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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14148953 - 03/19/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14148961 - 03/19/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature. Also IMO, the conscious property of nature is separate from known physical forces, giving structure to the  physical/organic properties of nature. I believe the conscious property of nature could result from, or even cause(doubtful), quantum uncertainty, and would utilize one of the curled(invisible)11 dimensions of space-time.

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149179 - 03/19/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.



Could you elaborate on this?






Its in refrence to this statement you made,  Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

If that were true, then what of the bell inequalities?  The Bell Theorem states "No physical theory of local Hidden Variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of Quantum Mechanics. "  What you are claiming here is that there is indeed a hidden variable, the variable which describes the cat actually being alive or dead.  That has been categorically shown to be inconsistent with quantum mechanical theory.  A superposition is not a single state with our ignorance making it unknown.

Im not sure how familiar you are with the Bell theorem, http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149389 - 03/19/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:

Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time, and that two particles separated by large distances can communicate INSTANTLY. Sorry, but, concepts like those bend and twist (ordinary) logic inside-out. I cannot imagine that a private school, of any sort, instilled this kind of logic in someone to the point where it seems intuitive to them.




Yeah, that makes sense to me man. What so crazy about particles occupying multiple places? Or particles communicating over distance? Causation traveling backwards. To be fair these are very common concepts in eastern mystic thought, so it could be said that they don't seem out of place to me from that influence.
I was home schooled dude :thumbup:

I'm still not convinced that illness has anything to do with probablity, there is no way to put a measure on whether or not I will get sick in the next month. One can take a statistical average of how often I get sick, but that would not apply to the state my mind/body are in now.


Edited by ahchela (03/19/11 04:58 PM)


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149416 - 03/19/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.




Its interesting, personally I have no worthy comment.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149475 - 03/19/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I realize this will sound like a cop out and for that I have to apologize. I won't have internet access for a handful of days and I have to leave here soon anyway--but I did want to try and at least post something.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.




For information on backwards flowing causation read chapter 20, Star Makers? from the following link: RAW's Quantum Psychology. If you don't want to read the whole chapter, at least read pages 172 to the rest of the chapter. 

Quote:

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.



I wanted to comment on it but I ran out of time. Maybe make a new thread devoted solely to that topic?

Quote:

If that were true, then what of the bell inequalities?  The Bell Theorem states "No physical theory of local Hidden Variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of Quantum Mechanics. "  What you are claiming here is that there is indeed a hidden variable, the variable which describes the cat actually being alive or dead.  That has been categorically shown to be inconsistent with quantum mechanical theory.  A superposition is not a single state with our ignorance making it unknown.

Im not sure how familiar you are with the Bell theorem, http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm




Give me a few days to get back to you. Once I have internet access I'll look over your link and give you a better response. But, in the meantime, checking out the same link as above to RAW's book. Chapter 22, page 187, has a chapter on the debate over whether or not quantum mechanics needs to add something of a Hidden Variable. I agree with RAW, who does not believe in the Hidden Variable theory--so, something doesn't seem quite right if you think that I have tried to advocate that position.

Quote:

What so crazy about particles occupying multiple places? Or particles communicating over distance? I was home schooled dude :thumbup:




Well, if I told you that "I am both in the United States and in Australia at the same time," that wouldn't sound astonishing to you?

Keep the discussion going everyone, I have really enjoyed the back and forth. :thumbup:

Five shrooms for everyone once I get back in town. :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149572 - 03/19/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
I realize this will sound like a cop out and for that I have to apologize. I won't have internet access for a handful of days and I have to leave here soon anyway--but I did want to try and at least post something.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time

I see where your coming from on the first one, but that has yet to be observed with certainty.

I'm not sure what your talking about with causation flowing backward,
CPT asymetries prevent this.




For information on backwards flowing causation read chapter 20, Star Makers? from the following link: RAW's Quantum Psychology. If you don't want to read the whole chapter, at least read pages 172 to the rest of the chapter. 

Quote:

Nobody had anything to say about this?:lol:
I'm saying consciousness is a force similar to how gravity is a force, just to clarify.



I wanted to comment on it but I ran out of time. Maybe make a new thread devoted solely to that topic?






Awesome, thanks for the link. I love reading about this stuff and I can never find alot of info. I'll polish up the consciousness post and do some research, and have a nice fresh thread for ya when you get back:thumbup:

Have fun wherever your goin-vibes


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy] * 2
    #14149615 - 03/19/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature.




But how do you account for Libet's neuroscience experiments that demonstrate we don't have free will in the classic sense?

IMO it makes more sense to say that if we developed a computer that exactly duplicated the human brain in all its functionality, it would have to be conscious.  No need for any extra mysterious physical force called consciousness; instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14149677 - 03/19/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:popcorn:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14149708 - 03/19/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Beautiful thread mates :thumbup: same great quotes in here. I agree with the OP, its just hard to wrap ones mind around the fuck that its all subjective. one cannot truly ever accomplish an objective POV and when this basks in the mind for a bit, the world unravels itself to loook as though nothing is certain. That we are merely products of our enviroment.

being a human is a trip


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14149840 - 03/19/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

But how do you account for Libet's neuroscience experiments that demonstrate we don't have free will in the classic sense?

IMO it makes more sense to say that if we developed a computer that exactly duplicated the human brain in all its functionality, it would have to be conscious.  No need for any extra mysterious physical force called consciousness; instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.




This makes sense, but that doesn't make it true. His experiment didn't indicate to me that free will does not exist. It seems from my perspective that Libet jumped on the idea.
It is definitely true that individuals act according to their subconscious mind for most of their lives, and possibly (for some) the entirety of their lives.

On the other hand there is still no way to link the Cause of consciousness or subconsciousness to the brain muscle.
It is also possible that the same chemical and physical reactions in our brain which change our thoughts/feelings/actions are caused by our subconscious - even to the point of brain damage resulting from trauma.
The link between our thoughts (conscious or subconscious) and the world around us, has yet to be clarified. If there is some irrefutable evidence that our thoughts are not the Cause of events, I am unaware of this.

What I'm trying to say is that the machine through which we interact with our body and the physical world, has yet been definitively proven to be the primary Cause of consciousness. Libet only reaffirms the importance of the subconscious mind
Would a robot which simulates the brain to its exactitude have consciousness? Unfortunately theres no way to know without actually being that robot


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14149949 - 03/19/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

instead it's inherent in any functionally equivalent complex process.

But is it? I will use watson as an example. You could say watson is much more efficient and complex when it comes to memory, analyisis of data, and raw computation. But it is not conscious of course.

So are you saying that an object needs to have multiple complex functions to attain consciousness? I don't think this is the case,
bacteria is about as simple of an organism as it gets(much simpler than a computer), so is bacteria conscious?

IMO, the answer is yes, however the degree of this consciousness is exponetially lower than that in humans. This would mean consciousness would have to be a property of biological organisms, which is my argument. It doesn't seem very far fetched to me, life is so radically different from the rest of the known universe, why wouldn't it have different fundamental properties?

I believe in the coming years something along these lines will be discovered, we have just started to walk the trail of discovery after a slow crawl from the beginning. Nobody knows how far the trail goes, but everyday we gain more speed.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14149976 - 03/19/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

@ahchela: yes, it's currently unprovable either way.

@mushiepussy: I was referring to human-level consciousness in that statement; I do agree with you that even bacteria have a a degree of consciousness as a general property that can be applied to anything including the Universe itself.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14150068 - 03/19/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Well, if I told you that "I am both in the United States and in Australia at the same time," that wouldn't sound astonishing to you?

Keep the discussion going everyone, I have really enjoyed the back and forth. :thumbup:

Five shrooms for everyone once I get back in town. :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:




Sorry I missed this one.
If someone told me that, I would think either

A) They're bsing or using an analogy
B) They're psychotic
C) They're telling the truth

As crazy an idea as it is, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible. That isn't to say I think it is possible, I don't know :shrug:

This conversation has been a great way to start my pre/post work cannabis sessions


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14150101 - 03/19/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hmm. Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit. we might not understand it , but if we could prove that its not subject to the forces of the universe, its just information, i wouldnt think its too unplausible.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14150109 - 03/19/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Or perhaps nonlocality is a product of space/time being just a construct of our minds... in reality everything is One and the physical universe we perceive is merely a holographic illusion.  :gethigh:


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: deCypher]
    #14150117 - 03/19/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:pipesmoke:


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14150120 - 03/19/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit.




Actually it is.  Information exchange is bound by the speed of light (if you accept the postulates of relativity and causality).  The idea that mass is bound by the speed of light is contained within this.


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14150152 - 03/19/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well if space/time is a construct of our minds, it makes sense why we can talk about it so much


Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Well i guess since the information being exchanged does not have mass, it is not restricted by the universal speed limit.




Actually it is.  Information exchange is bound by the speed of light (if you accept the postulates of relativity and causality).  The idea that mass is bound by the speed of light is contained within this.




That would be hard to prove, it could just be that our conscious acceptance and organization of information is bound by time. The actual impression could be beyond the idea of time.
I do think space/time relate to the acceptance and organization of information exchange, but am not sure whether or not the travel and initial impression would be affected.


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14150188 - 03/19/11 07:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Its not hard to prove at all.  Its very easy to prove - it requires only algebra, and the postulates of relativity.

If you accept the postulates of relativity, then causality necessitates that any and all information transfer be bound by the speed of light.  If you want to argue for information transfer occurring faster than the speed of light then you must abandon either the postulates of relativity or causality (or both).


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