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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Grav]
    #14096715 - 03/10/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Johnm, I think that some of the reasons your OP is called biased are for one the topic which is rife with bias. You should never ask someone is something they have an opinion on is any of their buisness and not expect to sound antagonistic. Further, your OP as well as your following posts seem to suggest that the issue here is between the existence of the occupation vs the existence of the state of Israel.




I personally believe that on both side, there is a certain framework of ideas that leads to conclusions.

The obvious fact of the matter is that i respect terrorist more than you respect soldiers

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14096737 - 03/10/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The problem I see and the one that few address here ever is that todays terrorist/revolutionary is very often tomorrows solider.  History is rife with this.

So is the problem this little conflict or human nature?  And if it's human nature how do you address that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14096867 - 03/10/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> And if it's human nature how do you address that?

Simple.  Kill everybody that's nature is different than mine.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Seuss]
    #14096876 - 03/10/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That's the bottom line here isn't it?  I aways like to cut to the chase:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenatural medicine
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Registered: 01/03/11
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14097661 - 03/10/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Israel causes harm to Islamic civilization by disrupting their hegemony in the region.  Multiculturalism and democracy are enemies of modern Islamic civilization.  So dangerous is Israel to this hegemony, that Muslims and Arabs use and abuse Palestinians by promoting them to be violent and hate filled - lest they see the virtues of multiculturalism and democracy.




YES.  The Islamic world at large hates Israel because of their Western ideals.  They also hate that Israel has owned them in every war that was started by the Islamic countries!  The only reason the Israeli military has to be so controlling sometimes is because they have any terrorists running around all over the place.  Reality check: the palestinians won't stop complaining if they got a 2 state solution or a magority of power in Israel.  They won't stop until the people they despise are gone.  Yea, it's easy to be painted as the bad guy when you have to fight these kind of people.  They twist everything to make themselves look like victims. 

Something does need to be done to give the palestinians a safe home of their own.  Why are the Arab countries so pissed, but not letting the Palestinians move to their countrys?

It just sucks, every reasonable solution has a catch 22. 

*edit*  I want to make it clear that I realize most Palestinian people are very good people.  But the ones who have power and are making demands are by and large not. 

Also, the Palestinians were the ones who tried to wipe out the Israelis in the beginning; they lost their home because they tried to murder all the Jews like someone else in history did the decade before them.  Israel captured their land in a defensive war.  If you murder someone here the gov't puts you in jail and takes your property since you're going to be there for (most of your) life.  Same idea, except exile instead of jail. 


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Edited by natural medicine (03/10/11 12:51 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: natural medicine]
    #14097724 - 03/10/11 12:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wouldn't be so quick to declare that most of the Palestinians are good people.  A majority in the Gaza Strip elected a terrorist organization to lead them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14097740 - 03/10/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Same with America, look at the kind of leaders we elect.  That's not a indication of a lot of "good" people imo. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14097819 - 03/10/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Same with America, look at the kind of leaders we elect.  That's not a indication of a lot of "good" people imo. :lol:



Fucking spare me that idiotic equivalence.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14097904 - 03/10/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

no


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14097914 - 03/10/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I wouldn't be so quick to declare that most of the Palestinians are good people.  A majority in the Gaza Strip elected a terrorist organization to lead them.




Hamas is a terrorist organization right.  Who told you that, Israel?

For those who want to hear want the Israeli government thinks of the Palestinians, here you go:



Since most wont watch this because it blows holes in their logic that Israel is just and does nothing wrong to the Palestinians, keep eating that zionist bullshit with a smile.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: amilibertine]
    #14097945 - 03/10/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not just Israel.  Not by a long shot.

I'm not going to watch a 15 minute video.  Ever.  Cut to the fucking chase.  Find a quote in print.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14098134 - 03/10/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Where did I suppose this dichotomy?  The entirety of your posts here have seemed to imagine, without so much as even a rudimentary explanation, some presuppositions on my part that you've been gradually revealing in serial.  While suspensful to be sure, none of these revelations have been shown to have anything to do with my post- you've simply declared them and proceeded on.




In your OP to start and elswhere as well:
Quote:


a)  What harm is the existence of Israel causing anyone?  Are their any legitimate rights being infringed upon by its existence?

Often I hear folks expressing their displeasure with the Israeli state, but other than vague claims of "stolen" land and crap like that (with no explanation), I'm not aware of any prominent arguments against the state, or showing how its harming anyone by existing.



Nobody is saying the existence of Israel's existence is the problem, but this statement suggests that the only alternative to the violence is that.
Quote:

I've not really heard any criticism of this view, despite it seeming to be integral to the notion of the state's existance being a wrong by itself...
This would seem helpful as the issue is commonly raised in this forum as side issues.  Lets have it out and hear why Israel is wrong or why Zionism is wrong.




You have repeatedly asked the question as if a bulk of commentators on the mater advocate for the elimination of Israel. In fact this is not the case and I am not blaming you for asking it in this manner if this is borne of ignorance of the issue. However it does suggest that you've never listened to a western critic of Israel ever, this is why people accuse you of being informed by the american MSM.



Quote:

You claim to explain perceptions of bias yet midstream conclude I should not expect to sound non-antagonistic- apparently discarding the question of bias.  I never claimed any particular concern with perceptions of antagonism, for or against, and once more I'm left wondering what the point of that deduction was.




I simply meant that the way you asked your question sounded biased and (without knowing) antagonized people who advocate a peaceful solution.

Quote:

I quite mean it when I ask what business is it of folks that zionism and Israel exist: there may well be better ways to run the state or to have set it up, and zionism may be inferior to any number of philosophies, but if it doesn't affect anyone's rights then it is not their business to intervene or claim harm.




I've already made statements about this, particularly the nuclear issue and human rights issues make it the world's buisness. Americans are particularly of concern since they support the military aspects of Zionism financially. There are a large number of reasons why nearly everyone has "buisness" in this conflict. Would you be so presumptuous as to tell me that I should have no buisness to protest the Iraq war (as a Canadian) at it's launch? Please buddy.
 
Quote:

Its worth noting that despite the very clear questions, those who purport to find fault with Israel have universally criticized unstated presumptions that they claim, but do not show, to underlie my questions, and have continued to make other unsupported accusations as to my education, bias and other factors rather than address the issue.




Here's a citation for the Israelis running over american citizen with a CAT bulldozer (bought from the US with aid). Here is her family preparing to have their case heard in Israel where they did not receive justice.
7 Years After Killing, Family of Slain US Peace Activist Rachel Corrie Heads to Israel for Wrongful Death Suit Against Israeli Gov’t
Quote:

Rachel Corrie, a twenty-three-year-old student from Evergreen College in Olympia, Washington, was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer in Gaza seven years ago as she stood before a Palestinian home facing demolition. Today, a trial opens in Israel in a lawsuit brought by Corrie’s family against the Israeli government. The eyewitness testimony is expected to challenge Israel’s version of events with evidence that she was clearly visible to the soldiers, standing before the bulldozer in her florescent orange jacket.




If you want a citation for all the claims against Israel you will have to be more specific. I showed you video already of the extremist Zionists settling land that even the Israeli state hasn't sanctioned settlers to occupy. Do you want a citation to prove that the Israeli state is illegally settling on Palestinian land? You are asking questions that confuse the issues and demanding citations and proof. Your going to need to be a little more clear in what you are asking if you would like an answer.


______
Quote:

natural medicine said:
Also, the Palestinians were the ones who tried to wipe out the Israelis in the beginning; they lost their home because they tried to murder all the Jews like someone else in history did the decade before them. Israel captured their land in a defensive war. If you murder someone here the gov't puts you in jail and takes your property since you're going to be there for (most of your) life.  Same idea, except exile instead of jail.




Wrong the state of Israel was formed after the British established a policy if Israeli colonialism and throughout the process the terrorism of the Israelis was quite well noted. The Israeli aggression started in initial colonization. You are taking some conflicts that were started by Arab parties and claiming them as the initial conflict or as all conflicts.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14098190 - 03/10/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Nobody is saying the existence of Israel's existence is the problem.




Ummm false.  Several hundred million, if not billions are.
Quote:



Here's a citation for the Israelis running over american citizen with a CAT bulldozer (bought from the US with aid). Here is her family preparing to have their case heard in Israel where they did not receive justice.




Rachel Corrie, aka St. Pancake, was an idiot who stood in front of a bulldozer where the driver couldn't see her.  There was nothing innocent about her presence there, either.  She was the typically retarded American brat who got served a bunch of anti-Israeli crap by the Kommentariat at university and who felt a need to help the murdering fucks.  Like they can't throw enough rocks themselves.  It's a shame she got killed but that was pure Darwin in action.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: amilibertine]
    #14098226 - 03/10/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

amilibertine said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I wouldn't be so quick to declare that most of the Palestinians are good people.  A majority in the Gaza Strip elected a terrorist organization to lead them.




Hamas is a terrorist organization right.  Who told you that, Israel?

For those who want to hear want the Israeli government thinks of the Palestinians, here you go:



Since most wont watch this because it blows holes in their logic that Israel is just and does nothing wrong to the Palestinians, keep eating that zionist bullshit with a smile.





All I can say is Wow.  Pretty fucking incriminating imo.  I agree no one who is biased in favor of Jews is going to like that one bit. But it seems to be all documented  and spoken by Israeli  leaders.  Anyone who is willing to watch this want to respond?  I'd like to hear.  Especially the one where they say don't worry about the Americans  we Jews control the Americans and they know it. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14098293 - 03/10/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well then I eagerly await a transcript.  You wanna quote some of it?  I'm gonna guess they said pretty much what I believe about the Pallies already.

By the way, do you believe that the statement you quoted is anything other than braggadoccio?  President Barack Hussein Obama?  They never did control America, in spite of the fever dreams of the conspiracy nutcases.  And if they did, well, wouldn't it be time for your to surrender to a clearly superior group?  There's only about 50 of them in the whole world.


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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14098366 - 03/10/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not just Israel.  Not by a long shot.

I'm not going to watch a 15 minute video.  Ever.  Cut to the fucking chase.  Find a quote in print.





That video is 15 minutes worth of quotes from Israeli officials with the sources named.  No doubt you wont watch it. I'm not gonna copy and paste dozens of quotes when this video can do it for me. The fact that you wont watch it just shows you don't care what evidence anyone brings, it's not gonna change you views anyways.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14098407 - 03/10/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I have no real idea why he said what he said.  I'd love to know for sure.

I'd never go for the extermination of a whole group of people unless I knew they were all believing the same things. But that's just me. You may feel differently.

Many basically said that all the Palestinians should be slaughtered and in some pretty nasty ways too.  I only watched part of it. I got the picture but there was nothing shocking to me. It's what I expect. :shrug: Humans often hate anyone who isn't in their tribe. Many won't admit it openly however. 


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: amilibertine]
    #14098417 - 03/10/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

amilibertine said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not just Israel.  Not by a long shot.

I'm not going to watch a 15 minute video.  Ever.  Cut to the fucking chase.  Find a quote in print.





That video is 15 minutes worth of quotes from Israeli officials with the sources named.  No doubt you wont watch it. I'm not gonna copy and paste dozens of quotes when this video can do it for me. The fact that you wont watch it just shows you don't care what evidence anyone brings, it's not gonna change you views anyways.



I've said it for years and I'll say it again, I aint ever watching any fucking 15 minute video.  Videos are for morons.  Get me at least some part of the transcript.  The one quoted by Icelander is clearly nonsense.  It is damning not to Israel but to the credibility of the video.  Does any jackass really believe that Israel controls the US?  If they do they are clearly superior beings and you should submit.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14098439 - 03/10/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have no real idea why he said what he said.  I'd love to know for sure.

I'd never go for the extermination of a whole group of people unless I knew they were all believing the same things. But that's just me. You may feel differently.

Many basically said that all the Palestinians should be slaughtered and in some pretty nasty ways too.  I only watched part of it. I got the picture but there was nothing shocking to me. It's what I expect. :shrug: Humans often hate anyone who isn't in their tribe. Many won't admit it openly however. 



Yes but that is clearly not Israeli policy.  Because if they wanted to they could exterminate the Pallies.  That is wholly within their means.  The fact that they bend over backwards to avoid that is directly counter to anything the video might purport to reveal.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14098453 - 03/10/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

  Videos are for morons

It's basically a video of written quotes. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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