearly is the bias you subconsciously give all of your thoughts based on desires. Mushrooms free yourself of
this infected reality and give you a shiny new one, where your perceptions are truth.

Weed just makes me forget about all my problems, which can be useful too :grin:


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14155807 - 03/20/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
.




Hehe. Sorry. :blush: Started from the end of the thread, posted and then went to the beginning. I guess I didn't get any precognition of reading the same thing later on. Oh well. The video doesn't hurt. And the series is worth the watch IMO. :grin:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


Edited by dustinthewind13 (03/20/11 08:58 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14156215 - 03/20/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.




This depends on your definition of ESP. I'm a materialist but I believe in ESP=type events. But I think they have a physical cause.

It gets down to how well the brain can process probability and then the ability to go with the brains answer instead of ignoring it.

I was having some very intense ESP moments yesterday but I was aware of the cognitive steps I went through to achieve them.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14156243 - 03/20/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What is an ESP moment?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14156305 - 03/20/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.



That electrical activity is used to make accurate predictions of what you are going to choose long (seconds) before you are consciously aware of it.  I would say this impedes your ability to freely make a choice:shrug:  When the choice is to be made is a cop out for you to cling to any kind of evidence you think you have to refute the Libet experiment.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


Edited by Cognitive_Shift (03/20/11 09:31 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14156316 - 03/20/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hrmmm for me it was accurately predicting the orientation of a square letter "E"

There are 4 possiblities and I was predicting the orientations quite consistently.

But the reason for this was because another human being was having to choose the 'random' orientation. So all I had to do was correctly identify a couple after she showed them to me then I could start working out what kind of pattern she was using. Then the more I predicted right the easier it became... this would appear like I was reading her mind but I wasn't. I was simply putting myself into her position and understanding how she was coming to her decisions... I don't think I could of done this with a computer programmed for random generation.

Is this ESP?


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14156498 - 03/20/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.



That electrical activity is used to make accurate predictions of what you are going to choose long (seconds) before you are consciously aware of it.  I would say this impedes your ability to freely make a choice:shrug:  When the choice is to be made is a cop out for you to cling to any kind of evidence you think you have to refute the Libet experiment.




You think they werent full well aware of the fact that they were going to be pushing the button? I think your ignoring that aspect of the experiment, the reason behind these precognitive sparks can not be conclusively proven as a unwillfull decision being made on any level. Theres also a predictive spark in electrical activity when a subject is faced with a random image popping up on a blank screen milliseconds before it appears. Which goes to show that the readiness potential Libet found could and most likely is completely unrelated to the way the decision is made.

Ignoring that is copping out, do you ever think about when your going to randomly initiate such a simple action? No you dont, but its already been brought to your attention and verified consciously that yes you are going to be pushing it.


Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/21/11 01:19 AM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14169753 - 03/23/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have returned, but after reading all the posts, I feel way in over my head. This thread has certainly evolved from where it started. I will try to come back to the thread sometime tonight and add something productive--ya know, unlike this meaningless current post.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14169795 - 03/23/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned...


:brbjesus:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Poid]
    #14169816 - 03/23/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned, but after reading all the posts, I feel way in over my head. This thread has certainly evolved from where it started. I will try to come back to the thread sometime tonight and add something productive--ya know, unlike this meaningless current post.



Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned...


:brbjesus:




So if this Jesus guy existed, and came back now, wonder what he would have to say? Maybe the conversation continued for 2,000 years after he left and hes got to catch up?

Jesus is outdated :pipesmoke:


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14169991 - 03/23/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
So if this Jesus guy existed, and came back now, wonder what he would have to say?


"I shouldn't have saved any of you fuckers...:picard:"


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Poid]
    #14170478 - 03/23/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ahchela said:
So if this Jesus guy existed, and came back now, wonder what he would have to say?


"I shouldn't have saved any of you fuckers...:picard:"




:lol:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14172049 - 03/23/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned, but after reading all the posts, I feel way in over my head. This thread has certainly evolved from where it started. I will try to come back to the thread sometime tonight and add something productive--ya know, unlike this meaningless current post.




I agree dude. You need to take time to let everything settle in. I found this thread very helpful though.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14172380 - 03/23/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.



I'd like to hear more about this.

Quote:


A similar phenomenon happens in our everyday decision making. Our subconscious knows what we will do before we actually do it.






After watching this video, which I presume reflect Libet's experiment as well, my first and immediate thought goes like this: My consciousness comes from my brain, at least in part. When I decide to do something, that doesn't mean the decision manifests itself instantaneously. In other words, perhaps what they have measured amounts to nothing more than the duration between making the decision and executing the decision. :shrug:

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.




This depends on your definition of ESP. I'm a materialist but I believe in ESP=type events. But I think they have a physical cause.

It gets down to how well the brain can process probability and then the ability to go with the brains answer instead of ignoring it.

I was having some very intense ESP moments yesterday but I was aware of the cognitive steps I went through to achieve them.




The idea of ESP phenomena intrigues me. I do not draw a distinction between mind and matter. As such, I do think the mind can influence matter to some degree. By what mechanism, I cannot say. But, we clearly haven't exhausted the realm of the knowable yet and it wouldn't surprise me if we discovered that the mind could mold or manipulate reality.


Quote:

ahchela said:
Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned, but after reading all the posts, I feel way in over my head. This thread has certainly evolved from where it started. I will try to come back to the thread sometime tonight and add something productive--ya know, unlike this meaningless current post.



Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I have returned...


:brbjesus:




So if this Jesus guy existed, and came back now, wonder what he would have to say? Maybe the conversation continued for 2,000 years after he left and hes got to catch up?

Jesus is outdated :pipesmoke:




Jesus saves! Passes to Moses. Moses shoots. Scores!

Quote:

durantz said:
I agree dude. You need to take time to let everything settle in. I found this thread very helpful though.



:thumbup: Solid thread all around.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14172603 - 03/23/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Not sure where this was left off:

The existence of free will? Was that the underlying implication of Libet's experiment?

Personally I don't even know what free will is... is that a bad sign?

My idea is that escaping the influence of personality entirely would bring one into a place where they would be incapable of even conceiving "will" or action/decision/thought.
Rising above the influences of our subconscious mind...

Is free will supposed to be the conscious movement of our personality? Making conscious, subconsciously influenced, decisions?
Like driving a car?

I could use some clarification as to what 'free will' is


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/23/11 09:06 PM)


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14172794 - 03/23/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.



I'd like to hear more about this.




Here-- http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001397537


The readiness potential Libet found also applies to stimuli the subject is about to experience such as the type I mentioned above, IMO that means its not related to any measure of freewill in the slightest.


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