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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
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What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do?
#14097067 - 03/10/11 10:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I've read the news and listened to the news on the radio and heard interviews with people for and against the law but not once have I heard or read exactly what this is all about.
If collective bargaining is simply a group of people working together to negotiate, how can that be made illegal? In other words, how can you make it a crime for people to coordinate themselves to work together to do something which would be legal if they each did it as individuals?
This seems to me to be a completely un-American approach, so it made me think that the law must be more nuanced. Perhaps it forbids the government departments from negotiating with groups, only individuals? Or perhaps it forbids those departments from negotiating at all, just setting pay and benefits and that's the end of it?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom] 2
#14097652 - 03/10/11 12:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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to answer your question about what the new law in WI will do ..it will at the very least turn the country into a 3rd world sweatshop banana republic.. if not a hard-core dictatorship that would make its WW2-era precursors look like model democracies...if theres a silver lining..its that ppl wont laugh at you when you talk about "fascism" anymore...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
#14097706 - 03/10/11 12:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: So I've read the news and listened to the news on the radio and heard interviews with people for and against the law but not once have I heard or read exactly what this is all about.
Why not? Google can be very useful.Quote:
If collective bargaining is simply a group of people working together to negotiate, how can that be made illegal? In other words, how can you make it a crime for people to coordinate themselves to work together to do something which would be legal if they each did it as individuals?
Well the Sherman Anti trust act comes to mind but I don't really think that is relevant to this. The government can just refuse to recognize the union, post job offers and interview candidates who then can negotiate for themselves their own deal. Then there is the idea of compulsory union dues. That you can certainly make illegal as it is coercion. Then there is the matter of making strikes illegal. Ask Flight Controllers about that beauty. Even FDR recognized the threat involved in public sector unionization for precisely that reason.Quote:
This seems to me to be a completely un-American approach, so it made me think that the law must be more nuanced. Perhaps it forbids the government departments from negotiating with groups, only individuals? Or perhaps it forbids those departments from negotiating at all, just setting pay and benefits and that's the end of it?
The law does several things. It relieves the employer of the obligation to automatically deduct and hand over union dues from paychecks. It requires that the union membership vote each year to remain in a union and it removes certain elements of compensation from collective bargaining. Contrary to the hyperventilating nitwits it does not bust or make illegal a union. It restores the freedom to union members. THAT is very American, a nation founded on the notion of individual freedom and not servitude to a Kollektif.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
#14097715 - 03/10/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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collective bargaining is a childish means of holding hostage an employer and demanding that they be given the right to work regardless of competency, work ethic or dedication
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14097716 - 03/10/11 12:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: to answer your question about what the new law in WI will do ..it will at the very least turn the country into a 3rd world sweatshop banana republic.. if not a hard-core dictatorship that would make its WW2-era precursors look like model democracies...if theres a silver lining..its that ppl wont laugh at you when you talk about "fascism" anymore...
This would be an example of some of the hyperventilating I was referencing. What could be more fascist than compelling people to join and pay for extra-governmental crap in order to pursue their chosen careers?
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BrenExplode



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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14097824 - 03/10/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's basically happening in Michigan too, and that's just where I happen to live. Woohoo Rick Snyder! Kill our freedoms under our noses! I'm waiting for Revofev to happen any day now here, in which I will enthusiastically play my part in.
http://blog.aflcio.org/2011/03/09/michigan-republicans-use-budget-crisis-to-make-outrageous-assault-on-democracy/
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There've been times when I wander, and times when I don't. Concepts I'll ponder, and concepts I won't ever see. God isn't one of these, former or latter. Which did you think I meant? It doesn't matter to me.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: BrenExplode]
#14097862 - 03/10/11 01:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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the MI law will allow the governor to forcibly remove elected officials and replace them with his cronies.. even zappa would be hard-pressed to argue thats not dictatorial...
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14097892 - 03/10/11 01:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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> even zappa would be hard-pressed to argue thats not dictatorial...
That is me, not Zappa. You are mixing up your fascist corporate shills.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14097921 - 03/10/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: the MI law will allow the governor to forcibly remove elected officials and replace them with his cronies.. even zappa would be hard-pressed to argue thats not dictatorial...
And I wouldn't argue in favor of that but it isn't what's happening. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billanalysis/House/htm/2011-HLA-4214-3.htm
Quote:
House Bill 4214 would repeal Public Act 72 of 1990--the existing Local Government Fiscal Responsibility Act. The new act would have similar provisions to PA 72, enabling a state review and intervention, but it would increase the power and authority of the appointed emergency financial manager, changing the appointee's title to emergency manager to indicate the expansion of that authority beyond financial matters. Among the proposed legislation's provisions that differ from the existing law, the new act would:
· List 18 explicit events that would trigger a financial review by the state (four of these are new, seven are in PA 72 but would be significantly changed, and four are in PA 72 but would be slightly modified.
· Include the director of the Department of Technology, Management, and Budget on the four-member review team (replacing the auditor general), and allow the governor to appoint more members to the team.
· Make explicit the differences between the municipal government and the school district review and intervention processes.
· Make explicit the parameters of the review team's evaluation (including 12 review criteria, six of which are new, and one that is in PA 72 but would be significantly changed).
· Allow the review team's evaluation report to be compiled by a firm (rather than an individual).
· Explicitly define the terms "financial stress" and "financial emergency."
· Allow for appointment of emergency managers by the state treasurer or state school superintendent after a financial emergency is declared by the governor (currently the emergency manager is appointed by a local emergency financial assistance loan board).
· Allow the state treasurer and state school superintendent to declare that a local government is in receivership, as they appoint an emergency manager. (Note: the bill does not define "receivership"; according to the CRC report, under federal law "receivership" is a form of corporate bankruptcy in which the court appoints a receiver to run the company….under municipal bankruptcy, no receiver is appointed. Instead the local government develops a plan for adjusting its debts and the court approves or disapproves that plan.")
· Specify that an emergency manager would be chosen on the basis of competence; need not be a resident of the local government; may be an individual or firm; and would serve at the pleasure of the state treasurer, with the concurrence of the state school superintendent if the local government is a school district. (Currently the emergency manager cannot be a firm). If the emergency manager were a firm, then a spokesperson would have to be employed by the firm to serve as the point of contact for the public.
· Require that an emergency manager (or at least one person within the firm if the emergency manager is a firm) have attained a degree in accounting, business, public administration, or a related field from an accredited institution and have a minimum of five years' experience in local or state budgetary or fiscal management.
· Explicitly identify an emergency manager's extensive power and authority by listing 32 actions a manager may take, 16 of which are new, two of which are in PA 72 but would be significantly modified, and seven of which are in PA 72 but would be slightly modified.
· Grant an appointed emergency manager the authority to abrogate existing labor contracts (currently the emergency financial manager may renegotiate contracts or enter into binding arbitration).
· Provide an explicit exit strategy to enable formerly struggling local governments to emerge from financial emergency status during which time local officials are prohibited from revising the emergency manager's two-year budget, labor contracts, or ordinances.
· Suspend collective bargaining for up to five years in local governments placed in receivership.
· A related bill (House Bill 4246) would allow collective bargaining agreements to be rejected, modified, or terminated under the Local Government and School District Fiscal Accountability Act.
Not for nothing but you seem to be supporting retarded local government officials against a larger, seemingly more responsible entity but have no problem with the federal government running roughshod over states' rights.
My take on this? Fuck the whole town. Let them rot. They blew it, screw 'em. No rescue, no takeover.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: BrenExplode]
#14098241 - 03/10/11 02:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrenExplode said: It's basically happening in Michigan too, and that's just where I happen to live. Woohoo Rick Snyder! Kill our freedoms under our noses!
no one is saying you cant be in a union, you're still free to do it but that doesnt mean you have a right to a job
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14098257 - 03/10/11 02:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Indeed. The taxpayers/voters have the right to tell you to go fuck yourself.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14098484 - 03/10/11 02:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Indeed. The taxpayers/voters have the right to tell you to go fuck yourself.
I'm always amazed at how the government tries to limit the bullshit that it has to put up with, but is more than willing to force private employers to deal with the pain. If unions are harmful to the government, then they are harmful to private business as well. I have nothing against unions being formed, but I don't believe they should have any protections (beyond protecting an employees right to voluntarily be in a union). If an employer wishes to fire every single person that strikes, so be it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
#14098508 - 03/10/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Indeed. The taxpayers/voters have the right to tell you to go fuck yourself.
I'm always amazed at how the government tries to limit the bullshit that it has to put up with, but is more than willing to force private employers to deal with the pain. If unions are harmful to the government, then they are harmful to private business as well. I have nothing against unions being formed, but I don't believe they should have any protections (beyond protecting an employees right to voluntarily be in a union). If an employer wishes to fire every single person that strikes, so be it.
I always did.
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14103075 - 03/11/11 09:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the difference is that unions or any group have the right to come together to negotiate terms, with their employers, but it becomes morally and fiscally wrong when a group has legal power to press their views over their employer. It is one thing to negotiate, another to start litigation.
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libertarian23
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Rebirtha]
#14104053 - 03/11/11 01:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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okay its been along while since i've posted but just stopped back gettin ready to do another grow...anyways nice to see ya zappa...so being an anarcho capitalist i must say that voluntary association of people coming together to make change in their workplace is something that i truly hold up as a good thing... people should be able to unionize and unions have done many good things...now my problem comes from this standpoint...i believe there should be no government or politicians therefore there should be no public sector employees and therefore no public sector unions... i was reading an interview from the 70s between murrray rothbard and some journalist and they were discussing on whether we as anarchists should participate in voting at all seeing as we disagree with the idea of government and some would consider this surrendering our values....murray rothbard disagreed saying that for lack of eliminating the state all at once we need to slowly chizel away at it(i paraphrased here) so how i feel about taking away collective bargaining rights in the public sector is that scott walker is doing a good thing in my view because it ties the politicians from being able to buy this large group of votes at our expense for their power... private sector unionism is fine with me so long as it isn't forced and isn't a protection racket(meaning if the union doesn't agree and the business owner can find other workers they're sol)...we need to be looking at other ways of tying the hands of interest groups from buying our polit bureau off...and keep chiseling away at all government...sorry if this was a little incoherent didn't get much sleep last night
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: libertarian23]
#14104071 - 03/11/11 01:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi pal. How does an anarcho-capitalist support Kompulsory Kollektivism? Or any Kollektivism, for that matter?
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communeart


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14104114 - 03/11/11 01:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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how do you fight organized people willing to slaughter not just you and your whole family, but your whole race/religion/nation for otherworldly historical mistakes of your ancestors?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: communeart]
#14104250 - 03/11/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not the anarchist. Don't ask me.
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libertarian23
strangeranger
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14104580 - 03/11/11 03:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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i support the ideal of private sector unions because of the doctrine of voluntarism...if a group of employees willingly join together to address contracts with their employers its really none of my business...and if that employer chooses to fire them all its really none of my business...if they think they are worth more than he can or is willing to pay they should find an employer that is willing to pay them what they want...the employer can make a contract with either a single employee or the group as a whole...using government to force the end of all unions is contrary to the idea of freedom of associatio
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jimbotron
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: libertarian23]
#14104736 - 03/11/11 04:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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It intends to fuck over all public employees except for policemen and firefighters.
Why are they excepted? Fuck you, that's why. Oh, and because they were the only unions who gave most of their money to Walker.
Kinda like that union->politician->union feedback loop I keep seeing people blather about, except in this case it's a Republican making sure his personal union gravy train remains unbroken. Why?
Again, fuck you, that's why.
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