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Offlinebbl337
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: P-O]
    #14118264 - 03/14/11 06:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PostiveOutlook said:
[url=





wtf were they thinking talking to that guy?  He's a solar buff who isnt an expert on nuclear


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Offlinemm.
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: fantasticfungus]
    #14118266 - 03/14/11 06:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's #3 that has MOX fuel btw


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Paw_Paw]
    #14118270 - 03/14/11 07:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paw_Paw said:
I think we have a modern day meltdown and maybe more than one
Is most off the fallout headed for China?



The amount of fallout and the location where it'll affect depend on specifics we don't yet know. The first big question is how much radioactive material will be vented into the atmosphere. This depends on the extent and nature of the meltdown(s) we are seeing now, but for reactor #2, a potentially very bad scenario could unfold. We're not talking about anything near Chernobyl-proportions, but this accidents is certainly having a hugely more profound impact on the environment than the Three Mile Island accident. So this can safely be labeled the second-most severe nuclear accident involving a civil nuclear power plant.

Currently, the wind blows from the east over Japan, so the areas most likely to be affected by fallout are Japan itself, the Petropavlosk area of Russia, Korea, northern China and after a while Mongolia and Russia. It'll be a matter of days though before any radioactive cloud reaches Mongolia and Russia, so local weather conditions are likely to disturb the image.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: mm.]
    #14118273 - 03/14/11 07:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mm. said:
It's #3 that has MOX fuel btw



You're right, I was mistaken. The unit that now experiences a meltdown should not contain MOx.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118279 - 03/14/11 07:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
We're not talking about anything near Chernobyl-proportions, but this accidents is certainly having a hugely more profound impact on the environment than the Three Mile Island accident. So this can safely be labeled the second-most severe nuclear accident involving a civil nuclear power plant.



I have to correct this; the amount of radioactive material released at the Fukushima plant is still (probably) nowhere near that of the TMI accident. Let's hope it stays that way, but I'm not overly optimistic in this regard.


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OfflinePaw_Paw
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118282 - 03/14/11 07:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think we might have Chernobyl proportions X 4 before its all over
I dont think the winds are gonna carry all the fallout into the Pacific ocean
Their prevailing winds are south by south east

Thats why im saying its gonna carry over into China


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Paw_Paw]
    #14118285 - 03/14/11 07:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paw_Paw said:
I think we might have Chernobyl proportions X 4 before its all over




No, that's really really unlikely. Chernobyl was a graphite moderated reactor, and the graphite burned for days after the disaster, which was the primary mechanism for the huge release of radioactive contamination into the environment. The Fukushima reactors do not contain graphite that can burn, and hence this mechanism is lacking. This doesn't mean that no radioactivity can escape the reactor core; high heat and the lack of containment on two of the reactors combine into a very real risk, but not to the extent of Chernobyl. The situation remains unpredictable though, but luckily not nearly as out of control as Chernobyl was at the time.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Paw_Paw]
    #14118287 - 03/14/11 07:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

so how come they haven't cased these reactors in cement yet?  im sure there's a reason just curious as to what it is.  I mean isn't that what they did at chernobyl, only they waited a while?

so whats the point of waiting, the chance that they "might" stop it, why don't they just take a bulldozer and push that fucking building into the god dam ocean???


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OfflinePaw_Paw
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118293 - 03/14/11 07:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The main explosion was because they dumped to much water to fast causing a major expansion of the water
They are scared shitless at this point

Hopefully we can get some american engineers in place before we get to a major meltdown


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #14118295 - 03/14/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
so how come they haven't cased these reactors in cement yet?  im sure there's a reason just curious as to what it is.  I mean isn't that what they did at chernobyl, only they waited a while?



Well, at present, the reactor is still accessible and much of the infrastructure for cooling it is probably in tact. It would be very unwise to give that up and encase it now, as that would mean giving up all means of controlling what goes on in there.

Quote:

so whats the point of waiting, the chance that they "might" stop it, why don't they just take a bulldozer and push that fucking building into the god dam ocean???



The heat production at this moment cannot be stopped, the only thing that can be done is take away the heat to prevent damage to the reactor, which might involve contamination of the environment. Chucking the reactor into the ocean, which is practically impossible due to the location, weight and local radiation levels, would be a huge mistake as that would contaminate the ocean. The last thing you want now is direct contact between the ocean and the nuclear fuel. So that's why, basically.

Concrete containment as in Chernobyl seems like a very reasonable and necessary measure a couple of days/weeks down the line, but not now. In the case of a huge and catastrophic meltdown, I think it's likely that huge amount of sandbags or lead pellets will be dumped onto the reactor as was done in Chernobyl, although there are considerable risks involved in such an operation as well.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Paw_Paw]
    #14118297 - 03/14/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paw_Paw said:
The main explosion was because they dumped to much water to fast causing a major expansion of the water



No, I don't agree with that analysis. They _had_ to cool down the reactor, and no matter how much or how little water they used, this would have generated steam and hydrogen in any case. So it's not a matter of using 'too much water too fast'. Definitely not.

Quote:

Hopefully we can get some american engineers in place before we get to a major meltdown



I doubt if American expertise will add anything to the disaster response, but any knowledge should be welcomed. But there's preciously little that can be done at this point. I think the main thing is getting the right people with the right knowledge to the plant to improvise/repair the reactor cooling systems. This means that especially people with extensive knowledge of this particular plant are usable. The Americans come into the story as the Fukushima plant has a sort of a twin in the US which is extremely similar in design. But as far as I know, General Electric experts have already been flown into the area to help out.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118301 - 03/14/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Check out these impressive before/after photos on the NY Times website, giving an impression of the damage the tsunami did: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html


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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118331 - 03/14/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Hopefully we can get some american engineers in place before we get to a major meltdown"

How delightfully racist you are. If I hadn't opted out, you'd be getting no shrooms from me.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Synesthetic]
    #14118345 - 03/14/11 07:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Toshihiro Bannai, Japanese nuclear & industrial safety organization: Fukushima plant status is not good, but stable. No indications exist of core damage in reactors 1 and 3, but the possibility of core damage is certainly still there.

I might add to that that damage to the #2 core is highly likely, but that's my personal view.


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Offlinex Ju x
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Synesthetic]
    #14118465 - 03/14/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
"Hopefully we can get some american engineers in place before we get to a major meltdown"

How delightfully racist you are.




I concur.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118466 - 03/14/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There's a pretty excellent piece written on the current state of affairs at the Fukushima plant and the general mechanisms involved in managing a BWR core that experiences a massive cooling failure: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
I'm not sure if I agree with the man's overall optimistic tone of voice, but he seems more knowledgeable than me on the subject. I do agree with the main conclusion, which is that the vast majority of the radioactive material inside the cores will remain in place and will not be injected into the environment. However, I do believe that there is a very real chance that small amounts of radioactive iodine and cesium will end up in the surroundings of the affected plant. This is not comparable to the scale of contamination caused by nuclear tests, nuclear incidents in Soviet Russia, the UK (Windscale/Sellafield) and the USA in the 1950s and 1960s, and not by a long, long shot the extent of contamination witnessed in disasters such as Chernobyl and Chelyabinsk/Kyshtym.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118475 - 03/14/11 08:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Masashi Goto, an engineer who was involved in the design of the containment structures of the Fukushima reactors, has stated that these structures (especially the steel structure surrounding the reactor vessel and related equipment) are not designed to cope with earthquakes or tsunamis.

This is remarkable, as it contradicts earlier reports.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks] * 1
    #14118489 - 03/14/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

sounds like a PR statement to get people behind rebuilding these things once this mess is cleaned up


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Registered: 10/24/06
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14118496 - 03/14/11 08:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Check out these impressive before/after photos on the NY Times website, giving an impression of the damage the tsunami did: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html






WTF: OMG THE FUCK DAYM :eek:



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even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: deucedbi9]
    #14118678 - 03/14/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Fuel elements in the #2 reactor at Fukushima are now completely dry. Venting of steam is prevented due to blocking of the channels that serve this purpose. This means that the fuel elements in that reactor are now melting to some extent. At temperatures of 2200C, the zirconium cladding of the fuel rods melts, resulting in the rods bursting and their contents spilling out into the reactor. If temperatures reach 3000C, the nuclear fuel pellets itself start to melt. I'm not aware of any temperature readings being released to the public.

Japan has requested help from IAEA experts. Radiation levels in the vicinity of the plant are rising and seem now to be in the range of 2000-3000uSv. Yukiya Amano of the IAEA has declared that the steel reactor containment structure is still intact, preventing large quantities of highly radioactive matter to be released into the environment.


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