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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14136268 - 03/17/11 11:23 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
I'm probably getting way off topic now, but do you know the U.S. spends 10 times as much money to educate the mentally retarded as they spend to educate the gifted?  I saw that in an article in Newsweek a few years ago.




Ass-backwards priorities.




Seems like the gifted don't need much/any help learning, while the retards need a lot of help to even learn to tie their shoes.  I don't see how it could be 10 times more money though since they are each in school for about the same number of hours each day and teaching retards doesn't take any special equipment or facilities.  Even if retard teachers get paid 2x as much as normal teachers for some reason, 10x still doesn't make sense.  It does make sense that they'd spend somewhat more though, for the reason I just stated.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: johnm214]
    #14136607 - 03/17/11 12:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Here's where the idea of theft comes in.  When both sides of the negotiating table represent only one interest and the actual people paying the bill get none then the individuals who are supposed to be representing the bill paying people (and being paid to do so) are only representing some of the people and giving them favors in return for political support.




What does this have to do with unions?  So far as I can see, there's no categorical difference here between union and nonunion employees in this regard.  I fail to see how the people of the state aren't represented, they're democratically elected representitives make the law, generally.




They are not acting in the interests of the vast majority of the electorate.
Quote:



The problems here seem common to all government employment which is one of several good reasons disfavoring such.  I think the fascist states and communist states alike have illustrated the pitfalls of government entanglements with buisness.




I am only referring to negotiations with public sector unions.  In private sector negotiations both sides are represented.  Not so much in public sector negotiations.
Quote:



Quote:

  That has a lot of names.  One of them is fraud.  Fraud is theft.




No, fraud required intentional misrepresentation, generally, in bad faith.  Someone giving teh states money to a union who supports him politically isn't fraud: it just sucks.  The same problem exists when hiring individual employees and in all of government's functions.




When you take a job to perform one function and instead perform another to the detriment of the original function you have fraudulently obtained your job.  Lots of politicians lose their jobs and sometimes even their freedom when they fraudulently give jobs to cronies and friends and family.  Why should it be different for unions?
Quote:

 

Either way, I think its plainly a bad idea and an infringment on economic and first amendment rights to limit who can join a union and so forth, whether or not they are public sector or not.  To the extent any legislations restrict this right, it is bad policy.




False.  For one thing, as FDR noted, public employee unions are a threat to the governance of the nation.  For another, what of a workers right not to join a union?  Finally there are many examples of public sector union prohibitions.  Most federal employees do not have collective bargaining rights.  Their pay is set by Congress.  Nothing I have said relates to private sector unions.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14144520 - 03/18/11 05:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Why don't we just fire all the teachers and let computers do it?

Better yet, why don't we stop using tax money to pay for education and let people dumb enough to have kids pay for their kids education.




What a load of Bolognium.


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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14147772 - 03/19/11 10:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I thought about this for quite a while since the last time I posted in this thread.

I think the disconnect here is most people think of unions in terms of what they represent in immediate benefit to the worker - the pay bargining from day to day, the infamous coffee breaks and hours policies and that kind of thing.

I think of unions in terms of what the workplace was like before they existed.

A reversion to this state is worse to me than a few occasional eye-rolling moments


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14147893 - 03/19/11 10:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is zero reason to believe that is even possible.  Less than 10% of the private workforce is unionized and despite the idiot ramblings of union hacks they are not slaves.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14148510 - 03/19/11 01:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Yes, and if you dont get it deducted and dont pay the balance at the end people with guns will hunt you down and either lock you in a cage or kill you.  McDonalds doesnt do this.




This is a great bogeyman argument. Clearly false but doesn't it scare people well? If you don't pay your taxes and do not submit fraudulent tax information you are about as likely to see a gun or the inside of a prison as you were if you did pay your taxes. Willy Nelson was an example, he just didn't pay his taxes and none of those things happened to him. He was simply billed for the money he owed, the worst that is likely to happen if you just don't pay your taxes is that the government will take some of your stuff (until they have payed your debt) away. In fact this is non coercive. If you want to avoid taxes or regulation move to Somolia, there is no reason why the rest of your countrymen ought to put up with your crybaby antics.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14148523 - 03/19/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Seems like the gifted don't need much/any help learning, while the retards need a lot of help to even learn to tie their shoes.  I don't see how it could be 10 times more money though since they are each in school for about the same number of hours each day and teaching retards doesn't take any special equipment or facilities.  Even if retard teachers get paid 2x as much as normal teachers for some reason, 10x still doesn't make sense.  It does make sense that they'd spend somewhat more though, for the reason I just stated.



Yea but if normal students can go 30 to one classroom/teacher and special kids need 5 or 10 to one plus other additional expenses it can be quite a bit.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14148540 - 03/19/11 01:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Yes, and if you dont get it deducted and dont pay the balance at the end people with guns will hunt you down and either lock you in a cage or kill you.  McDonalds doesnt do this.




This is a great bogeyman argument. Clearly false but doesn't it scare people well? If you don't pay your taxes and do not submit fraudulent tax information you are about as likely to see a gun or the inside of a prison as you were if you did pay your taxes.




Every act of government is at the point of a gun.  Every single one.
Quote:


Willy Nelson was an example, he just didn't pay his taxes and none of those things happened to him.




Yes they did.
Quote:




He was simply billed for the money he owed, the worst that is likely to happen if you just don't pay your taxes is that the government will take some of your stuff (until they have payed your debt) away.




At  the point of a gun
Quote:



In fact this is non coercive.




So stunningly stupid it beggars belief.
Quote:



If you want to avoid taxes or regulation move to Somolia, there is no reason why the rest of your countrymen ought to put up with your crybaby antics.




And here we have one of the all time great crybaby panhandlers begging for more government largesse suggesting you, the person paying for his shit, move to Somalia if you don't like buying the baby his Maypo.  Unbelievable.  Irony meter pinned at 11.  Maybe 12.

Somebody quote this so she can see it.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14150872 - 03/19/11 09:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seems like the gifted don't need much/any help learning, while the retards need a lot of help to even learn to tie their shoes.  I don't see how it could be 10 times more money though since they are each in school for about the same number of hours each day and teaching retards doesn't take any special equipment or facilities.  Even if retard teachers get paid 2x as much as normal teachers for some reason, 10x still doesn't make sense.  It does make sense that they'd spend somewhat more though, for the reason I just stated.




It's all those stupid human rights groups wasting our tax dollars on them, in reality it makes more sense to spend less than it hurts to take care of them. the fact is that they require special care, they need more money. The job is in itself bad though. i don't believe in raising the price of the job for the mentally retarded, as it attracts people who are only interested in money.

There are too many doctors,social workers who are there for money or who simply shouldn't be there because of their personality, those people are very important, they represent our society and represent moral values of our society.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: communeart]
    #14151178 - 03/19/11 10:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
There are too many doctors,social workers who are there for money or who simply shouldn't be there because of their personality, those people are very important, they represent our society and represent moral values of our society.




If you only had the ones who were in it for reasons for other than money, you'd have about 0.01% of the amount of doctors and social workers as we do now.  What then?

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14151957 - 03/20/11 01:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

have you ever met a social worker or doctor?
I don't know how it is in the US but few do either of those professions in canada for the money... especially social work. Usually much more well paying professions take much less schooling and are less stressful.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14152272 - 03/20/11 03:48 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is zero reason to believe that is even possible.  Less than 10% of the private workforce is unionized and despite the idiot ramblings of union hacks they are not slaves.




I don't know that the person you're railing against exists. The shop model, even at its best, certainly doesn't work for every job, I don't know of any real union member or organizer that seriously advocates this.

It's fine for individual unions to bloom and die as needed - not all sectors need unions, they are best suited for a fairly unique set of working conditions, - as long as the right to form one exists, reforms brought into play by labor are hard to repeal.

I personally agree with some provisions of the bill - I think you should pay your dues to unions or professional groups out of your household income and not have your employer collect them. I support certain controls on strikes and stoppages, particularly for utilities and other vital services...but the right to unionize is a free association right, as is the right to donate to lobbying groups and causes...

People who campaigned on a platform of small, unintrusive government have no place legislating the course of negotiations between the employer and employee. It's not their business in any case and it's doubly hypocritical of the psuedo-libertarian right. 

Likewise, if I am subject to the rule of law, in a democracy, I have the right to petition my lawmakers, and an organization to do that collectively is the de facto system in this country - let teachers lose theirs after cops, after banks, after a dozen other less worthy interests.

Why should laissez-faire apply ONLY to the employer?


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14153393 - 03/20/11 11:45 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is zero reason to believe that is even possible.  Less than 10% of the private workforce is unionized and despite the idiot ramblings of union hacks they are not slaves.




I don't know that the person you're railing against exists. The shop model, even at its best, certainly doesn't work for every job, I don't know of any real union member or organizer that seriously advocates this.

It's fine for individual unions to bloom and die as needed - not all sectors need unions, they are best suited for a fairly unique set of working conditions, - as long as the right to form one exists, reforms brought into play by labor are hard to repeal.

I personally agree with some provisions of the bill - I think you should pay your dues to unions or professional groups out of your household income and not have your employer collect them. I support certain controls on strikes and stoppages, particularly for utilities and other vital services...but the right to unionize is a free association right, as is the right to donate to lobbying groups and causes...

People who campaigned on a platform of small, unintrusive government have no place legislating the course of negotiations between the employer and employee. It's not their business in any case and it's doubly hypocritical of the psuedo-libertarian right. 

Likewise, if I am subject to the rule of law, in a democracy, I have the right to petition my lawmakers, and an organization to do that collectively is the de facto system in this country - let teachers lose theirs after cops, after banks, after a dozen other less worthy interests.

Why should laissez-faire apply ONLY to the employer?





this is exactly what I've been getting. Whatever your general opinion of unions is, that should not be the main thing in deciding whether to support the bill or oppose it. That would be like deciding if someones speech is legal or not based on whether you like it or not.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14153444 - 03/20/11 11:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I dont understand this complaint...  The teachers still have a right to collectively demand a certain compensation package and collectively quit en mass if they do not receive that.  They still have this right, every worker does.

What exactly can they not do now that they could do before this bill?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14153543 - 03/20/11 12:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Here's a link to a link to a recent version of the bill.

http://www.defendwisconsin.org/2011/03/10/full-text-of-the-amended-budget-repair-bill/

It's 138 pages.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14153560 - 03/20/11 12:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
have you ever met a social worker or doctor?
I don't know how it is in the US but few do either of those professions in canada for the money... especially social work. Usually much more well paying professions take much less schooling and are less stressful.




You must at least concede that if we eliminated all doctors and social workers who weren't in it for money that there would be fewer doctors and social workers?  How would that be a benefit to society?

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14153682 - 03/20/11 12:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you only had the ones who were in it for reasons for other than money, you'd have about 0.01% of the amount of doctors and social workers as we do now.  What then?



it is not true, it is hard for nations who have through history been bent into a certain way to be able to have the talent to be part of all types of trades required for a nation. the money factor is important but mostly for certain types of trades, and doctors/social workers is not one of them though of course it does matter.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14153740 - 03/20/11 12:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
have you ever met a social worker or doctor?
I don't know how it is in the US but few do either of those professions in canada for the money... especially social work. Usually much more well paying professions take much less schooling and are less stressful.




You must at least concede that if we eliminated all doctors and social workers who weren't in it for money that there would be fewer doctors and social workers?  How would that be a benefit to society?



Eliminating social workers would definitely be a plus.  Then purge any notion that sociology is a degree program.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: communeart]
    #14154298 - 03/20/11 02:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
have you ever met a social worker or doctor?
I don't know how it is in the US but few do either of those professions in canada for the money... especially social work. Usually much more well paying professions take much less schooling and are less stressful.




You must at least concede that if we eliminated all doctors and social workers who weren't in it for money that there would be fewer doctors and social workers?  How would that be a benefit to society?




Doctors maybe, I've never met one that was in it for the money, but I can believe it as a possibility, mostly doctors here who are like that leave to the US anyway so our numbers would be mostly unchanged. However, social workers? Have you ever met a single social worker? IME the majority of them if not all are in it for personal reasons. The pay is usually shit, nobody gets into it for the money (at least in canada), where have you got this idea from?

Further you are discounting that money is not always the only factor in setting someone's carer someone can be motivated by money as well as interest or altruism. In fact that would be requisite for social work since it pays shit wages. Both those carers on a dollar value are lower paying than some alternatives which require less education time/cost.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14154886 - 03/20/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I dont understand this complaint...  The teachers still have a right to collectively demand a certain compensation package and collectively quit en mass if they do not receive that.  They still have this right, every worker does.

What exactly can they not do now that they could do before this bill?




I take it you're referring to the right to simply quit?

I happen to live in a place with very weak worker's rights, and I'm here to tell you, it's almost impossible to organize any sort of collective action here - you're "let go" for some other reason the second you let it get at all above radar.

That's the very reason people unionized to begin with - to provide solidarity during bargaining. Otherwise, before any circumstances can change, they have to be bad enough to motivate someone working under debt, or to pay a family's bills, to quit - the employers just fire the most mobile, most rabble-rousing employees and keep the ones with the most need to work

To which some people say, "Fuck'em - I bargained with my job on my own, why shouldn't they?" But there are simply some jobs where everything you bargain on the basis of in a white collar or creative environment - attendance, promptness, skill in the work - is simply less applicable, or demanded of all. Yet, the work is hard, and it's the industry that moves our society forward - so it's somewhat disingenuous to say they "deserve" low pay or sneer like eric cartman that they should "just go to college"

It should be a decent and well compensated thing to do a hard and soul-numbing job to feed your family. Especially on behalf of a company that sends massive profits home with CEOs. Let suits go broke first, they do the least.


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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