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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: libertarian23]
    #14104743 - 03/11/11 04:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That is not how the current union law works.  But Walker is trying to make it in Wisconsin.  Freedom to associate and disassociate and freedom not to pay dues.  That's pretty much it


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 78
Last seen: 12 years, 10 days
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14107699 - 03/12/11 07:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

he did exclude firemen and police but that was so that this part could get through without the demagogury coming at him from all sides...the police and firefighters will always have us by the balls if we cant get past the fact that a lot of these services suck anyways...police left their mandate of protecting and serving a long time ago and now they're just another revenue stream for the state...read some of radley balko's postings and youll see how swat raids fuck us over and how the push for militarization in the wod is nuts

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: libertarian23]
    #14109036 - 03/12/11 01:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The government can just refuse to recognize the union, post job offers and interview candidates who then can negotiate for themselves their own deal.  Then there is the idea of compulsory union dues.  That you can certainly make illegal as it is coercion.




its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...

i would agree that forcing the said worker to pay union dues to fund democratic candidates is not particularly palatable...but the flipside is that without the union.. the worker is forced to accept slave-labour wages.. which in turn become higher profits that go to fund repugnicans...

so simply eliminating the union wont save the worker from being forced to make political contributions against their will...in fact..doing so forces them to fund candidates that are openly promising to dig them deeper into a hole...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14109112 - 03/12/11 01:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  Ive done it before.  If your skills and ability truly do make you a vital asset, then its easy as hell to negotiate for yourself.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14109249 - 03/12/11 02:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  It isn't that hard.  The vast majority (77%) of the population does just fine without unions.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14109276 - 03/12/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

The government can just refuse to recognize the union, post job offers and interview candidates who then can negotiate for themselves their own deal.  Then there is the idea of compulsory union dues.  That you can certainly make illegal as it is coercion.




its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  Millions of people do it whenever they change jobs including most government employees.  If the government doesn't get enough qualified applicants it sweetens the pot or it folds the program.  Some jobs are only worth so much.  At the point at which the cost of filling the job becomes too high you fold the job.  See GM.
Quote:



i would agree that forcing the said worker to pay union dues to fund democratic candidates is not particularly palatable...but the flipside is that without the union.. the worker is forced to accept slave-labour wages.. which in turn become higher profits that go to fund repugnicans...




This is, of course, a fantasy.  Nobody is forced to take any particular job and there is, sadly, a law against slave labor wages, called the min imum wage law, that fosters increased unemployment.
Quote:



so simply eliminating the union wont save the worker from being forced to make political contributions against their will...in fact..doing so forces them to fund candidates that are openly promising to dig them deeper into a hole...




Sadly this bill does not eliminate the union.  Even FDR knew that public work force unions were anathema.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14110087 - 03/12/11 05:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

seems like there should be equity of power. If the employer (government) can act as a group to negotiate, why not the the employee?

Interesting that no one here claims to know exactly what the bill does...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14110114 - 03/12/11 05:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
seems like there should be equity of power. If the employer (government) can act as a group to negotiate, why not the the employee?



There are hundreds of different school districts and police districts and fire districts in every state.  There are also hundreds of public works departments and numerous other private enterprises competing for the same employees.  There is not one government employer octopus.  Public sector unions are 100% about protecting incompetents, giving power and paychecks to union management parasites, and funding Democrat candidates.
Quote:



Interesting that no one here claims to know exactly what the bill does...




I believe I have presented it but if you want to know from somewhere else you can always just google it.


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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
Stranger

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 268
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14110581 - 03/12/11 06:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  Ive done it before.  If your skills and ability truly do make you a vital asset, then its easy as hell to negotiate for yourself.




Your micro negotiation for a relative raise within the same pay scale is not analogous to the radical elevation of the working class

That is the goal of unions and the source of their pride. To make it so that working class people can actually live and work at a decent standard. Something we didn't have in our grand or great-grandfather's time in this country but now do - thanks to unions and progressivism. Something we're losing by the hour in the red-state political climate.

The issue of collective bargaining is educatory. Smart markets require educated participants and manual laborers generally don't know the value of the work they are selling - they lack the educatory equipment to truly price to the market.

Bonding in a union to offset this power isn't "blackmail of an employer" until that union has become exclusive in membership and stifled competition - then it stops being a union and starts being a guild or even a sort of trust in its own right.

The proper role of the capitalist is the role of lender. The bank loans me money to start in business, they are repaid by the terms of the loan - they don't become my boss.


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I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14111368 - 03/12/11 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




no it's not, I've done it on most jobs I've worked. a guy I worked with did
so as well, if an employer is in need of skilled labor then that employer is
willing to pay for that service. if they dont want to keep me on payroll to
handle 3 phase electrical or setup and repair of machinery then they can pay
for more to contract an outside company, in the mean time while I'm on
payroll I'll handle other duties to keep my time occupied

do we pay pris $28/hr to work his little butt off all day every day or do we
pay an electrician, hydraulic specialist, etc...  $150/hr for 3 days every week

when I waited tables I negotiated my hourly pay, I started at $1/hr more
than anyone else was making and I pulled more in tips as well, collective
bargaining only protects the weak, lazy and stupid

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14111397 - 03/12/11 09:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Your micro negotiation for a relative raise within the same pay scale is not analogous to the radical elevation of the working class

That is the goal of unions and the source of their pride. To make it so that working class people can actually live and work at a decent standard





so why do cops, fire fighters and teachers always claim they arent paid
enough, why do other professionals with similar degrees always make more?

are the unions working for the worker or are they working for themselves

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
Stranger

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 268
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14113106 - 03/13/11 06:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Your micro negotiation for a relative raise within the same pay scale is not analogous to the radical elevation of the working class

That is the goal of unions and the source of their pride. To make it so that working class people can actually live and work at a decent standard





so why do cops, fire fighters and teachers always claim they arent paid
enough, why do other professionals with similar degrees always make more?

are the unions working for the worker or are they working for themselves




professionals with "similar" degrees "always" make more?

How much, in your opinion, should teachers and firefighters make? (cops as we know them pretty much need to just end, imo, but that's another thread)


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14113152 - 03/13/11 07:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> How much, in your opinion, should teachers and firefighters make? (cops as we know them pretty much need to just end, imo, but that's another thread)

No idea.  Pay should be determined by qualifications and market demand.  If a thousand people want to be cops, and they are all equally qualified, and only ten positions are available, then the job should only pay what the ten cheapest are willing to work for.  If some of those thousand are more qualified than the rest, better educated, more training, job experience, etc, then they should get hired first at a higher pay than the others.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14113599 - 03/13/11 10:45 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> How much, in your opinion, should teachers and firefighters make? (cops as we know them pretty much need to just end, imo, but that's another thread)

No idea.  Pay should be determined by qualifications and market demand.  If a thousand people want to be cops, and they are all equally qualified, and only ten positions are available, then the job should only pay what the ten cheapest are willing to work for.  If some of those thousand are more qualified than the rest, better educated, more training, job experience, etc, then they should get hired first at a higher pay than the others.



Win. 

I remember back in the eighties my friend was a union auto-worker at the Tarrytown GM plant (now long closed and derelict).  In order to get a job there you had to have a connection.  Not in the company.  In the union.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14113629 - 03/13/11 10:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  It isn't that hard.  The vast majority (77%) of the population does just fine without unions.




you dont have to be a union member to be represented by a union (or more correctly..unions)...you might not be in a union..but unions are still the reason that your not in a sweatshop either...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14113656 - 03/13/11 10:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
but unions are still the reason that your not in a sweatshop either...




Nope. The reason I'm not in a sweatshop is I worked my ass off, didn't piss my money away on shit I didn't need, saved, planned ahead and didn't look to others to hand me shit.

The unions played no part.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14113857 - 03/13/11 11:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

For myself they have actually been a detriment.  In construction they interfere with production and competition.  Consider this idea.  If contractors were to organize to set prices against a disparate group of buyers they would be arrested for price fixing.  When a nationwide or statewide union conspires to fix prices charged to a varied group of clients, which is what each and every municipality is, the nitwits think it's good.  If contractors had their own installed stooges sitting on the council that negotiates against them they would be charged with bribery.  When unions install stooges in political office to sit across the table from them the nitwits like it.  Union membership in this country is 12% or so.  Private industry unionization is under 10%.  There are more members of public sector unions, which even FDR considered anathema, than there are private sector union members.  Why?  Because they destroy companies and jobs.  They increase costss for everyone else.  EVERYONE ELSE suffers to feed the union till.  They are our natural adversaries.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14115051 - 03/13/11 04:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

its absolutely rediculous to think that any one worker could negotiate a fair deal for themselves against a large govt or corporation without a union to represent them...




Why?  It isn't that hard.  The vast majority (77%) of the population does just fine without unions.




you dont have to be a union member to be represented by a union (or more correctly..unions)...you might not be in a union..but unions are still the reason that your not in a sweatshop either...




Unions are a cancer upon the hard working people that actually earn their money.  Claiming that unions somehow represent me, or other non-union workers, is a joke.  Unions care about one thing, and one thing only, making the union leaders filthy rich at the expense of others... both the union members, the employer, and ultimately the consumer.  I have nothing against union workers, as often they have no choice, but unions themselves, and especially union leaders, are a disgrace.  You should be ashamed for supporting them... and you have the audacity to call me a corporate shill.  Look in the fucking mirror.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14115144 - 03/13/11 05:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There was a time imo when unions served a very important need. There was no organized crime in the unions at that time.  The Jimmy Hoffa's came later.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Icelander]
    #14115419 - 03/13/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
There was a time imo when unions served a very important need. There was no organized crime in the unions at that time.  The Jimmy Hoffa's came later.



:flowstone:


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