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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: dshow]
    #14101719 - 03/10/11 11:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

no prisoner SSI probibly isn't on any of those figures. Isn't SSI a separate payroll deduction like it is in Canada?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Offlined33p
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14103516 - 03/11/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Also, the wild west was not nearly as violent in comparison to today as portrayed by the media. The "wild west" and "effective modern police with amazing CSI" are the myths.


Do you even know who Wyatt Earp was? Or anything else about the Wild West for that matter?

The CSI-type police oiffcers are real, they're just not the kind that you see in those black-&-white cop cars with the red/blue sirens; they're detectives, their job isn't to patrol the city and fight petty street crime, so there's no need for them drive high-profile vehicles like cop cars.




You really think that simply insinuating that I don't know anything about Wyatt Earp, the wild west, or detectives is a good argument? Also, why would you think that my belief that CSI as portrayed by popular media is a myth has anything to do with the cars they drive? It leads me to believe that you're projecting your ignorance on me.

some reading you may find interesting
http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=803
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0717hill0717.html
http://www.guncite.com/wild_west_myth.html
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/01/133301436/the-real-csi-death-detective-dysfunction
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/4325774


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: d33p]
    #14103570 - 03/11/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Pretty enlightening articles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenatural medicine
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Atomsk]
    #14103594 - 03/11/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No matter your political leaning, common defense is generally considered to be the most fundamental purpose of government.  The most polarized libertarians believe in a government that does just that, and not a whole lot more. 

The more you support a larger government, the more "common _____" type policies you would believe in, but almost anyone except a true anarchist believes common defense is the most fundamental role of government. 

On the other end, the most hardcore supporters of big government would support things like "common food and housing distribution".  Things like this can be a role of government, but its not the most basic part of what they do. 

Anotherwords, 99.9% of people all agree that common defense is important for government to provide.  Its just really bipartisan. 

Sidenote:  If someone attacks you with a gun common defense probably won't do much for you, unless a cop is standing right next to you.  Defense kinda gets left to the individual in times like that.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: d33p]
    #14104213 - 03/11/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Also, the wild west was not nearly as violent in comparison to today as portrayed by the media. The "wild west" and "effective modern police with amazing CSI" are the myths.


Do you even know who Wyatt Earp was? Or anything else about the Wild West for that matter?

The CSI-type police oiffcers are real, they're just not the kind that you see in those black-&-white cop cars with the red/blue sirens; they're detectives, their job isn't to patrol the city and fight petty street crime, so there's no need for them drive high-profile vehicles like cop cars.




You really think that simply insinuating that I don't know anything about Wyatt Earp, the wild west, or detectives is a good argument?


Based on what you said, it seems to me that you don't know much about those things; I'm not making an argument, I'm asking you if you know about Wyatt Earp or the Wild West, because you are saying that the Wild West was not nearly as violent as it is portrayed in the media. Obviously, the media exaggerates things a bit, but the Wild West was actually pretty similar at times to how it is portrayed these days, and CSI-esque detectives do exist.


Quote:

d33p said:
Also, why would you think that my belief that CSI as portrayed by popular media is a myth has anything to do with the cars they drive? It leads me to believe that you're projecting your ignorance on me.


I am, because you are making ignorant statements.


Quote:

d33p said:
some reading you may find interesting
http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=803


This article is exaggerating the violence depicted in the media of the Wild West. :lol:

Dozens of movies have portrayed the nineteenth-century mining camps in the West as hot beds of anarchy and violence, but John Umbeck discovered that, beginning in 1848, the miners began forming contracts with one another to restrain their own behavior (1981, 51).

Some mining camps grew into small towns, like Tombstone, AZ for example, and more than just miners lived there; I'm not sure if you've seen the film that takes place in this town, but some members of an outlaw group known as the Cowboys are shown in it. The Cowboys were real, and they weren't they only outlaws in the Wild West.

Tombstone History - The Cowboys
Quote:

The COWBOYS were a loosely organized gang of outlaws who operated along the Mexican border and frequented towns like Tombstone. They stole cattle from Americans and sold them in Mexico, and vice versa. Stage coach robbery, ambushing teamsters, and all other sorts of mischievous activities were partaken by the Cowboys.


In that particular film, there is violence, but it's not overwhelming; there's actually an interesting plot to it.


Quote:

d33p said:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0717hill0717.html


Yes, there were isolated examples of violence, but the true story of the American West is one of cooperation, not conflict.

Did Wild West filmmakers ever claim that what their films portray are anything other the isolated examples of violence? Do they ever say that their films capture the entire story?


Quote:

d33p said:
http://www.guncite.com/wild_west_myth.html


Burglary, like robbery, was an infrequent event in Bodie.[15] Between 1877 and 1883 there were only 32 burglaries 17 of homes and 15 of businesses. Aurora seems to have had fewer still. Bodie's boom years total of 32 burglaries gives the town an average of 6.4 burglaries a year and a burglary rate of 128.

It must be considered that law wasn't nearly as effective at preventing/punishing crime than it is today; many, perhaps even most crimes went unnoticed, and/or were never solved by the law.


Quote:

d33p said:.
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/01/133301436/the-real-csi-death-detective-dysfunction


You're accusing CSI of painting a one-sided picture, and you don't think this article is doing the same? :lol:

Of course some coroner's offices suck ass, but this doesn't mean that all of them do; do you think that CSI is a show about how detectives and coroners generally operate across the country, or do you think each series mainly concentrates on one particular city? Do you think that not one city in the US has departments that utilize the technologies and procedures that are employed by detectives/coroners in CSI?


Quote:

d33p said:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/4325774


This article just explains how ineffective the current technologies/procedures employed by detectives are, it says not shit about whether detectives IRL are anything like they are in CSI; if anything, it explains many of the striking similarities. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/11/11 03:08 PM)

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14104332 - 03/11/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think that the reason there is such a debate is that i believer farmstock owners were vulnerable to attacks from cowboy around that time and it was a real major type of theft unlike nowdays, i also think that people were vulnerable to those motherfucking railroad owners and could get your house burned down if you didn't sign the contract.

i don't think it was as bad as portrayed, it was another time, different types of crime paid differently, and people were not the soft-spoken folk of nowdays.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14104655 - 03/11/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're arguing with strawmen. Since you can't seem to grasp the original argument, here is a hypothetical example to illustrate the point:

The media only reports crimes committed by blacks. The perception that this creates is that only blacks commit crime. The perception being wrong does not mean that there were no blacks committing crime.

There is a selection bias in portraying the wild west and CSI due to the need to entertain one's audience. People like conflict and seeing the good guys prevail though adversity so that is generally all that is shown. This creates a false perception of history/reality. However, what happens on CSI and shows like it is just flat out fiction. Shit doesn't work like that at all except in the basic sense that forensic pathology and analytical chemistry can help solve crimes.

That you thought my original assertion implied that outlaws and detectives did/do not exist is absurd.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: d33p]
    #14104694 - 03/11/11 04:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
You're arguing with strawmen. Since you can't seem to grasp the original argument, here is a hypothetical example to illustrate the point:


I'm not even talking about the original argument, I'm only addressing the posts of yours that I'm addressing; thought you would've figured that out after my first reply to you, but alas, we don't all retain information at the same rates, do we? :shrug2:


Can you please explain why you believe I'm making a strawman? :confused:


Quote:

d33p said:
The media only reports crimes committed by blacks.


No it doesn't.


Quote:

d33p said:
The perception that this creates is that only blacks commit crime.


Sure, if you're a retard, and think that the news portrays absolutely every single thing that happens on this planet. :shrug:


Quote:

d33p said:
The perception being wrong does not mean that there were no blacks committing crime.


Sure, what's your point? :smile:


Quote:

d33p said:
There is a selection bias in portraying the wild west and CSI due to the need to entertain one's audience.


I already mentioned this point.


Quote:

d33p said:
People like conflict and seeing the good guys prevail though adversity so that is generally all that is shown. This creates a false perception of history/reality.


Not necessarily, it could be that it just creates an incomplete and/or exaggerated perception.

If you think that I claimed that the media doesn't exaggerate these things, then perhaps a course on elementary reading comprehension may be just what the doctor ordered for you? :justdontknow:


Quote:

d33p said:
However, what happens on CSI and shows like it is just flat out fiction. Shit doesn't work like that at all except in the basic sense that forensic pathology and analytical chemistry can help solve crimes.


In the last article that you posted, they mention many of the procedures/technologies utilized by the detectives in CSI, and they go on to talk about how those procedures/technologies are not too reliable at solving crime.


Quote:

d33p said:
That you thought my original assertion implied that outlaws and detectives did/do not exist is absurd.


You said:

Also, the wild west was not nearly as violent in comparison to today as portrayed by the media.

This implies that the violence which occurred in the Wild West was not nearly as brutal as what is portrayed, which further implies that those portrayals are false; people really did steal and kill in the streets, so what is it about what is portrayed in the media that you find to be false? :confused:


The..."effective modern police with amazing CSI" are the myths.

This implies that effective modern CSI-esque police don't exist, similarly to how mythical creatures such as unicorns don't exist.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/11/11 04:16 PM)

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Offlined33p
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14104713 - 03/11/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

holy fuck, you're either retarded or trolling

either way i'm done


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: d33p]
    #14104738 - 03/11/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Holy fuck, you don't understand the meaning of the term 'myth'.

Your original assertion:
The "wild west" and "effective modern police with amazing CSI" are the myths.

Your retarded, contradictory statement:
That you thought my original assertion implied that outlaws and detectives did/do not exist is absurd.


:tard:




EDIT: I never thought that you implied in your original assertion that outlaws and detectives did not exist, in fact, I didn't think you implied anything, I just read exactly what you wrote, which was that the "wild west" and "effective modern police with amazing CSI" (a very idiotically worded term, BTW) are myths (i.e. they did/do not exist).


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/11/11 04:29 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14104855 - 03/11/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Wild west shows were only brought up because Screaming Eagle had a clearly TV influenced view of how effective autonomous policing was in the wild west.

I am skeptical that anyone in this debate now holds the viewpoint that CSI or wild west movies are accurate depictions of real life.

I've never understood why CSI isn't classified as a Sci-Fi TV show, most of the technology used by the people on the show is decades in the future, the only thing it is missing is a star trek-esque scene where one of the characters asks the computer questions (even though that's technically more feasible than some of the shit you actually see on there). That's before nit-picking about procedural shit. IMO most wild west films (though with wild inaccuracy and obvious narrative biases) are probibly closer to reality than that show.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14104899 - 03/11/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Wild west shows were only brought up because Screaming Eagle had a clearly TV influenced view of how effective autonomous policing was in the wild west.


Proof?


Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I am skeptical that anyone in this debate now holds the viewpoint that CSI or wild west movies are accurate depictions of real life.


I don't know about anybody else, but I never claimed this; all I did was rebut the claim that those things, as they are depicted in the media, are mythical (i.e.- false) depictions. Of course there is some exaggeration, that is to be expected, but the fact of the matter is that what's being exaggerated are real life phenomenon; the phenomenon that those exaggerations are based on are not mythical.


Quote:

ScavengerType said:
I've never understood why CSI isn't classified as a Sci-Fi TV show, most of the technology used by the people on the show is decades in the future...


Example, please? One article that was posted earlier described many of the technological gadgets and procedures employed by people in CSI, and how they are ineffective IRL at solving crime.


Quote:

ScavengerType said:
...the only thing it is missing is a star trek-esque scene where one of the characters asks the computer questions (even though that's technically more feasible than some of the shit you actually see on there). That's before nit-picking about procedural shit.


:lol:, while your description was entertaining, it was a slight exaggeration. :wink:


Quote:

ScavengerType said:
IMO most wild west films (though with wild inaccuracy and obvious narrative biases)


What wild inaccuracies? Do they ride on pet dinosaurs or some shit? :paradis:

The narrative biases aren't what's under discussion.


Quote:

ScavengerType said:
...are probibly closer to reality than that show.


Probibly (:tongue:), but the fact remains that many of the technological gadgets/procedures they use/follow therein are actually used IRL.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14105158 - 03/11/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How TV ruined your life on Sci-Fi CSI

Look at all that stock footage of completely absurd technology. What year is that supposed to be in?

Just look at it, come off it man it's obviously sci-fi. Trust me I know my GF watches that garbage all the time and half the time I catch a glance at it I just hope Morphious deploys the emp device so that the cameras shut off and the scene ends.

Deep is clearly talking about biased narratives in both mediums. This is what accounts for the inflated perception of just conflict resolution under both situations.

Edited by ScavengerType (03/11/11 08:21 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14106988 - 03/12/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Deep is clearly talking about biased narratives in both mediums. This is what accounts for the inflated perception of just conflict resolution under both situations.


Well he said that shit's a myth, and it clearly isn't; a myth is something like Homer's Odyssey, which is a complete fantasy. CSI is not a complete fantasy; for the last time, many of the gadgets/procedures they use/follow are used by real detectives IRL, and one of the links that was provided earlier in this thread demonstrates this.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Socialist Policemen [Re: Poid]
    #14108288 - 03/12/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No matter your political leaning, common defense is generally considered to be the most fundamental purpose of government.  The most polarized libertarians believe in a government that does just that, and not a whole lot more.

The more you support a larger government, the more "common _____" type policies you would believe in, but almost anyone except a true anarchist believes common defense is the most fundamental role of government.

On the other end, the most hardcore supporters of big government would support things like "common food and housing distribution".  Things like this can be a role of government, but its not the most basic part of what they do.

Anotherwords, 99.9% of people all agree that common defense is important for government to provide.  Its just really bipartisan.

Sidenote:  If someone attacks you with a gun common defense probably won't do much for you, unless a cop is standing right next to you.  Defense kinda gets left to the individual in times like that.






Iz agree, but the problem is that the capitalist system never does any great things or build any wonder of the world . by that i mean statistically speaking, people of the right should be kicked out of our society because they are not in the society, they talk about ayn rand all the fucking time  if it sometime do it is only because americans have a culture where individual strong capitalist build large wonder or bill gate ( whether true or not) says he will give his money to charity in his will. Capitalist do build large wonders , but only a religion creates this special factor which is very important to keep culture alive,it is that worker are willing to give themselves, architects fight each other to be write the plan for the city's church. it makes a culture happy,wonderful,vibrant without all the mental mindfuck of materialistic bullshit, of priest scaring the shit out of us for money whether it was george bush or someone else.

it was the leader who just sent us there and not the bourgeois. you were constantly telling us all how life was injustice but i suppose i accept different kinds of injustice.

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