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Anonymous #1

Being with someone who's narrow minded.
    #14101188 - 03/10/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So i'm with this guy now, its not serious yet though. I like him, hes an art kid, like me, and a musician, but he thinks he's got it all figured out with his logic and reasoning.

We're both not stupid people, but i'm hesitant because we disagree on so many things. i'm fine with people having a different opinion on things, but this guys never tripped and he doesn't understand the collective consiousness vibe. In fact, he's really big on evolution and thinks souls don't exist, and neither does an afterlife. He's scientific about everything which is fine because i agree that science can be applied to a ridiculous amount of things. But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively. I'm not trying to change his opinions to mine, i just want to help him understand the beautiful simplicity of the world. I think i should just trip with him to help him see it for himself. Also, he doesn't laugh enough. I think laughings important.


Does anyone understand where i'm coming from? Does anyone out there have friends who need to stop thinking in ... tangible, material, logical terms too much? I feel like this community might understand.


How can i open his eyes? I feel like if he could some one second consider my crazy thoughts it could make him happier.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14101234 - 03/10/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You really cannot change anyone.
You could try having an MDMA session with him to try to open up his eyes a little.

But in the end it will probably come down with you having to make a choice. And if the differences mean alot to you and he is not going to change, it might be better to look for someone else before it gets to serious.


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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Anonymous #1

Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14101294 - 03/10/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i know i can't change people, i've learned that lesson before.

But do you think there's a way i can help him?


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14101301 - 03/10/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Would he be willing to try real MDMA with you?
That can be a real eye opener for people..


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14101311 - 03/10/11 10:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I bet he feels like you need to open YOUR eyes.  I know you said you don't want to change his opinion to yours, but it seems to me like you do.

Quote:

But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively




He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14101322 - 03/10/11 10:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Shroomerette] * 1
    #14101325 - 03/10/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I bet he feels like you need to open YOUR eyes.  I know you said you don't want to change his opinion to yours, but it seems to me like you do.

Quote:

But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively




He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.




I remember the very first amazing trip I had, my first ego death, I wanted to tell all my friends, my family, get them to experience what I had because it was so breathtaking.
However I realized that it was something personal that I couldn't make other people experience - they had to do it on their own. I could act as a guide if they wanted it, but forcing or persuading them to do it would not work.

Its the same for you here.
You can act as a guide, suggest it, but not really anything more. If its meant to be it will.


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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Anonymous #1

Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14101388 - 03/10/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tymoteusz3 said:
Would he be willing to try real MDMA with you?
That can be a real eye opener for people..



Personally i've never tried it but my friend just offered me some today and she'll probably have it tomorrow, so i might get some. I don't know if he would but would it be more effective than shrooms as an eye opener?

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I bet he feels like you need to open YOUR eyes.  I know you said you don't want to change his opinion to yours, but it seems to me like you do.

Quote:

But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively




He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.


\

call it a hippy theory if you want, but knowing this and experiencing oneness is one of the most amazing feelings in the world. I just want him to see how ridiculous the system is and see him laugh at the social standards and systems that shouldn't be taken seriously.

Maybe i'm just to much of a mystical and spiritual person with paranoia on the side, and we're just not a good match. How can i explain it though... I guess he does just need to see for himself.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14101401 - 03/10/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tymoteusz3 said:
Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I bet he feels like you need to open YOUR eyes.  I know you said you don't want to change his opinion to yours, but it seems to me like you do.

Quote:

But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively




He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.




I remember the very first amazing trip I had, my first ego death, I wanted to tell all my friends, my family, get them to experience what I had because it was so breathtaking.
However I realized that it was something personal that I couldn't make other people experience - they had to do it on their own. I could act as a guide if they wanted it, but forcing or persuading them to do it would not work.

Its the same for you here.
You can act as a guide, suggest it, but not really anything more. If its meant to be it will.





Thank you, i'll take your advice since you know what i'm trying to get across.


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14101447 - 03/10/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just curious OP, when you talk about these things is it more of an argument or a discussion?  Does he try to convince you that the way that you see the world is wrong, or vice versa?


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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Anonymous #1

Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14101490 - 03/10/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.




fractals = everything = infinity, but don't take my word for it.

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I'm just curious OP, when you talk about these things is it more of an argument or a discussion?  Does he try to convince you that the way that you see the world is wrong, or vice versa?




We don't argue, its just discussion. But it ends up leading nowhere sometimes. Today he said that death is funny, i agreed, but i said its not funny when the person didn't have time to say goodbye or when they had unfinished business or left on bad terms with someone. He said that those deceased probably don't give a shit anyway and i was going to explain my reasoning for why some would but i stopped because i knew he wouldn't believe it. :ohwell:


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14102955 - 03/11/11 09:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.




fractals = everything = infinity, but don't take my word for it.





Everything's a fractal? Where's your proof of this? Where's your evidence?

Oh wait, there's none.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14103008 - 03/11/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.




fractals = everything = infinity, but don't take my word for it.





Everything's a fractal? Where's your proof of this? Where's your evidence?

Oh wait, there's none.




Wheres your proof that there isn't?
There is so much we do not know about ourselves and the universe it is entirely possible.

I don't see how someones beliefs should make you get all defensive.
This thread if I read correctly was asking for advice about a relationship.
It seems you are trolling?


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14103029 - 03/11/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
We're both not stupid people, but i'm hesitant because we disagree on so many things. i'm fine with people having a different opinion on things, but this guys never tripped and he doesn't understand the collective consiousness vibe. In fact, he's really big on evolution and thinks souls don't exist, and neither does an afterlife.[...] But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively.



So both of you have equally strong convictions. There are three ways to deal with this:
1. Either of you changes his/her opinion to match that of the other.
2. Either or both of you accept the other's convictions and puts the issue at rest.
3. Break up.
Simple, no?

When choosing between the options above, keep in mind that it's usually easier to change yourself than to change another person.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14103035 - 03/11/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.




fractals = everything = infinity, but don't take my word for it.

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I'm just curious OP, when you talk about these things is it more of an argument or a discussion?  Does he try to convince you that the way that you see the world is wrong, or vice versa?




We don't argue, its just discussion. But it ends up leading nowhere sometimes. Today he said that death is funny, i agreed, but i said its not funny when the person didn't have time to say goodbye or when they had unfinished business or left on bad terms with someone. He said that those deceased probably don't give a shit anyway and i was going to explain my reasoning for why some would but i stopped because i knew he wouldn't believe it. :ohwell:




Honestly I don't think the relationship has much success.
You have two TOTALLY different viewpoints, and while it can be made to work, you guys are not serious yet so get out before it gets serious and it makes leaving so much worse when you find out you really cannot deal with the incompatibilities.

Find someone with the same view as you. There are many out there. I think in the long run you will be happier.

:mushroom2:


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14103153 - 03/11/11 09:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tymoteusz3 said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Quote:

Anonymous said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.




fractals = everything = infinity, but don't take my word for it.





Everything's a fractal? Where's your proof of this? Where's your evidence?

Oh wait, there's none.




Wheres your proof that there isn't?
There is so much we do not know about ourselves and the universe it is entirely possible.

I don't see how someones beliefs should make you get all defensive.
This thread if I read correctly was asking for advice about a relationship.
It seems you are trolling?




I don't need any proof or evidence that there isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. She made the claim that "fractals = everything = infinity." Just like how if someone made the claim that the universe was made by a giant turtle, they would have to present evidence to support the claim.

I'm not trolling, what I'm trying to show is that her opinion is baseless, and that it's ridiculous that she's saying her boyfriend is narrow minded by not blindly believing this garbage that she came up with while on drugs.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14103177 - 03/11/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:

I don't need any proof or evidence that there isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. She made the claim that "fractals = everything = infinity." Just like how if someone made the claim that the universe was made by a giant turtle, they would have to present evidence to support the claim.

I'm not trolling, what I'm trying to show is that her opinion is baseless, and that it's ridiculous that she's saying her boyfriend is narrow minded by not blindly believing this garbage that she came up with while on drugs.




I think the real issue is not whether its garbage or not (your opinion) but whether two people with strongly opposing views can be in a successful relationship.

While it does sometimes work for people who have two totally different religions for example, its quite hard and usually does not work if both are very strong in their convictions.

Also HeavyToilet, you don't have to believe or agree with anyone, but you should at least have an open mind and not shoot down everything that doesn't match your own beliefs. That is quite narrow minded.


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14103201 - 03/11/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm perfectly open minded to hearing a claim if there is evidence to support it.

Why would you bother having an open mind on something that is baseless?

Look at my example of a giant turtle making the universe. Would you really consider people close minded if they considered that garbage?


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14105709 - 03/11/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why don't you introduce him to the psychedelic experience. Sounds like a heavy trip would convince him of "ultimate reality" or whatever you want to call it..


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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Offlinedshow
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: PDU]
    #14106049 - 03/11/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Be the shroomery to mention MDMA to possible help.

Meaning thats actually a great idea. That stuff does wonders, its sad they took it out of therapy sessions in the 70s. (drug act)


Hes being a guy. Guys are like that. Do you want a little lost puppy who is dumb? or follows the leader?

Like other people said its opposing.. possibly wont work, but your here to seek answers and see if you can make it work, cuz you like him. Keep trying it could be the best thing that ever happened to you, or just find another fish.


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Offlinedageo18
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14115590 - 03/13/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
So i'm with this guy now, its not serious yet though. I like him, hes an art kid, like me, and a musician, but he thinks he's got it all figured out with his logic and reasoning.

We're both not stupid people, but i'm hesitant because we disagree on so many things. i'm fine with people having a different opinion on things, but this guys never tripped and he doesn't understand the collective consiousness vibe. In fact, he's really big on evolution and thinks souls don't exist, and neither does an afterlife. He's scientific about everything which is fine because i agree that science can be applied to a ridiculous amount of things. But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively. I'm not trying to change his opinions to mine, i just want to help him understand the beautiful simplicity of the world. I think i should just trip with him to help him see it for himself. Also, he doesn't laugh enough. I think laughings important.


Does anyone understand where i'm coming from? Does anyone out there have friends who need to stop thinking in ... tangible, material, logical terms too much? I feel like this community might understand.


How can i open his eyes? I feel like if he could some one second consider my crazy thoughts it could make him happier.




I feel like myself pre- drug use was very similar to this guy.  After smoking non stop for a long time and doing some psychedelics my scientific thinking was still there, with the same basic principals but I did have more of a "figurative understand?" of stuff.  I am pretty open minded to most things, cuz who am I to say whats out there. But I still believe in what you could call tangible terms, and I doubt doing psychedelics would bring him to your point of view.  He is how he is, its the way he works, its not up to you or drugs to decide.

It could help open his mind to your ideas a little, but really I wouldn't call him narrow minded because he isn't. He could be thinking your narrow minded for not understanding his science, for him the logic is all there and it could even frustrate him that u cant use the reason to see it.  I say communicate your views, learn from each other, no need to agree, and just respect each others opinions.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: dageo18]
    #14116330 - 03/13/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it. I'm gonna try to make it work but if we're not good together then oh well, i know there's more people out there with similar views i just need to look around.

And heavy toilet, this is kind irrelevant in this forum, but fractals are visible everywhere. I just realized it one day when when looking at a tree, its all systems within systems. These videos might help illustrate the point better than i can explain it, if you wanna take the time to watch them.





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OfflineAge_of_Reflection
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14117007 - 03/13/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.




--------------------
One day we all will die.

If were lucky, warm in our beds,

But in truth, we lived two lives.

One external, and one in our heads.

--- A.O.R.


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OfflineSterile
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14119563 - 03/14/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Respecting the raw human psychedelic experience is very rare.

Most ask for evidence in order to be convinced of other points of view and realities derived from other states of consciousness.

Evidence is just a system of believes tho. Just a few compromises in our narrow slice of reality we comprehend.

We need to show more respect on the human experience and understand its subjective nature for the person who tells the story.

But since thats not the case with your friend, only what Terrence McKenna said pops in mind:

"If the truth can be told, so as to be understood, it will be believed"


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek




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Offlinemikeisapro
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14124323 - 03/15/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Have him read Doors of Perception and Heaven and Hell by Aldous Huxley (brilliant mind). You can find them both online, they aren't very long. Heaven and Hell is about mescaline and acid, and he writes about art a lot too. Doors of perception is about mescaline. If he's a smart guy, and he reads both of those essays 2-3 times, and he still is closed-minded about psychedelics, dump him.


--------------------
Life without drugs lacks substance(s).


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Offlinemikeisapro
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14124375 - 03/15/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Sounds like doesn't buy into your baseless beliefs that "we're all infinite" (whatever the fuck that means) and who knows what else. Just because you took a bunch of drugs and had some conclusion about the universe or whatever does not make it true.

You should listen to your boyfriend, sounds like he's a lot less gullible than you are.



Here's a portion of Aldous Huxley's novel Island

Murugan calls it dope and feels about it all the disapproval that, by
conditioned reflex, the dirty word evokes. We, on the contrary, give the stuff
good names—the moksha-medicine, the reality revealer, the truth-andbeauty
pill. And we know, by direct experience, that the good names are
deserved. Whereas our young friend here has no firsthand knowledge of
the stuff and can't be persuaded even to give it a try. For him, it's dope and
dope is something that, by definition, no decent person ever indulges in."

"What does His Highness say to that?" Will asked.
Murugan shook his head. "All it gives you is a lot of illusions," he
muttered."All I mean is that I don't want
any of your false samadhi."
"How do you know it's false?" Dr. Robert enquired.
"Because the real thing only comes to people after years and years of
meditation and tapas and . . ."
"Murugan," Vijaya explained to Will, "is one of the Puritans. He's
outraged by the fact that, with four hundred milligrams of moksha-medicine
in their bloodstreams, even beginners can catch a glimpse of the world as it looks to
someone who has been liberated from his bondage to the ego."
"But it isn't real," Murugan insisted.
"Not real!" Dr. Robert repeated. "You might as well say that the
experience of feeling well isn't real."
"You're begging the question," Will objected. "An experience can be real in relation to something going on inside your skull but
completely irrelevant to anything outside."
"Of course," Dr. Robert agreed.
"Do you know what goes on inside your skull, when you've taken a
dose of the mushroom?"
"We know a little."
"Their response is the
full-blown mystical experience. You know—One in all and All in one. The
basic experience with its corollaries— boundless compassion, fathomless
mystery and meaning."
"Not to mention joy," said Dr. Robert, "inexpressible joy."
"And the whole caboodle is inside your skull," said Will. "Strictly
private. No reference to any external fact except a toadstool."
"Not real," Murugan chimed in. "That's exactly what I was trying to
say."
"Do you like music?" Dr. Robert asked.
"More than most things."
"And what, may I ask, does Mozart's G-Minor Quintet refer to? Does it
refer to Allah? Or Tao? Or the second person of the Trinity? Or the Atman-
Brahman?"
Will laughed. "Let's hope not."
"But that doesn't make the experience of the G-Minor Quintet any less
rewarding. Well, it's the same with the kind of experience that you get with
the moksha-medicine, or through prayer and fasting and spiritual exercises.
Even if it doesn't refer to anything outside itself, it's still the most important
thing that ever happened to you. Like music, only incomparably more so.
And if you give the experience a chance, if you're prepared to go along with
it, the results are incomparably more therapeutic and transforming. So
maybe the whole thing does happen inside one's skull. Maybe it is private
and there's no unitive knowledge of anything but one's own physiology.
Who cares? The fact remains that the experience can open one's eyes and
make one blessed and transform one's whole life
.
"


--------------------
Life without drugs lacks substance(s).


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Offlinemikeisapro
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Age_of_Reflection]
    #14124380 - 03/15/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Age_of_Reflection said:
Quote:

He will only "understand" it if it seems true to him.  Everyone who trips does not end up thinking like that, so if you want to try tripping with him to see if it works for him then go for it.  Just don't automatically assume that your view of the world is any more valid or true than his, and don't assume that his eyes are closed because he doesn't buy into the hippy theory that you like.






Here's an appropriate quote from the same novel, Island

"You're assuming," said Dr. Robert, "that the brain produces
consciousness. I'm assuming that it transmits consciousness. And my
explanation is no more farfetched than yours. How on earth can a set of
events belonging to one order be experienced as a set of events belonging
to an entirely different and incommensurable order? Nobody has the
faintest idea. All one can do is to accept the facts and concoct hypotheses.
And one hypothesis is just about as good, philosophically speaking, as
another. You say that the moksha-medicine does something to the silent
areas of the brain which causes them to produce a set of subjective events
to which people have given the name 'mystical experience.' / say that the
moksha-medicine does something to the silent areas of the brain which
opens some kind of neurological sluice and so allows a larger volume of
Mind with a large 'M' to flow into your mind with a small 'm.' You can't
demonstrate the truth of your hypothesis, and I can't demonstrate the truth
of mine. And even if you could prove that I'm wrong, would it make any
practical difference?"


--------------------
Life without drugs lacks substance(s).


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Offlinesanx
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14138361 - 03/17/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
So i'm with this guy now, its not serious yet though. I like him, hes an art kid, like me, and a musician, but he thinks he's got it all figured out with his logic and reasoning.

We're both not stupid people, but i'm hesitant because we disagree on so many things. i'm fine with people having a different opinion on things, but this guys never tripped and he doesn't understand the collective consiousness vibe. In fact, he's really big on evolution and thinks souls don't exist, and neither does an afterlife. He's scientific about everything which is fine because i agree that science can be applied to a ridiculous amount of things. But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively. I'm not trying to change his opinions to mine, i just want to help him understand the beautiful simplicity of the world. I think i should just trip with him to help him see it for himself. Also, he doesn't laugh enough. I think laughings important.


Does anyone understand where i'm coming from? Does anyone out there have friends who need to stop thinking in ... tangible, material, logical terms too much? I feel like this community might understand.


How can i open his eyes? I feel like if he could some one second consider my crazy thoughts it could make him happier.





I used to be very scientific myself, and had similar beliefs to what you are explaining here, that is until I tried Salvia (my first trip) a few years ago, and my viewpoint changed radically. Since then I've tripped a few more times and I've become way more of a spiritual person. I don't think my change in philosophy was abrupt, but gradually spiritual aspects of life and ideas started to make a lot more sense than they used to, and one day I sort of realised that my way of thinking had changed (for the better, I think). I guess you could say I used to be an atheist and now I'm a mystic agnostic, if that makes any sense. Salvia and LSD have taught me humility in accepting the limitations of human thought and the human condition, and I've definetly had experiences that can be considered to have happened on a mystical plane of existence, and though I'll never really know if they were real or not, I now understand the relativity of the concept "real" in general, and I believe the lessons to be learned are no less valuable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard in some cases to believe in certain things until you have experienced them yourself directly, but getting your boyfriend to trip doesn't necessarily mean he's going to change his way of thinking. Maybe you can think about why it is so important to you that he might share this way of thinking with you, and consider talking to him about the possibility of tripping together. It definately helped me with this aspect, but once again, it won't necessarily make him understand spirituality.


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Offlinepmb
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: sanx]
    #14141716 - 03/18/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I consider myself extremely open minded, but every time I hear the idea of we are all connected as one just sounds like hippy bullshit.


I've tripped dozens of times and I still don't get the "collective consciousness vibe".

Tripping always disassociates me from everything and shows me that were all ultimately alone and even fundamental things like speech lack complete connection to other individuals.

Meaning that when you think of a word you have a list of memories attached to that word and when you use that word to describe something to anyone they also have their own set of very different but similar memories. No matter how specific you can try to be when communicating there's always that small bit that will be lost in translation from your thoughts to theirs.


Being logical isn't fun and you would be hard pressed to change anyone that thinks logically. You don't need to take drugs to see the beauty in how simple the world really is. So many complex systems can be described by easily understood equations.


If he's ok with you using drugs and he doesn't want to, don't try and push him just so he can "see the light".


--------------------
Don't smell the flowers, They're an evil drug to make you lose your mind


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14142477 - 03/18/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Everything's a fractal? Where's your proof of this? Where's your evidence?




Disclaimer: I despise the pseudo-scientific mysticism of the original statements.

However, plenty of things are fractal in nature.

Trees, coastlines, the human circulatory system, lightning, all of these are "self-similar," one pattern at a number of scale.

In my particular line of work, crack propagation and surface roughness are two good examples. It's all about what scale you're looking to measure.

Not "everything," though. Plenty of things aren't fractal.


EDIT: Tripping showed me that my senses are unreliable and that I treasure my particular nature. It made me appreciate my mind's ability to reason, losing it and gaining it back. The period of my drug use also changed my personality in a way that in retrospect was necessary. I give much less of a shit these days. Point is, your mileage may vary.

"He doesn't see things the way I do, he's so close-minded"


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (03/18/11 10:32 AM)


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14162903 - 03/22/11 02:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There is no proof of a collective unconcious, if you believe in it you might as well call it God and say you learned it from the bible.

There is however complete 100% evidence that we are all matter and all matter is made of energy. The whole universe is divided into three things, time, space and energy.

I would under-emphasize the collective unconcious and go more for a direct, "we are all one", because that is verifiable fact.

I am a materialist atheist guy and I love evolution, so maybe I can help. I also don't believe in the "soul", as commonly talked about.

I also like the safe drugs, hallucinogens and weed, but lots of materialists are super-mainstream and "close minded" like the majority of the population. If it were easy to explain to people why drugs aren't scary then they would be legal.

Also science can be applied to everything, but only indirectly to questions of personal judgement and morality.

"Does anyone out there have friends who need to stop thinking in ... tangible, material, logical terms too much?"

This is you trying to force your opinion on someone else, you don't need to become an airy fairy "spiritual" person to enjoy drugs, or to feel connected to the universe. Maybe you do need to be "spiritual" to believe in things that have no evidence though.


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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OfflineJoolz
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14163010 - 03/22/11 03:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Evidence is all subjective and biased anyways. You can't remove the human bias from science.



--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.


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InvisibleTTT
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #14163524 - 03/22/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

He is not narrow minded, he has his opinion. Why would you try to change it?

I would take advantage of being with someone who is so rational with their beliefs and see it as a balance to my more abstract creativity. He doesn't have to see eye to eye. Why does it matter?


Also, never eveer give anyone psychedelics unless THEY want it.


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: TTT]
    #14163540 - 03/22/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TTT said:
He is not narrow minded, he has his opinion. Why would you try to change it?

I would take advantage of being with someone who is so rational with their beliefs and see it as a balance to my more abstract creativity. He doesn't have to see eye to eye. Why does it matter?


Also, never eveer give anyone psychedelics unless THEY want it.




This cannot be stressed enough. What I have found is that you cannot get someone to try psychedelics in the same way you would get them to try other drugs - they have to be drawn to it.
Otherwise it doesn't work.

Not seeing eye to eye is perfectly fine, however both sides must be open minded.


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14163634 - 03/22/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

But how can i make him understand that we're all infinite and connected as one although experiencing things subjectively. I'm not trying to change his opinions to mine, i just want to help him understand the beautiful simplicity of the world.




:smilingpuppy:


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


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OfflineHashishin13
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Joolz]
    #14163868 - 03/22/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You point to the cutting edge of unexplained science and use that to try to say that the hundreds of years of bulletproof experimentation are somehow now invalidated.

Is the Sun's existence subjective? If you think it doesn't exist does that make it exist any less for me?

The universe isn't subjective at all, its entirely objective. People get confused by that which we don't currently understand.(quantum physics, what happend before the big bang etc)

Not understanding something isn't proof that it doesn't exist objectively.


--------------------
It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it.
-George Washington


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Offlinetk3
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: Hashishin13]
    #14166069 - 03/22/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashishin13 said:
You point to the cutting edge of unexplained science and use that to try to say that the hundreds of years of bulletproof experimentation are somehow now invalidated.

Is the Sun's existence subjective? If you think it doesn't exist does that make it exist any less for me?

The universe isn't subjective at all, its entirely objective. People get confused by that which we don't currently understand.(quantum physics, what happend before the big bang etc)

Not understanding something isn't proof that it doesn't exist objectively.




This.  The idea that consciousness causes quantum wave function collapse is just people trying to find a justification for believing in magic.  Before all this quantum shit it was electro-magnetism.

As someone who does believe in both magic and science i find it ridiculous.


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OfflineMLDSMDA
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: tk3]
    #14251846 - 04/07/11 07:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I believe in both too. It's going to take a while for all of humanity to understand it, but I'm gonna quote Einstein on this- "All religions, all arts, and all sciences are branches of the same tree". I've learned you cannot convince anyone of out of the ordinary by todays standards ideas about the "spiritual" side of life unless they have a very open mind and are willing to look into it themselves. They'll have to experience it themselves, which they will in time. Maybe not in this lifetime, but another. I suggest finding someone your more compatible with. Someone who can learn from psychedelics with you.



"The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of understanding"- The Kybalion


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: pmb]
    #14258207 - 04/08/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I've tripped dozens of times and I still don't get the "collective consciousness vibe".

Tripping always disassociates me from everything and shows me that were all ultimately alone and even fundamental things like speech lack complete connection to other individuals.





Whenever tripping in public (amusement parks, bars, festivals), I feel like I can't even begin to communicate with people and I feel alienated.  Perhaps I 'understood' the collective consciousness when tripping alone or with close friends who were also tripping.  Or maybe it was just more of a good vibe feeling because we were all having fun and laughing a lot.  Mostly, I just tend to feel confused when trying to think about anything too much when on psychedelics.  But definitely with people I'm not all that familiar with, I feel alone.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Invisiblebonnahoo
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Re: Being with someone who's narrow minded. [Re: pothead_bob]
    #14259710 - 04/08/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you can't get over the fact that he has different views, and that is a deal breaker for you, then end it now... don't continue this until you are both really involved and fighting over stupid shit all the time. Everyone's right, you can't really change someone. You might be able to persuade them to do or believe something, but that's not changing who they are emotionally. Sorry this is an issue for you, but I just got out of a relationship that failed because of differences, and it hurts. I know in the beginning both parties can usually get over them and just have a fun time, but they will catch up to you. And honestly, no one should have to change who they are for someone else. There are almost 7 billion people in the world, and surely one of them shares your same thoughts/views.
Good luck though! <3


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