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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
#14150337 - 03/19/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Im not sure if Libet's experiment is truly relavent to the definition of free will that I am using. I mean it like this- A rock and man sit on the edge of a cliff. The man jumps off, the rock stays there until gravity causes a land slide. We have the ability to cause, other matter has only the ability to to be affected(and cause by being affected, but never objectively)
But I do love that expirement, wierd stuff.
Quote:
DieCommie said: Its not hard to prove at all. Its very easy to prove - it requires only algebra, and the postulates of relativity.
If you accept the postulates of relativity, then causality necessitates that any and all information transfer be bound by the speed of light. If you want to argue for information transfer occurring faster than the speed of light then you must abandon either the postulates of relativity or causality (or both).
I think it would be useful to add that the speed of light is subject to change with the energy equilibrium levels of the universe, most likely due to the higgs particle/field or the properties of the fabric of space-time. A couple billion years ago the speed of light was not 300000km/s. Theoretically.
Edited by mushiepussy (03/19/11 07:52 PM)
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
#14152341 - 03/20/11 04:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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All the Libet experiment proved was that there was electrical activity preceding a conscious action It doesnt prove anything about its relation to the consciousness of the mind and its role in the process of thought.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14152506 - 03/20/11 06:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: All the Libet experiment proved was that there was electrical activity preceding a conscious action It doesnt prove anything about its relation to the consciousness of the mind and its role in the process of thought.
What it showed is that we can predict, based on electrical activity, when a decision is made before the person is consciously aware of making the decision.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
#14152536 - 03/20/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14152546 - 03/20/11 06:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It means that the decision is essentially made before you're consciously aware of it (since we can predict the decision based on the electrical activity with great accuracy), and such a decision isn't made "freely" at least in the normal sense of the term. Libet does still leave room for conscious vetoing power, though--in other words if you've unconsciously made a decision you can still consciously decide not to do it.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
#14152593 - 03/20/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It means that the decision is essentially made before you're consciously aware of it
What level of consciousness are you talking about though?
It also seems kinda pointless what you are saying... it's sounds like this. "Before you make a decision, something happens in your brain"...
Although I do tend to agree that there is no free will in the traditional sense.
but we need to do a lot more research into these brain events before we can use them as conclusive evidence.
Edited by durantz (03/20/11 07:16 AM)
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
#14152657 - 03/20/11 07:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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You edited you response at least four times by now 
The way the experiment is set up you already consciously know your gonna push the button its only a question of when, That initial burst of activity preceding the recognition of the thought by the consciousness could just as easily be the spark behind the truly random nature of the decision and would have no bearing on the freedom of the action cause you already consciously decided on it the second you started the experiment.
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14154245 - 03/20/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.
So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
#14154551 - 03/20/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.
So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol
I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.
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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14155406 - 03/20/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:
mushiepussy said: This principal (from Libet) was talked about by some guy on the Colbert report the other day. He said that they did an experiment using slide shows of pictures with porn randomly mixed in(because it causes a spike in neural activity), and the activity spiked 10 sec before the actual picture was shown He said it had to do with quantum physics but didn't really explain, Colbert cut him off.
So maybe we all have the Force? Sometimes I feel like I do when I'm meditating lol
I read about a similar experiment where the subjects stared at a blank white screen and a picture popped up at random intervals, They all had spikes of activity half second or so before the picture was actually shown, It was as if they could predict in advance when exactly it was going to be shown. Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.
A similar phenomenon happens in our everyday decision making. Our subconscious knows what we will do before we actually do it.
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: dustinthewind13]
#14155462 - 03/20/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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.
Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/20/11 07:12 PM)
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
#14155792 - 03/20/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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As to the OP, I think any means of altering your perception could be useful, some more than others. Shrooms are my perception alterer of choice, and I find my trips very useful to my outlook on life.
Mushrooms take your reality and shakes it to the core, making you forget about your own faulty logic and excuses for your problems. Every perception you make is like a first impression, and your thoughts of that perception are unbiased allowing you to free yourself of excuses for your wrong behavior. I think one of the hardest things about thinking clearly is the bias you subconsciously give all of your thoughts based on desires. Mushrooms free yourself of this infected reality and give you a shiny new one, where your perceptions are truth.
Weed just makes me forget about all my problems, which can be useful too
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dustinthewind13
Fool



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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14155807 - 03/20/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: .
Hehe. Sorry. Started from the end of the thread, posted and then went to the beginning. I guess I didn't get any precognition of reading the same thing later on. Oh well. The video doesn't hurt. And the series is worth the watch IMO. 
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
Edited by dustinthewind13 (03/20/11 08:58 PM)
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durantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: dustinthewind13]
#14156215 - 03/20/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Of course any hint at ESP being a real phenomenon turns a materialist into a rabid dog.
This depends on your definition of ESP. I'm a materialist but I believe in ESP=type events. But I think they have a physical cause.
It gets down to how well the brain can process probability and then the ability to go with the brains answer instead of ignoring it.
I was having some very intense ESP moments yesterday but I was aware of the cognitive steps I went through to achieve them.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
#14156243 - 03/20/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What is an ESP moment?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14156305 - 03/20/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.
That electrical activity is used to make accurate predictions of what you are going to choose long (seconds) before you are consciously aware of it. I would say this impedes your ability to freely make a choice When the choice is to be made is a cop out for you to cling to any kind of evidence you think you have to refute the Libet experiment.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
Edited by Cognitive_Shift (03/20/11 09:31 PM)
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#14156316 - 03/20/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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hrmmm for me it was accurately predicting the orientation of a square letter "E"
There are 4 possiblities and I was predicting the orientations quite consistently.
But the reason for this was because another human being was having to choose the 'random' orientation. So all I had to do was correctly identify a couple after she showed them to me then I could start working out what kind of pattern she was using. Then the more I predicted right the easier it became... this would appear like I was reading her mind but I wasn't. I was simply putting myself into her position and understanding how she was coming to her decisions... I don't think I could of done this with a computer programmed for random generation.
Is this ESP?
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
#14156498 - 03/20/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: And that challenges the notion of free will how? So theres electrical activity before a person consciously comes to a decision. Thats still not predicting when the decision itself was made or how the actual decision was reached, all it could be indicative of is the initial turning of ones awareness to the question itself. Saying these impulses are a indication of the non existence of free will is a massive assumption.
That electrical activity is used to make accurate predictions of what you are going to choose long (seconds) before you are consciously aware of it. I would say this impedes your ability to freely make a choice When the choice is to be made is a cop out for you to cling to any kind of evidence you think you have to refute the Libet experiment.
You think they werent full well aware of the fact that they were going to be pushing the button? I think your ignoring that aspect of the experiment, the reason behind these precognitive sparks can not be conclusively proven as a unwillfull decision being made on any level. Theres also a predictive spark in electrical activity when a subject is faced with a random image popping up on a blank screen milliseconds before it appears. Which goes to show that the readiness potential Libet found could and most likely is completely unrelated to the way the decision is made.
Ignoring that is copping out, do you ever think about when your going to randomly initiate such a simple action? No you dont, but its already been brought to your attention and verified consciously that yes you are going to be pushing it.
Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/21/11 01:19 AM)
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ShroomScape
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14169753 - 03/23/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have returned, but after reading all the posts, I feel way in over my head. This thread has certainly evolved from where it started. I will try to come back to the thread sometime tonight and add something productive--ya know, unlike this meaningless current post.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
#14169795 - 03/23/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomScape said: I have returned...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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