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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: johnm214]
    #14172801 - 03/23/11 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I gave you guys a source for it yes and it was a higher tax rate not higher amount of taxes. It was an observation made by Warren Buffet. He was seen saying it on real time with Bill Maher, I can't find it on youtube but you might be able to find  it on the HBO site. I couldn't send you a workable link if I wanted because I'm Canadian and I can't access the american site.

CPI indexed inflation is a measurement of the buying power of money over time, when talking about income it is important to look in terms of CPI inflation instead of monetary inflation as far too many statisticians commonly do. Sure the income of the lowest bunch may be stagnant when you look at it in terms of the commodities that money can buy, the wages are lower. A role for unions in this equation is likely that union contracts often ask for raises that are some what on par with CPI inflation while IME raises given by employers are more often barely on par with monetary inflation, never-mind CPI.

The problem is that the richest are getting tax cuts and the poor are getting nothing and then when the budget is short it's the poor who have to pay the price. The rich should not get tax cuts until the budget is balanced. Not that attacking these unions will actually remotely balance the budget anyway. It's irresponsible to give out tax cuts while the deficit soars, the US has seen proof that tax cuts don't pay for themselves from the Reagan and bush years. What is hard to understand about this?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14174042 - 03/24/11 03:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:


The interesting development in that time though has been the near abolition of corporate taxes.




Which is an all-time howler from this guy.  One of his biggest whoppers ever.
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/12/15/u-s-to-have-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world/

Quote:

Most of the time being number one is good. But when it comes to having the highest tax rate in the world, it is much better for a country to be bringing up the rear.

Currently Japan holds the inauspicious distinction of having the highest corporate income tax rate in the world (39.5 percent). The United States is a close second, only a few tenths-of-percentage points behind.

Japan will soon fall from the top spot because it has finally recognized what the rest of the industrialized world realized over a decade ago: A low corporate income tax rate is vital for economic growth in the global marketplace. As such, Japan just announced it will reduce its corporate income tax rate by 5 percentage points down to around 35 percent. This remains far above the 25 percent average rate of other industrialized countries, but for them it is a start.

Japan’s reduction will leave the U.S. in the uncomfortable position of having the highest corporate income tax rate in the industrialized world. Hopefully Congress will finally see fit to lower the rate now that we will hold that disreputable title.





One of the most egregious liars to ever grace the Politics Forum.




I don't think the issue is the statutory "corporate income tax" in the united states - I think it's the amount of business done here without paying that rate.

They could make the rate 80 percent and it doesn't matter, if the corp they're trying to tax doesn't pay taxes in the US, despite being a US company in every sense but legal.

also seriously I don't know if you can call people egregious when you're using the heritage foundation as a source.


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I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14174274 - 03/24/11 05:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> I think it's the amount of business done here without paying that rate.

There are two issues...

1) If taxes are too high, companies will move somewhere cheaper

2) There are a ton of loopholes in the tax code that allow companies and individuals to avoid paying taxes.

Lower the tax rates to keep companies in the country and close the loopholes (simplify the tax laws) so that everybody (companies included) pay their fair share.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14174338 - 03/24/11 06:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
I think the question to ask about those charts is, who created the wealth?





I presume you propose that the top 1% waved a magic wand and *poof* "created" the wealth?
Or is it possible that they just took money they had and were given by tax breaks and under-paid others to create for them?





It is impossible to "underpay" someone, much the same as it is impossible to "overtax" someone.

The first can just work somewhere else, the second can just live somewhere else.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14174346 - 03/24/11 06:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> The first can just work somewhere else, the second can just live somewhere else.

According to the union shills, working and living someplace else is often not an option... thus, without unions to ensure decent pay, people will have to give up that third SUV and their families will starve.


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Offlinesexondrugs
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14175348 - 03/24/11 11:46 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
My first critique of the graph is that it presumes that wealth scales linearly with dollars.




That referenced graph has nothing to do with wealth - it has to do with income.

Quote:

DieCommie said:A more accurate portrayal would be to graph the income on a logarithmic scale, that way it doesn't suppress the gains the poor have made by smashing them down at the bottom with thick lines.  The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting richer.




These figures are from the Census Bureau

Between 1970 and 2008:
- households at the 10th percent of household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from $10.02k to $12.16k (a 21.31% increase).
- households at the 50th percentile of the household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from 43.22k to 50.30k (a 16.4% increase)
- households at the 90th percentile of the household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from 91.41k to 138.30k (a 49.66% increase).

These changes have led to a dramatic share in income earned by the top 10% of US households.  There has been a dramatic increase in income inequality from what is commonly thought of as the “good old days” (1950s). 

Sex

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: sexondrugs]
    #14175374 - 03/24/11 11:51 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So what?  If rich people make less money do you think poor or middle class people are going to get any?  And if rich people make less money they won't be so screwed on their taxes and hence there will be a greater tax burden on the next group of schmucks.

You all should be goddamn happy rich people are making all that money. They pay the bills for you.


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Invisiblejebustrist
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Registered: 07/08/09
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14175400 - 03/24/11 11:57 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, no, the tax burden has been slowly shifting to the majority for some time now.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: sexondrugs]
    #14175403 - 03/24/11 11:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sexondrugs said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
My first critique of the graph is that it presumes that wealth scales linearly with dollars.




That referenced graph has nothing to do with wealth - it has to do with income.






Exactly, that is my critique.  Though wealth does scale with income dollars, it does not linearly scale like the axis of that graph insinuates.


Quote:

sexondrugs said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:A more accurate portrayal would be to graph the income on a logarithmic scale, that way it doesn't suppress the gains the poor have made by smashing them down at the bottom with thick lines.  The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting richer.




These figures are from the Census Bureau

Between 1970 and 2008:
- households at the 10th percent of household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from $10.02k to $12.16k (a 21.31% increase).
- households at the 50th percentile of the household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from 43.22k to 50.30k (a 16.4% increase)
- households at the 90th percentile of the household income distribution saw their real incomes increase from 91.41k to 138.30k (a 49.66% increase).

These changes have led to a dramatic share in income earned by the top 10% of US households.  There has been a dramatic increase in income inequality from what is commonly thought of as the “good old days” (1950s). 

Sex




So every body has seen an increase, every body is doing better.  The richer are getting richer, the poor are getting richer - everybody is getting richer.  Any complaint beyond that is simply jealousy and envy.  The modern american poor are the richest 'poor' that have ever existed.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: jebustrist]
    #14175451 - 03/24/11 12:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jebustrist said:
Actually, no, the tax burden has been slowly shifting to the majority for some time now.



Absolutely false.

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Share of taxes paid by top 10%

1999-----66.45%
2000-----67.33%
2001-----64.89%
2002-----65.73%
2003-----65.84%
2004-----68.19%
2005-----70.30%
2006-----70.79%
2007-----71.22%
2008-----69.94%

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125997180

Quote:

It turns out that nearly half of all Americans don't have to pay any federal income tax. In 2009, 47 percent of all filers paid nothing. It's a number that's gone up significantly in just a couple of years. Robert Siegel talks to Roberton Williams, who's been crunching the numbers at the Tax Policy Institute in Washington. According to Williams, millions escape filing because their incomes are too low or they're eligible for deductions, credits and exemptions.




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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14175464 - 03/24/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In 2009, 47 percent of all filers paid nothing.




That includes me.  :cheers:

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14175834 - 03/24/11 01:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

In 2009, 47 percent of all filers paid nothing.




That includes me.  :cheers:




Lucky bastard.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14175845 - 03/24/11 01:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know about that.  I'd rather not be that fucking broke again.


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Offlinesexondrugs
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14176008 - 03/24/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:So every body has seen an increase, every body is doing better.  The richer are getting richer, the poor are getting richer - everybody is getting richer.  Any complaint beyond that is simply jealousy and envy.  The modern american poor are the richest 'poor' that have ever existed.




Everyone is doing better, but the gains have not be evenly distributed. 

I is also not fair to say that the poor have been getting richer or the the modern american poor are the richest poor that ever existed.  The poverty rate now is higher than it was 40 years ago and most western industrialized countries have higher poverty thresholds than the US (they count people as poor that we wouldn't) and lower rates of poverty. 

On Wisconsin
The way I read the situation is that Scott Walker is trying to squeeze public sector workers so that he can claim that he is getting the same level and quality of public services for less $.  Getting more for less might work in the short-run of his tenure as governor (which will be brief IMO), but labor markets are competitive and over time the best workers will retire or leave their public sector jobs for private sector positions that pay more and, with lower levels of compensation, fewer of our best and brightest will choose to go into education and public service.  In the short-run, workers that are not mobile or who don’t have transferable skill, such as teachers, will be hurt.  In the long run the state will be diminished.  This has already manifest itself to some extent at the UW - Madison, which has lost a large number of prominent faculty in recent years due to the low relative level of compensation. 

Maybe there are some places were collective bargaining for public sector employees doesn’t work, but it seems like it was working pretty well in Wisconsin.

Sex

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: sexondrugs]
    #14176047 - 03/24/11 02:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is no reason to believe that the totality of the state will be diminished by paying teachers and other public employees less money.  The majority of Wisconsinites will benefit.

By the way, did youknow that this bill doesn't bust the unions?  It's true.  Not a line it forbids organizing.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14176265 - 03/24/11 02:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Again, if you compare that data to the CPI inflation it's a substantial difference.
Here's a CPI calculator showing 1970 had a cpi at 38.8pts and the year 2008 had the CPI indexed at 215.303 that's over a 5x increase in cost of consumables. A similar interpretation is displayed on Wikipedia with both this graph:

and a table showing historical CPI from the invention of the USD, at 1970 it's value is .20 and in 2008 .04.

These people only do half the inflation if they only calculate for the inflation of the dolar value and not CPI.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinesexondrugs
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14176428 - 03/24/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no reason to believe that the totality of the state will be diminished by paying teachers and other public employees less money.  The majority of Wisconsinites will benefits




So you don't think think that there is going to be any sort of drain?  I think you are kidding yourself.  As I noted above the UW - Madison, one of the nations premier public universities, is not competitive on salaries and has already lost many prominent faculty.  The UW faculty are affected by the budget repair bill and will face a substantial pay cut.  Many of the most productive of them will leave for better paying jobs at other universities. 

The university is sort of a special case because (by-and-large) professors are pretty mobile and have transferable skills.  After all most of them moved to WI for a job in the first place.  For these reasons, the impacts are will be observed very quickly.  Teachers can't just pack up and move to greener pastures, so it will take some time, but I think it will be harder to decide that you want to be a teacher in WI relative to say 10-years ago.

Quote:

By the way, did you know that this bill doesn't bust the unions?  It's true.  Not a line it forbids organizing.




I know this, but it does (i) require an annual certification vote, (ii) forbids the state or municipalities from withholding dues, and (iii) dramatically limits the scope of union bargaining to wages below the CPI.  Walker could effectively say "I'll give state workers a wage increase equal to the CPI, but they are going to pay for 50% of their health insurance and 75% of their pension contributions."  This would result in a massive pay cut despite union bargaining.  You don't have to be a genius to realize this means an end to the unions.

If you read between the lines the sacrifices required by public sector workers in Wisconsin, particularly teachers, under the Walker budget will exceed what is mandated by the repair bill.  The concessions in the repair bill are only sufficient to close about 50% of the cut to local school aid contained in the budget; something else has to give.

Sex

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14176479 - 03/24/11 03:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't know about that.  I'd rather not be that fucking broke again.




Good point.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: sexondrugs]
    #14176511 - 03/24/11 03:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sexondrugs said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no reason to believe that the totality of the state will be diminished by paying teachers and other public employees less money.  The majority of Wisconsinites will benefits




So you don't think think that there is going to be any sort of drain?  I think you are kidding yourself.  As I noted above the UW - Madison, one of the nations premier public universities, is not competitive on salaries and has already lost many prominent faculty.  The UW faculty are affected by the budget repair bill and will face a substantial pay cut.  Many of the most productive of them will leave for better paying jobs at other universities.




Yes, I know all about UW faculty.  I've been following Ann Althouse's very excellent coverage of the commie greedheads mobbing the capital.  She is a UW law prof.  Who are they going to lose faculty to?  Nobody else has any money either.
Quote:

 

The university is sort of a special case because (by-and-large) professors are pretty mobile and have transferable skills.  After all most of them moved to WI for a job in the first place.  For these reasons, the impacts are will be observed very quickly.  Teachers can't just pack up and move to greener pastures, so it will take some time, but I think it will be harder to decide that you want to be a teacher in WI relative to say 10-years ago.




What are we talking about, teachers or professors?  No matter.  The fact that they are mobile specifically argues AGAINST any exigent circumstances allowing unionization at all.  Free negotiation by individual professors and no interference from unions on firings will improve Wisconsin's prospects regarding retaining the teachers the state wants to retain (NOT the ones the union wants them to retain).  Then there is compulsory union membership, which I find abhorrent in all applications.
Quote:



Quote:

By the way, did you know that this bill doesn't bust the unions?  It's true.  Not a line it forbids organizing.




I know this, but it does (i) require an annual certification vote, (ii) forbids the state or municipalities from withholding dues, and (iii) dramatically limits the scope of union bargaining to wages below the CPI.  Walker could effectively say "I'll give state workers a wage increase equal to the CPI, but they are going to pay for 50% of their health insurance and 75% of their pension contributions."  This would result in a massive pay cut despite union bargaining.  You don't have to be a genius to realize this means an end to the unions.




Or it will mean personal negotiations and market based pricing instead of collusive threats by union thugs.
Quote:



If you read between the lines the sacrifices required by public sector workers in Wisconsin, particularly teachers, under the Walker budget will exceed what is mandated by the repair bill.  The concessions in the repair bill are only sufficient to close about 50% of the cut to local school aid contained in the budget; something else has to give.




I don't read between the lines of bills.  And yes, the pay concessions demanded of the unions is most definitely inadequate.  Face it, revenue is down all over.  Down for governments and down for taxpayers.  It's time it went down for government employees.  There's no money in the till.
Quote:



Sex




Is fun.


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Offlinesexondrugs
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14176828 - 03/24/11 04:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said: Who are they going to lose faculty to?  Nobody else has any money either.




Many of the good UW faculty will go to other universities.  Many other top public university systems are in somewhat better shape because they have higher tuition models and private universities are in decent shape because they have much higher tuition models are well endowed. 

Quote:

What are we talking about, teachers or professors?  No matter.  The fact that they are mobile specifically argues AGAINST any exigent circumstances allowing unionization at all.  Free negotiation by individual professors and no interference from unions on firings will improve Wisconsin's prospects regarding retaining the teachers the state wants to retain (NOT the ones the union wants them to retain).  Then there is compulsory union membership, which I find abhorrent in all applications.




Professor = easy to gauge productivity, lots of mobility = competitive labor market

Teacher = lack of mobility because of state certifications, non-transferable skills, and difficulty gauging individual effectiveness=non-competitive labor market

UW – Madison faculty are not unionized because they don’t need to be.  They can move and find another job if they find things unfavorable.  It is also relatively easy to verify the productivity of a faculty member.  Because of state teacher certification requirements teachers are not mobile.  Moreover it is generally difficult to gauge their effectiveness.  For these reasons they need a union.

Quote:

And yes, the pay concessions demanded of the unions is most definitely inadequate.  Face it, revenue is down all over.  Down for governments and down for taxpayers.  It's time it went down for government employees.  There's no money in the till.




We could raise some more revenue and retain our excellent government, excellent schools, and excellent universities.  This would be my choice – to pay more and have what we have now.

Sex

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