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Mr E Guest
partly animal



Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
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Quote:
1tokeovrtheline said:
Quote:
Mr E Guest said:
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1tokeovrtheline said: and it is correct, refluxing does not convert inactive to active.
Sorry - no.
It is an equilibrium, the base reflux interconverts the two. Starting with a pure sample of either the active or the inactive isomer will produce the same proportioned mixture of both after equilibrium has been attained.
This is why the same KOH reflux is applied to the remaining inactive isomer after the active one has been crystallised out, to convert a good proportion of it back into the active isomer for eventual recycling. Some of you may notice that this process could be carried out ad infinitem, in ever-decreasing circles, until virtually all of the inactive material has been converted back into active.
I've been trying to look into the relationship of refluxing and isomers, but I can't really find what I'm looking for. the chemical equilibrium of isomers is because of different boiling points right?
Wrong. What on earth makes you think that? Quote:
but aren't lysergic acid isomers chiral?
D- and L-lysergic acid are one pair of enantiomers. D- and L-isolysergic acid are another pair of enantiomers. D-lysergic acid and D-isolysergic acid are epimers, as are L-lysergic acid and L-isolysergic acid. The lysergic/isolysergic acid molecule contains two chiral atoms, C-5 and C-8. Quote:
since enantiomers have the same boiling point wouldn't there be no interconversion of the isomers?
Sorry, I don't understand your reasoning there.Quote:
Or is there enantiomeric interconversion and how does it take place from refluxing?
It's the solvent that refluxes, not the lysergic acid. Enantiomeric inversion can occur without refluxing. Raising the temperature increases the rate of reaction. It's the KOH that causes the inversion. But enantiomeric inversion would be the conversion of D- compound to the L- compound, so let's get our terminology straight:
Epimerisation of lysergic acid to isolysergic acid occurs via the abstraction of the labile proton on the carbon atom alpha to the carboxyl group (i.e. C-8). The sp2 hybridisation of the resulting carbanion means that it is planar and can thus form either epimer ('enantiomer') through reprotonation via one side or the other. Either of the epimers can undergo this process, hence its 'reversibility'. It is a process that occurs through the same transition state for either epimer. Quote:
I'm just trying to understand. Isomers are fascinating, but I'm afraid my knowledge is limited on them,
Please study some more chemistry (really). There are numerous organic chemistry books with really good chapters about isomerism in them, I really don't have the time or inclination to explain it all here.Quote:
and I don't quite understand their relationship to refluxing and distillation yet.
There isn't terribly much of one in this particular instance, besides speeding up the reaction.Quote:
Any links or citations would be great to, or just an explanation if you wouldn't mind 

That'll be $50, please.
Edited by Mr E Guest (03/15/11 09:29 AM)
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Mr E Guest said: . Please study some chemistry
That'll be $50, please.
That's exactly what I'm doing here, studying chemistry. I'm not a professional chemist or anything, pretty amateur still obviously, but I'm working pretty hard on that. Thanks for the information, sorry to have apparently annoyed you...
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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ben_dover0802
shroom addict



Registered: 09/21/08
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Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Haha my o chem professor was British and reminds me of Mr E, kinda upfront and jerkish - but helpful. Is that you Mr. "G"?? JK
But yeah, it sounds like you may be confused on some terminology...
Cool write up though. Some of the reactions I don't know but would enjoy looking at the mechanisms when I have nothing better to do. It would of course be an epic accomplishment to do it - hypothetically.
Edited by ben_dover0802 (03/13/11 08:14 PM)
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Ogla



Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 11,315
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It is a learning experience for all of us. Thanks everyone for ur comments. It has encouraged me to look further and try harder to understand what's going on in this process. Keep the comments coming. Soon we will figure this all out. Or at least I feel. We r so close.
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Wise Toad


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 2,690
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: Ogla]
#14116289 - 03/13/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Glad to see the new one, this will give me something to read tonight
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
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Re: How to Make LSD [Re: Ogla]
#14118664 - 03/14/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ben_dover0802 said: But yeah, it sounds like you may be confused on some terminology...
Cool write up though. Some of the reactions I don't know but would enjoy looking at the mechanisms when I have nothing better to do. It would of course be an epic accomplishment to do it - hypothetically.
yeah I was a little mixed up there, oh well its an ongoing process-its crazy just how far you can go with this, continually digging deeper and deeper. There's just so much to perfect, and such a fragile molecule that you need to strive for near perfection.
And thanks, I think if the information can be shared more and we can discuss the theory a little more openly then perhaps things will improve, because it would be pretty awesome to do it-hypothetically 
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losfreddy said: It is a learning experience for all of us. Thanks everyone for ur comments. It has encouraged me to look further and try harder to understand what's going on in this process. Keep the comments coming. Soon we will figure this all out. Or at least I feel. We r so close.
It definitely is, so much to learn, but somehow I feel pulled toward it, idk like mushrooms are interesting and dmt is interesting and mesclaine is interesting, but LSD is FASCINATING to me. Might sound weird but if it was all legal I would probably pursue breeding cannabis and LSD research. I know there are others who have the same fascination, so hopefully a community of sorts can form to get information out there. I agree that we are close, there's still a gap between the layman and the experienced chemist with LSD understanding, but hopefully we can bridge that gap.
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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Mr E Guest
partly animal



Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Quote:
1tokeovrtheline said: That's exactly what I'm doing here, studying chemistry. I'm not a professional chemist or anything, pretty amateur still obviously, but I'm working pretty hard on that. Thanks for the information, sorry to have apparently annoyed you...
No need to apologise, dude. I do 'annoyed' for kicks whenever I feel like it. Nice all the time gets boring. I think folk would be better off getting a decent chemistry book or five and sitting down and studying them. Repeatedly. Then ask the questions. Maybe you already do that and were just trying to clarify?
I hope you've gained a better grasp of the isomerisation process discussed previously. Could you explain what the reasoning was behind some of your misapprehensions? You may find having to explain it makes it easier to understand. To be honest, I'm intrigued as to how you came up with your ideas regarding isomerisation, refluxing and distillation - and what exactly those ideas are. The chemistry and pharmacology forum is the place to post if you want to brush up on your chemistry.
Also I appreciate how hard it can be to find out things if you don't know what you don't know and don't know that you don't know it either. How then can you know how to find out that you even need to know what you don't know you don't know? Yes, that makes perfect sense!
-------------------- Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get. All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Mr E Guest said:
Quote:
1tokeovrtheline said: That's exactly what I'm doing here, studying chemistry. I'm not a professional chemist or anything, pretty amateur still obviously, but I'm working pretty hard on that. Thanks for the information, sorry to have apparently annoyed you...
No need to apologise, dude. I do 'annoyed' for kicks whenever I feel like it. Nice all the time gets boring. I think folk would be better off getting a decent chemistry book or five and sitting down and studying them. Repeatedly. Then ask the questions. Maybe you already do that and were just trying to clarify?
I hope you've gained a better grasp of the isomerisation process discussed previously. Could you explain what the reasoning was behind some of your misapprehensions? You may find having to explain it makes it easier to understand. To be honest, I'm intrigued as to how you came up with your ideas regarding isomerisation, refluxing and distillation - and what exactly those ideas are. The chemistry and pharmacology forum is the place to post if you want to brush up on your chemistry.
Also I appreciate how hard it can be to find out things if you don't know what you don't know and don't know that you don't know it either. How then can you know how to find out that you even need to know what you don't know you don't know? Yes, that makes perfect sense! 
I do indeed read through chemistry books repeatedly, but I really want to get in to a good lab (every wednesday I drool as I walk by the windows to the best lab on campus, their shit is so sick ) -actually all this research has inspired me to strongly consider pursuing organic chemistry if I can't get into a cultural anthropology program. Somehow all my high school teachers and professors (not to mention my grandma and grandpa who both had PhD.s in chemistry) never presented it to me in the way I understand it now, and suddenly I'm finding a love for chemistry.
I'm working on the isomerization comprehension-the problem was just that I tried to find a shortcut searching things like "reflux isomerization" "distillation isomers" "refluxing epimerization" etc to see what I could find out quickly about the relationship. I now realize the biggest mistake I made was that one thing I was reading talked about isomers and then went on to describe fractional distillation, so I got the different boiling point thing from fractional distillation mixed up with that that was a stupid mistake lol. The rest of my confusion just came from generally not looking into it enough, so as you suggest I'm just going to research isomerization and distillation/refluxing until I really get it, cuz I'm the kind of guy that likes to read ten times what's needed to really cement things in there. If I need any help I'll definitely head over to the chemistry forum thanks 
and yes that does make perfect sense...as long as you read it slowly enough lol
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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illxyz
Life's a TRIP



Registered: 07/31/10
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Post deleted by illxyzReason for deletion: none
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: How to Make LSD [Re: illxyz]
#14128051 - 03/15/11 11:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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illxyz said: there are some real knowledgeable people in the chem/extractions forum here. id suggest some collab 
great work. a little hard to read all the way through in one shot
thanks, but why was it hard to read through in one shot? Was it length or grammar mistakes, cuz I read back through it and saw quite a few grammar mistakes, so I was thinking of fixing that.
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Mr E Guest said:
Quote:
1tokeovrtheline said:
Quote:
Mr E Guest said:
Quote:
1tokeovrtheline said: and it is correct, refluxing does not convert inactive to active.
Sorry - no.
It is an equilibrium, the base reflux interconverts the two. Starting with a pure sample of either the active or the inactive isomer will produce the same proportioned mixture of both after equilibrium has been attained.
This is why the same KOH reflux is applied to the remaining inactive isomer after the active one has been crystallised out, to convert a good proportion of it back into the active isomer for eventual recycling. Some of you may notice that this process could be carried out ad infinitem, in ever-decreasing circles, until virtually all of the inactive material has been converted back into active.
I've been trying to look into the relationship of refluxing and isomers, but I can't really find what I'm looking for. the chemical equilibrium of isomers is because of different boiling points right?
Wrong. What on earth makes you think that? Quote:
but aren't lysergic acid isomers chiral?
D- and L-lysergic acid are one pair of enantiomers. D- and L-isolysergic acid are another pair of enantiomers. D-lysergic acid and D-isolysergic acid are epimers, as are L-lysergic acid and L-isolysergic acid. The lysergic/isolysergic acid molecule contains two chiral atoms, C-5 and C-8. Quote:
since enantiomers have the same boiling point wouldn't there be no interconversion of the isomers?
Sorry, I don't understand your reasoning there.Quote:
Or is there enantiomeric interconversion and how does it take place from refluxing?
It's the solvent that refluxes, not the lysergic acid. Enantiomeric inversion can occur without refluxing. Raising the temperature increases the rate of reaction. It's the KOH that causes the inversion. But enantiomeric inversion would be the conversion of D- compound to the L- compound, so let's get our terminology straight:
Epimerisation of lysergic acid to isolysergic acid occurs via the abstraction of the labile proton on the carbon atom alpha to the carboxyl group (i.e. C-8). The sp2 hybridisation of the resulting carbanion means that it is planar and can thus form either epimer ('enantiomer') through reprotonation via one side or the other. Either of the epimers can undergo this process, hence its 'reversibility'. It is a process that occurs through the same transition state for either epimer. Quote:
I'm just trying to understand. Isomers are fascinating, but I'm afraid my knowledge is limited on them,
Please study some more chemistry (really). There are numerous organic chemistry books with really good chapters about isomerism in them, I really don't have the time or inclination to explain it all here.Quote:
and I don't quite understand their relationship to refluxing and distillation yet.
There isn't terribly much of one in this particular instance, besides speeding up the reaction.Quote:
Any links or citations would be great to, or just an explanation if you wouldn't mind 

That'll be $50, please. 
I feel like such a fuckin idiot, I didn't really look farther into my misunderstandings until tonight (I had some big assignments and tests), five minutes of going back over what I had previously read and just reading through your post again but paying closer attention and I got it no problem. again, thanks for the info dude
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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HugaDeadHead
yogi



Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 417
Loc: here, there, and everywhe...
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microdotty
Pro darts player!


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 1,670
Loc: England
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: HugaDeadHead]
#14546133 - 06/01/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Excellente'!!
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: microdotty]
#14554990 - 06/03/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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thanks
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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Sham87
mashAllah


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 9,818
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How is it going??
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   ...once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest places if you look at it right...
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POV
Aquatic Patterns


Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 357
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: Sham87]
#15933425 - 03/11/12 01:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Couldn't someone simply make a step-by-step instruction booklet so everyone could do this? I understand it still would not be simple, but ideally, if you made a step-by-step instruction booklet, assuming the average joe could obtain the chemicals needed, everyone could do this.
-------------------- Love, Sincerity, Desire... "If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth." "I am totally impressed with you people... Seriously, we live on a planet where we're very crammed together and I think we do really well. It's just when we watch the news and we watch entertainment... it's about peoples' conflicts tied together in the most exciting possible way."
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Ogla



Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 11,315
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: POV]
#15933568 - 03/11/12 02:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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someone could make a step by step if someone has actually made it before and understood how to make it and could explain and put it in those made easy steps
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POV
Aquatic Patterns


Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 357
Loc:
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: Ogla]
#15933661 - 03/11/12 03:12 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
losfreddy said: someone could make a step by step if someone has actually made it before and understood how to make it and could explain and put it in those made easy steps
My point exactly. Someone should put out this step-by-step guide and allow the rest of us to decide if we want to make it. Of course this would be a very ideal situation, considering that no one else would no if the guide would be legitimate or even safe for that matter. Just a thought.
-------------------- Love, Sincerity, Desire... "If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth." "I am totally impressed with you people... Seriously, we live on a planet where we're very crammed together and I think we do really well. It's just when we watch the news and we watch entertainment... it's about peoples' conflicts tied together in the most exciting possible way."
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: How to Make LSD "TEK" Version 2 [Re: POV] 1
#15933691 - 03/11/12 03:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think the key point there was that first there has to be someone who has already synthesized it.
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POV
Aquatic Patterns


Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 357
Loc:
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@psychotropicwhale Precisely!
-------------------- Love, Sincerity, Desire... "If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth." "I am totally impressed with you people... Seriously, we live on a planet where we're very crammed together and I think we do really well. It's just when we watch the news and we watch entertainment... it's about peoples' conflicts tied together in the most exciting possible way."
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