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Offlineobladi oblada
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Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality
    #14106612 - 03/11/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

First, in order to understand my proposition, you must understand this analogy of the perception of reality. I came up with this during a mushroom trip, while writing thoughts in my notebook.

Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts. Imagine the point in this space which is you, looking around at all these objects. This view is what you are familiar with, and refer to this setting as a sober state of mind. With psychedelics, you change position in this space, allowing you to see new objects, and to look from a different perspective at the familiar objects which you have come to surround your life with. You can see them differently. This is an altered state of mind.
This altered state is a perfect setting for profound, life-changing discoveries, because you can see what the sober state cannot. Also, you can go about the day in this altered state with brilliant new ideas!

The brain is merely a means of perceiving what is there. We are within the constraints of logic. We may only be seeing a fraction of this space.

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?






Another note: During heavy mushroom trips, I am thrown into a void of nothingness. Darkness. Have any of you ever experienced this? I have also once had the felling that our brain and body limits us, and when we die, we are released into this void and perhaps then we can perceive the darkness and can be everywhere. Maybe its just a failure of the brain to sense anything because of the drugs. Maybe its just a memory failure. That could be possible. Im not saying I am deprived of sense, its more like you go to sleep and when you wake up all you remember is this void.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14106728 - 03/11/11 11:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The survivalist brain shuts out even aesthetics. The world is bland for someone merely surviving. Fear has to go, and the world around you blossoms into something else.

I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: circastes]
    #14107321 - 03/12/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival. And I think it is very important to indulge the psychedelic state because it actually helps to form the sober state and open it up to more possibilities.

I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14107548 - 03/12/11 05:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival.



So far.  The future is being developed right now, some drugs such as Piracetam seem to boost the so called "sober state"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14107726 - 03/12/11 07:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well IMO, the point in that room is not the self, it is just another thought.
otherwise the model which is just a room full of stuff, is not a bad start.

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)

the state of mind, neither True nor not True, deals with the degree of resonance and layering together of stuff. Things get more resonant and layered when stoned, if you want to call that truer you could but some would argue that less layers and less meaning (resonance) is more true, and that seems a bit weird but understandable...


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Offlinegodplayssims
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14108837 - 03/12/11 12:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival.




Completely agree with this.
I feel like the sober state also channels the ego into existence.

"With regard to the superstitions of logicians, I shall never tire of emphasizing a small terse fact, which these superstitious minds hate to concede-namely, that a thought comes when "it" wishes, and not when "I" wish, so that it is a falsification of the facts of the case to say that the subject "I" is the condition of the predicate "think." It thinks; but that is "it" is precisely the famous old "ego" is only a supposition, and assuredly not an "immediate certainty. After all, one has even gone too far with this "it thinks"-even the "it" contains an interpretation of the process, and does not belong to the process itself. One infers here according to the grammatical habit: "Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently..." (Geneology of Morals)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: godplayssims]
    #14109246 - 03/12/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

the sober state is good for driving. for repeating a learned task mindlessly.
some parts of survival require that.
other instances of threat require a shift our of normal awareness for survival (thinking out of the box), especially when there is nothing familiar to connect with.


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14109432 - 03/12/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.

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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14112066 - 03/12/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
The survivalist brain shuts out even aesthetics. The world is bland for someone merely surviving. Fear has to go, and the world around you blossoms into something else.

I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.



Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




The sober state is probably the state that allows for greatest chance of survival. And I think it is very important to indulge the psychedelic state because it actually helps to form the sober state and open it up to more possibilities.

I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...




I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.


Quote:

circastes said:
I have a curiousity - and so did Terrence McKenna (in a different way) - that we can turn on the psilocybin brain without ingesting the chemical, as a kind of higher circuit of consciousness awaiting us as part of our evolution. That is to say, I wonder if you can trip forever once you have the right thoughts and intention in your mind.




Interesting. Where did you find this from terence?


--------------------
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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14112078 - 03/12/11 11:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Well IMO, the point in that room is not the self, it is just another thought.
otherwise the model which is just a room full of stuff, is not a bad start.

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)

the state of mind, neither True nor not True, deals with the degree of resonance and layering together of stuff. Things get more resonant and layered when stoned, if you want to call that truer you could but some would argue that less layers and less meaning (resonance) is more true, and that seems a bit weird but understandable...




This could be true. I still think i dont fully understand what is the ego.

And i dont understand the last paragraph.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.




Precisely!


--------------------
:shroompick: :regularshroom: :amanita2: :supershroom: :mushroomgrow: :mushroom2: :pinkshroom: :1up: :greenshroom:

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14112496 - 03/13/11 12:27 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

Interesting. Where did you find this from terence?



His idea is that we were on mushrooms for I guess thousands of years and this caused our evolution. The brain evolved with psilocybin in mind, it structured itself around the psilocybin intake. Then it disappeared due to climate changes in many areas and we all went back to the territorial primate way of thinking. But actually this is where Terence stops and I begin - and I say the psilocybin brain can be turned on again, certainly its ecstasy and its love and peace can be turned on. It's perceptions, perhaps, in a lesser way (ie. no OEVs). Terence, at least, considered taking psilocybin a remedy to our runaway global crisis - which was all caused by a huge brain suddenly switching back to an older way of thinking and perceiving.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: circastes]
    #14113089 - 03/13/11 06:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.




It may seem like it is all lost but the things you see and experience change the way your brain works for a long time afterwards.

I do understand what you mean though. In the psychadelic state you actually live and breathe that knowledge but when you return to being sober you can only really 'believe' in that knowledge. You lose the connection you had with that alternative thought process.

But do you truly believe that once you've seen the world through a different light that this will not influence you for the rest of your life?

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14113138 - 03/13/11 07:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

I hate that during a trip, i seem to know everything, and i cant wait to go back to the sober world with this huge ingisht but then i just feel all of the knowledge being lost as i come down.





I know that feeling.
However I do not think anything is lost, it is just that we clutch towards temporal manifestations of the feeling - such as ideas and emotions. These are forgotten.
The overall experience though is like a stone in the water, its ripples will be more obvious in time and more intricate as it interacts with other ripples.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I think the reason you think the point is the self or ego is that you have a certain defensive tension about it. (that defensive tension is also just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations)





Right on, you expressed that magnificently



*edit: the brain is only a machine. A series of switches that exist between the physical body and Soul. Put drugs in the body, it interacts with the brain, this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object, for the brain does not percieve - it only transmits information.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (03/13/11 07:20 AM)

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Offlineobladi oblada
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14116617 - 03/13/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
His idea is that we were on mushrooms for I guess thousands of years and this caused our evolution. The brain evolved with psilocybin in mind, it structured itself around the psilocybin intake. Then it disappeared due to climate changes in many areas and we all went back to the territorial primate way of thinking. But actually this is where Terence stops and I begin - and I say the psilocybin brain can be turned on again, certainly its ecstasy and its love and peace can be turned on. It's perceptions, perhaps, in a lesser way (ie. no OEVs). Terence, at least, considered taking psilocybin a remedy to our runaway global crisis - which was all caused by a huge brain suddenly switching back to an older way of thinking and perceiving.




I remember that now.

However i think that the chemical is required. Sure, euphoria can be triggered, but not in the way that the chemical psilocybin does.

Quote:

durantz said:

It may seem like it is all lost but the things you see and experience change the way your brain works for a long time afterwards.

I do understand what you mean though. In the psychadelic state you actually live and breathe that knowledge but when you return to being sober you can only really 'believe' in that knowledge. You lose the connection you had with that alternative thought process.

But do you truly believe that once you've seen the world through a different light that this will not influence you for the rest of your life?




Its like a dream. I cant remember. I am glad that I write some things down, but its hard to translate feelings into words, let alone feelings from the world of psilocybin.

Quote:


*edit: the brain is only a machine. A series of switches that exist between the physical body and Soul. Put drugs in the body, it interacts with the brain, this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object, for the brain does not percieve - it only transmits information.




I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.

I dont understand "this activity is monitored by the individual but the individual is not comprised of this activity.
Relating the activity of the brain to perception is to limit yourself into being a physical object"

Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14116634 - 03/13/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?




Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....

Edited by durantz (03/13/11 09:41 PM)

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14117905 - 03/14/11 02:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:
I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.





Thats pretty similar to what I was trying to say, that the brain is a middle man and not Soul or reality.


Quote:


Also, isnt percieving the same as transmitting information?




I think if you want to use that definition it would work.
The word information sort of implies logic, perception goes beyond that, but if you view all the senses (conscious and sub) as channels for information - then I would agree that perception is transmitting information or arriving at it.



Quote:

durantz said:

Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....




Well that would have more to do with conversation or logic than the general experience of reality. Personally I wouldn't say logic gets involved until the percieved information is organized in some way.

Perception could also exist beyond logic, but I agree that perception itself is a subjective illusion. Reality or the poetical term 'Soul' would along my understanding - exist beyond either perception or logic - in a state which could not be communicated or put to words.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (03/14/11 02:19 AM)

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: obladi oblada]
    #14117962 - 03/14/11 02:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Well...couldn't we argue that nothing actually exists, because these physical objects are just what you said, thoughts?

Kind of like the idea behind the movie, The Matrix. Nothing is actually physically real.

Entirely possible. And no one would know.

Not even me. Yet it's a theory that bothers some physicists to absolute hell.

But it's observed as such, at least at very small scales. So...do we live in a hologram?

Read Brian Greene's book The Hidden Reality. :smile:


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14118214 - 03/14/11 06:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

obladi oblada said:

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Its our "normal" state without the intake of foreign substances that change  function/s of our body.
Once we do that we changed our state. Even coffee has the ability to change our perception. I was told perception is reality. I don't think our minds aren't capable of truly realizing reality. Can you imagine what would happen if you could know everything that was going on in the world at once for just one second? It would still be off due to ideas, morals, beliefs we have in our head that would guide how we perceived it/ translated it but we would still have a blured perception. Every thing we know is a set of translations. Our eyes read light, which is sent to our brain, which processes it and delivers a picture. Kinda like our computer monitors show a picture. Same with sound, touch, smell and taste.


Quote:

durantz said:
I don't think we ever go back to 100% the way we were before a trip...




I don't think so either you cant unlearn or unthink something even if you don't consciously rememer it.

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Its like looking at the stars all your life from earth and only
knowing constellations like the big dipper or what ever, and then
going to a different planet where the stars are flipped and
flopped around due to your new perspective, and you get to make
new constellations.




That how I look at tripping. It allows me too escape my perception beyond normal intoxicants look at things if it be myself, the position I am in, those around me.



*I think of the brain more as between thoughts and reality.*

The brains electrical impulses are our thoughts, our translation of the environment around us. When I have seizure I have no thoughts in my head I just "know" and reality is def different. Feels like I'm living the exact same thing for the second time except a life time later. Neurologist explained it as a delay in my brains processing of information. I am living it twice. Once in reality and the other my perception which is only a nanosecond off. All that is in a malfunction of my brain and its electrical circuits.



Quote:

durantz said:

Transmitting information is even more inaccurate than perceiving it... This is because we have to translate the perception (which is inaccurate and subjective) into language (which is inaccurate and subjective). And then someone has to perceive the transmission which subjects the information to a third phase of inaccuracy and subjectivity....




I agree.anytime you have to pass threw a "stage" accuracy falls. Going from my thoughts, to words, to someone elses ears to be translated by their brain THEN the concious mind steps in and tries to figure out what the other said.



*Perception could also exist beyond logic, but I agree that perception itself is a subjective illusion. Reality or the poetical term 'Soul' would along my understanding - exist beyond either perception or logic - in a state which could not be communicated or put to words.*

Perception does exist beyond and without logic IMO look at mental illnesses. Sometimes our mids can have a seperation from logic and reality just as people in psychotic states think they are whatever they think, everyones out to get them, they have super powers. I have a childhood friend who recently was thinking she was a famous rapper that had been ripped off by "them". She truely belived it and didn't think I was me. She still had logic tho flawed and that was reality for her.

I think the true magic is in our brain. Have we evolved with shrooms? Yes. We also evolved with cannabis and our body actually produces cannibinoids, tho I believe they are slightly different than cannabis cannibinoids. Some say its the substance but I think its our brain. Can you achieve altered states without them? If you work hard enough. Monks somewhere wrap themselves in wet sheets in a heatless shake on a mountain top and can raise their body temp. Don't underestimate your brains power.

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14119419 - 03/14/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tyler_0_durden said:
Quote:

obladi oblada said:Imagine a big space filled with physical objects scattered about. These are elements of the mind, or, as we call them, thoughts

And for my question,

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




Well...couldn't we argue that nothing actually exists, because these physical objects are just what you said, thoughts?

Kind of like the idea behind the movie, The Matrix. Nothing is actually physically real.

Entirely possible. And no one would know.

Not even me. Yet it's a theory that bothers some physicists to absolute hell.

But it's observed as such, at least at very small scales. So...do we live in a hologram?

Read Brian Greene's book The Hidden Reality. :smile:




Can you explain this.  I'm not that familiar with the Matrix.  I saw it once when it came out but I was sort of young to have a deep grasp on exactly what was up.

Are you implying that I'm just creating this reality in my mind?  Like a waking dream of some kind..?  Because if not then I can assume that the things around me are real because other people are seeing the same things as me.

I'm not saying that I think sober reality is REAL reality, in the sense that it is the complete reality...I'm thoroughly convinced that there is much more beyond what we perceive.  But still, the things I come in contact with ARE really there, etc... I don't think the idea of this Earth, Isaac Newton, mangos...are things that we dreamed up.  That's probably not what you're implying but that's basically what I'm getting from it.

Explain the argument "nothing actually exists", even briefly if you don't mind.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14119546 - 03/14/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Varanid said:
Don't underestimate your brains power.




In my understanding, which is derived largely from sober OBE's and deep meditation, the brain is only a machine - not the creater of the mind, or its counterpart, or its physical manifestation.
The mind itself is a machine, and thought is an illusory process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the brain muscle, its not helping anyone when they're corporeal body ceases to function.

As far as science has come, it deals exclusively with mundane and trivial physical observations. One is better off looking within and following the stream of light and sound towards reality, than observing and making a study of the manifestations of their delusions - the physical world.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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