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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14115502 - 03/13/11 06:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think I remember you saying yourself that any need of unions was long over.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
#14116574 - 03/13/11 09:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Seuss said:
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Annapurna1 said:
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Seuss said:
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its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...
Why? It isn't that hard. The vast majority (77%) of the population does just fine without unions.
you dont have to be a union member to be represented by a union (or more correctly..unions)...you might not be in a union..but unions are still the reason that your not in a sweatshop either...
Unions are a cancer upon the hard working people that actually earn their money. Claiming that unions somehow represent me, or other non-union workers, is a joke. Unions care about one thing, and one thing only, making the union leaders filthy rich at the expense of others... both the union members, the employer, and ultimately the consumer. I have nothing against union workers, as often they have no choice, but unions themselves, and especially union leaders, are a disgrace. You should be ashamed for supporting them... and you have the audacity to call me a corporate shill. Look in the fucking mirror.
anti-union rants like that are exactly what corporate shills get paid to do.. although i would agree that many unions are poorly run...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (03/14/11 12:58 PM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 12 years, 6 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Icelander]
#14116774 - 03/13/11 10:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The biggest flaw here is that these are public unions. Instead of two private entities with the same goal (profit for themselves), it is the teachers fighting for profit, and yet they elect those who they bargain with. Also, the politicians have no immediate financial/personal risk by making poor/horrible business decisions, so they don't hesitate to do what "looks" best or increases their chances of re-election.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: 4896744]
#14118896 - 03/14/11 11:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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iThink said: The biggest flaw here is that these are public unions. Instead of two private entities with the same goal (profit for themselves), it is the teachers fighting for profit, and yet they elect those who they bargain with.
Where? I know of no right of franchise for public employees.
Whats the problem even if they do this?
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Also, the politicians have no immediate financial/personal risk by making poor/horrible business decisions, so they don't hesitate to do what "looks" best or increases their chances of re-election.
Why not? This is only true if the populace is stupid or ignorant. I'm not sure how you could get around that. Stupid people and ignorant people can eventually learn or be convinced. Corrupt and power-hungry people don't care. I know of no solution to the former that doesn't empower the later- to our collective detriment.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 12 years, 6 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: johnm214]
#14119085 - 03/14/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Where? I know of no right of franchise for public employees.
Whats the problem even if they do this?
Where? What do you mean where? You do know this thread is about the public teacher's union in Wisconsin don't you?
And the problem is that there is not enough vested interest in the actual feasibility of what is essentially a government run company. There is no immediate chance of failure due to the ability to borrow vast amounts of money. The only immediate threat the politicians face is not being re-elected.
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Why not? This is only true if the populace is stupid or ignorant. I'm not sure how you could get around that. Stupid people and ignorant people can eventually learn or be convinced. Corrupt and power-hungry people don't care. I know of no solution to the former that doesn't empower the later- to our collective detriment.
The populace is pretty stupid or ignorant on most issues. Also, I agree with the last part of that statement, but my only point is that public union's inevitably lead to outrageous "business plans".
-------------------- Live your Life!
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: 4896744]
#14119359 - 03/14/11 01:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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iThink said:
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Where? I know of no right of franchise for public employees.
Whats the problem even if they do this?
Where? What do you mean where? You do know this thread is about the public teacher's union in Wisconsin don't you?
No, I wasn't aware- I was taking the question asked in the title to be the topic of the thread.
Even with that, however; I remain skeptical: do WI municipalities grant suffrage to teachers in their city schools; WI state provide suffrage to teachers in schools within the legislative district? Not the way it works around my neck of the woods: whether you have suffrage is granted statutorily with no dependable on your employment as a teacher or other government job.
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Why not? This is only true if the populace is stupid or ignorant. I'm not sure how you could get around that. Stupid people and ignorant people can eventually learn or be convinced. Corrupt and power-hungry people don't care. I know of no solution to the former that doesn't empower the later- to our collective detriment.
The populace is pretty stupid or ignorant on most issues. Also, I agree with the last part of that statement, but my only point is that public union's inevitably lead to outrageous "business plans".
Yeah, I don't care for the public's general shortsightedness and seeming willingness to believe platforms of people known to lie and ignore campaign positions (i.e. Obama), but its probably better now than it ever has been. We've got ease of publishing and information dissemination the writers of the US Constitution would never have dreamed of. Hopefully this will also allow people to become educated on fallacies and failings in logic so they vote for what is really in their interest.
A bit of an offshoot, but note how the terrible attrocities and disasterous public movements in world history are invariably led by radical youth? Those without life experience- often without much education? Khmer Rouge genocide, China's various attrocities such as the cultural revolution and so forth, many of socialism's supporters during the russian revolution, rwandan genocide, et cet.
In interview after interview, and per other evidence gathering, the people who commited those terrible acts that were ultimately self-harming even to the perpetrators, they profess ignorance of the consequences of what they were doing and the cause they were supporting. While some is likely to rationalize their bad acts, its pretty coherent in its basic message: young people without much practical clue whats going on with a monoculture of thought.
Hopefully with the better ways of reaching people and seeking knowledge, there will be less chance for such ignorance to spread in the future.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,388
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14119464 - 03/14/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anna, I was interested in your opinion regarding unions and the fact that they cause a higher unemployment rate.
Do you suppose that the auto unions may have had a bailout plan in the works before the last presidential election?
Have you heard any rumors involving unions and organized crime?
I care deeply about your input and await your response with bated breath...
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: johnm214]
#14119607 - 03/14/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: A bit of an offshoot, but note how the terrible attrocities and disasterous public movements in world history are invariably led by radical youth? Those without life experience- often without much education? Khmer Rouge genocide, China's various attrocities such as the cultural revolution and so forth, many of socialism's supporters during the russian revolution, rwandan genocide, et cet.
Hmm, I've never noticed that. Pol Pot was 50 when he took over Cambodia, Mao was 72 at the beginning of the cultural revolution, Stalin was 39, Lenin was 47, and Trotsky was 38 at the beginning of the Russian revolution. I don't know who was involved in the Rwandan genocide, but I believe it was the Rwandan military. Are you saying the Rwandan military was run by radical youth?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14119773 - 03/14/11 02:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Run by" and "committed by" are often different people, and often different demographics. Its easier to build up a fervor in the youth.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
#14119864 - 03/14/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: "Run by" and "committed by" are often different people, and often different demographics. Its easier to build up a fervor in the youth.
"Useful idiots". Otherwise known as dupes and schmucks.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
#14119909 - 03/14/11 03:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: "Run by" and "committed by" are often different people, and often different demographics. Its easier to build up a fervor in the youth.
Agreed, but that is not what was claimed:
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A bit of an offshoot, but note how the terrible attrocities and disasterous public movements in world history are invariably led by radical youth?
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14120221 - 03/14/11 04:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Back on topic, the WI law will lower the per student funding from the state. This gives local school boards less money with which to pay teachers amongst other things.
Further, it prevents collective bargaining, so instead of negotiating only one contract the school boards will need to negotiate many contracts, and inherently inefficient process.
It will prevent employers from deducting union fees from pay checks. This will decrease the unions ability to collect fees, and put the an additional administrative cost on the union.
It caps raises at 1% Since inflation is more then 1% it means that government employees will be paid less in real dollars when they retire then when they start.
It will increase government employee's contribution for their retirement and health care plans significantly.
Teachers have generally been prevented from striking through either law or contractual obligation so if they strike they risk being fired "for cause".
At the end of the day it will do three things. 1) Make it more difficult for unions to organize, 2) Decrease unions ability to give value to their members by creating barriers in negotiating, 3) Cut salary and benefits from government employees automatically.
My mother who works as a secretary in a public school (for little more then minimum wage and benefits) stands to lose more then a $100,000 dollars in benefits, salary, and retirement over the next seven years because of this policy.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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snoot
look alive ∞




Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 9,644
Loc: 45º parallel
Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Icelander]
#14120252 - 03/14/11 04:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think what bothers me most is how Walker went about doing this, first by saying it was a necesssitity to passed said law cause it was needed to balance the budget, then goes and completely removes all mention of the budget to get it passed, and apparently breaks the law in the mean time.
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
Edited by snoot (03/14/11 04:38 PM)
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Smackshadow]
#14120304 - 03/14/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Off topic:
If a corporation, partnership or other business has the right to organize in order to create a for-profit institution. And part of creating a profit is to minimize the costs of creating a final product or service, then employees should have the right to organize and collectively bargain to maximize what they can sell their labor for.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Smackshadow]
#14120327 - 03/14/11 04:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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That makes sense, but then the employer also has a right to fire the lot of them and hire new people.
I see nothing about this new legislation that say the teachers cant band together and all quit if they dont get what they want. They are free to quit, nobody is making them work. They are free to collectively demand a certain compensation package and collectively quit if that is not accepted.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 12 years, 6 days
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Smackshadow]
#14120597 - 03/14/11 05:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smackshadow said: Off topic:
If a corporation, partnership or other business has the right to organize in order to create a for-profit institution. And part of creating a profit is to minimize the costs of creating a final product or service, then employees should have the right to organize and collectively bargain to maximize what they can sell their labor for.
I would agree, except this doesn't work when the unions are negotiating with the government. Perfect example is the Wisconsin teachers. They were averaging 50k+ a year. They also had extremely good benefits. These wants would never be met in the private sector because it is completely unfeasible to run it efficiently with this much labor cost.
They employ the employers in a sense. They have lots of voting power and the politicians often rely on them for re-election.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: snoot]
#14120740 - 03/14/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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snoot said: I think what bothers me most is how Walker went about doing this, first by saying it was a necesssitity to passed said law cause it was needed to balance the budget, then goes and completely removes all mention of the budget to get it passed, and apparently breaks the law in the mean time.
No. The people who were nefarious were the Dems who fled. A quorum was required for budget votes but there was no stricture against splitting the bill to carve out the money from the other aspects.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14120954 - 03/14/11 06:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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ChuangTzu said:
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johnm214 said: A bit of an offshoot, but note how the terrible attrocities and disasterous public movements in world history are invariably led by radical youth? Those without life experience- often without much education? Khmer Rouge genocide, China's various attrocities such as the cultural revolution and so forth, many of socialism's supporters during the russian revolution, rwandan genocide, et cet.
Hmm, I've never noticed that. Pol Pot was 50 when he took over Cambodia, Mao was 72 at the beginning of the cultural revolution, Stalin was 39, Lenin was 47, and Trotsky was 38 at the beginning of the Russian revolution. I don't know who was involved in the Rwandan genocide, but I believe it was the Rwandan military. Are you saying the Rwandan military was run by radical youth?
I'm speaking of the political base, not the leaders. I would assume that practically the leaders need to be at least middle age to have had the political connections to even push for power by whatever means they achieve it. These people seemed to be largely supported by an uneducated and perhaps naive group of radical youth who could commit all sorts of atrocious acts under their fervent faith in their perfect philosophy- generally ignorant of the prior examples of such being attempted (not that their leaders were: I know Pol Pot was specifically warned by China not to try and achieve communism in a short period, but he just smiled and boasted "we will be the first nation to create a completely communist society without wasting time on intermediate steps." Yikes).
In the order you mention:
- Khmer Rouge came to power through their revolutionary army composed mostly of young, rural, volunteers pushing for Mao-style Marxism. The regime specifically exalted the youth and peasant "old people" (not referring to age- The Khmer Rouge regarded the capitalist swine in the cities "new people" as they were undergoing the "reeducation" process which would strip them of their past identity, life.) Youth didn't have their memories tainted by pre-"year zero" Cambodia and were especially valued and recruited as politically more reliable. Pol Pot had some of his most fanatical devotees in the youth group called the Communist Youth League of Kampuchea. Not sure if this is sufficiently sourced, but it matches what I've read elsewhere:
"Khieu Thirith's management of youth groups meant that Pol Pot had ample reserves of zealous young cadres, "the nucleus and wick of the struggle," committed to imposing the party center's will throughout the country.... Pol Pot considered Youth League alumni as his most loyal and reliable supporters, and used them to gain control of the central and of the regional CPK apparatus. The powerful Khieu Thirith, minister of social action, was responsible for directing the youth movement." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia Additionally, the youth generally didn't have an opportunity to have yet produced any wealth, received any special education, learned a foreign language, gotten glasses, or to have advanced far in buddhism, and so were spared execution for those slights as well. With so many people being imprisoned, crippled, and killed, this was not a trivial thing to simply be existent, and they often were recruited by the regime to work the "new people" in the work camps or as interrogators/executioners.
"The use of children and young people as executioners in the killings of various strata of the population (including near relatives of the executioners) was a faithful copy of the Chinese cultural revolution. Pol Pot and Ieng Sary's policy of relying mainly on the poor and lower-middle-class peasants to carry out revolution instead of on the working class was a product of Mao Tse Tung's thought." Genocide in Cambodia: documents from the trial of Pol Pot and Ieng Sary
- Mao had the Red Guard that largely carried out the cultural revolution. See: description and cited sources at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards_%28People%27s_Republic_of_China%29 In the existing accounts and footage of these events, you see it is usually young folks destroying temples, beating people, shooting or burying people, .et cet for the state. Additionally, Mao's army was composed of youth during their war for power, and the great changes Mao ordered were carried out relatively soon after seizing control- often by these same youth. They also formed the troops and lower level officers of the groups who carried out the killings of the various groups Mao decided needed to die outright. (see the quote above in the Rwanda section)
- Lenin had the mutinous armed forces troops, who killed their officers and disobeyed their commands to fire upon the revolting public during the Febuary revolution, which allowed the uprising to continue and gave Lennin a chance to return to Russia and start his revolution against the provisional government- bringing along many of these same young men from the armed forces.
"To quell the riots, the Tsar looked to the army. At least 180,000 troops were available in the capital, but most were either untrained or injured. Historian Ian Beckett suggests around 12,000 could be regarded as reliable, but even these proved reluctant to move in on the crowd, since it included so many women. It was for this reason that when, on March 11 [O.S. February 26], the Tsar ordered the army to suppress the rioting by force, troops began to mutiny."Wikipedia, Citations ommited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution
- Rwanda's genocide was carried out by a significant portion of radical youth. The more extreme agitators have been recognized as the Impuzamugambi, which was a group specifically composed of young people. These people were regarded as the most extreme in their agitation, and methods, in carrying out the killings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impuzamugambi The larger group that led the genocide, the Interahamwe, was also composed of a youth movement, though supervised by older state actors who administered some kind of public work's campaign before they decided to focus their efforts on killing people. http://www.massviolence.org/Interahamwe
It seems to me this is more than just a coincidence or a consequence of the fact that most armies are composed of young men. In all these events it is not just the fact that there is a disproportionate amount of young committing the heinous acts and allowing radical regimes to come to power, but the fact that they often are seen as the most radical and unflinching in the execution of atrocities, as is the case with: Rawanda youth groups/militias, Chinese Red Guard, et cet
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: johnm214]
#14121229 - 03/14/11 07:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't disagree with that assessment, but that's not at all what you said...
I wonder if the political base of perhaps all revolutionary change is mostly effected by young people, regardless of whether there were atrocities involved, since it seems like young people are the least invested in the current system, are less likely to have connections within the current system, and/or the fact that most people in most countries tend to be young (or have tended to be in the past).
I don't know what this has to do with the topic of the thread though...
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Mr.Al]
#14122340 - 03/14/11 10:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mr.Al said: Anna, I was interested in your opinion regarding unions and the fact that they cause a higher unemployment rate.
and where did you get this "fact"?...
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Do you suppose that the auto unions may have had a bailout plan in the works before the last presidential election?
im not sure what their role in that bailout was either before or after the 2008 elections.. but its still better than bailing out the bankers so that they could keep gambling...
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Have you heard any rumors involving unions and organized crime?
i did mention that many unions were poorly run in my earlier post.. and cozying up to the mafia doesnt help much...OTOH..the mafia isnt any worse than dick cheney and halliburton either...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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