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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14154908 - 03/20/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
have you ever met a social worker or doctor?
I don't know how it is in the US but few do either of those professions in canada for the money... especially social work. Usually much more well paying professions take much less schooling and are less stressful.




You must at least concede that if we eliminated all doctors and social workers who weren't in it for money that there would be fewer doctors and social workers?  How would that be a benefit to society?




Doctors maybe, I've never met one that was in it for the money, but I can believe it as a possibility, mostly doctors here who are like that leave to the US anyway so our numbers would be mostly unchanged. However, social workers? Have you ever met a single social worker? IME the majority of them if not all are in it for personal reasons. The pay is usually shit, nobody gets into it for the money (at least in canada), where have you got this idea from?

Further you are discounting that money is not always the only factor in setting someone's carer someone can be motivated by money as well as interest or altruism. In fact that would be requisite for social work since it pays shit wages. Both those carers on a dollar value are lower paying than some alternatives which require less education time/cost.




I never said it was the only factor, but it is a factor for everyone except the independently wealthy.  Remove money as a motivating factor for an activity while keeping everything else equal and you've reduced the number of people performing that task.  It's pretty simple. 

Is medical school free in Canada?


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14155894 - 03/20/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Way cheaper than the US, but no. However I really don't see what you or communeheart's point is here.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I dont understand this complaint...  The teachers still have a right to collectively demand a certain compensation package and collectively quit en mass if they do not receive that.  They still have this right, every worker does.

What exactly can they not do now that they could do before this bill?




If unions don't have a right to exist what right do companies or lobby/interest groups have to exist. These unions are not beggaring the state they are meeting the demands except the demands to disband their union. I don't see any reason states should leggislate away worker's rights to organise.

Further I don't see how dues deducted from payroll are any different than payed by the individual. Neither way is "wrong" but it does appear that trying to stop people from paying their dues by making them voluntary is an attempt to create additional unwanted friction in the workplace. I don't thinkit will be effective in whatever states were considdering it.

I agree with JohnnyConverse, not only is it difficult to organize collective action without a union but many of the serious problems like work safety or other work conditions cannot get addressed through individual or limited collective bargaining.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (03/20/11 08:20 PM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14155952 - 03/20/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it is wrong to force an employer to pay the dues out of the employee paycheck. This is basically performing a service for the employee. I doubt anyone would expect the employer to pay any other dues or bills for the employee.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14155955 - 03/20/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I dont believe they have lost the right to organize or unionize.  You are claiming that the law prohibits them from getting together and organizing?  Bullshit!  Every worker in the US has the right to do that.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14156072 - 03/20/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I think it is wrong to force an employer to pay the dues out of the employee paycheck. This is basically performing a service for the employee. I doubt anyone would expect the employer to pay any other dues or bills for the employee.



Yes haven't you heard of child support (in case of payment delinquency), or taxes. EI (unemployment) CPP (social security), banks will sometimes draw money from other accounts automatically sometimes in occasions of delinquent payments to mortgages/credit debt or whatnot. Hell some stores allow employees to buy the products with the cost deducted from their salaries. Tips in restaurants are often deducted and shared with restaurant staff.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I dont believe they have lost the right to organize or unionize.  You are claiming that the law prohibits them from getting together and organizing?  Bullshit!  Every worker in the US has the right to do that.



It depends where you are talking about. Some of this legislation is preventing people from organizing. In actuality current laws do not protect workers right to organize in the workplace. If you can't organize in a break room how are you supposed to organize organize? Have a staff party? Some of the legislation is attacking workers rights to fight for non-pay issues like worker safety and other work conditions.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14156109 - 03/20/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Way cheaper than the US, but no. However I really don't see what you or communeheart's point is here.





I don't know what communeart's point is either.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14156336 - 03/20/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

sure taxes and wage garnishment in some cases. I'm talking about your boy scout dues or electric bill. Your union dues fall more in line with boyscout dues than taxes.

The other thing I don't get about the bill is how they can force people to vote on whether they want to stay in the union once a year. I can't believe conservatives of all people would support that. What's next, they're going to force cubscouts to vote once a year whether they want to stay in, or AARP members, the NRA or the society velvet painting restoration?


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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14158055 - 03/21/11 06:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well, if I don't have the right to organize a strike, all I really have is the right to organize a mild attempt at price fixing. And while your employer can't always fire you DIRECTLY for organizing, in practicality in most "employment at will" states they can cut anyone at anytime - most of the exit procudures people thing are legal are actually just CYA in case of lawsuit, and in an E@W state they will risk a wrongful term. lawsuit to keep a union out


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14158081 - 03/21/11 06:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> If unions don't have a right to exist what right do companies or lobby/interest groups have to exist.

Personally, I have no problem at all with unions right to exist.  What I have a huge problem with is the protections that unions are given through legislation.  A union should not be able to force my  employees to join it in order to work for me.  If a union strikes, as an employer, I should be allowed to fire any employee that does not show up to work.


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14158305 - 03/21/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Some of this legislation is preventing people from organizing. In actuality current laws do not protect workers right to organize in the workplace. If you can't organize in a break room how are you supposed to organize organize? Have a staff party? Some of the legislation is attacking workers rights to fight for non-pay issues like worker safety and other work conditions.




Of course they shouldn't be organizing in the workplace... they are supposed to be working.  They do have the right to organize, on their own time and on their own dime.  Also, I do not believe they have lost the right to fight for other issues either.  Every body still has the right to advocate, donate, volunteer and vote for non-pay related issues like worker safety and other work conditions.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14158781 - 03/21/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
A union should not be able to force my  employees to join it in order to work for me.





I think this is illegal. Not sure but if you had a source that would be great.

What I think does happen is the union negotiates with the employer to only higher union employees, or to pay a fine for highering non union employees. Why a company would agree to this I have no idea.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14159054 - 03/21/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> I think this is illegal. Not sure but if you had a source that would be great.

http://www.nrtw.org/your-rights-3-minutes:
Quote:

No employee in the United States can legally be required to be a full-dues-paying, formal union member. But in many states, an employee can be forced to pay certain union dues or be fired from his or her job.




http://www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-philadelphia/right-to-work-pennsylvania-is-a-forced-unionism-state:
Quote:

As shown on the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation's website, Pennsylvania is not a Right to Work State. Private sector companies that have Unionized and public sector employees as a whole are forced to join a Union.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law:
Quote:

Right-to-work laws are statutes enforced in 15 U.S. states, mostly in the southern or western U.S., allowed under provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act, which prohibit agreements between labor unions and employers making membership or payment of union dues or fees a condition of employment, either before or after hiring.




> What I think does happen is the union negotiates with the employer to only hire union employees

I believe you are correct, but it boils down to the same thing... In order to work, I have to join the union.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14159229 - 03/21/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:


> What I think does happen is the union negotiates with the employer to only hire union employees

I believe you are correct, but it boils down to the same thing... In order to work, I have to join the union.






and i think that is the same with paying dues, the union negotiates with the employer to make paying union dues a condition of employment, then during the hiring process the employee agrees to pay union dues (even if not in the union) as part of the negotiation with the employer.

As much as the end result is ugly, it seems like fair negotiation. The employer has every right to refuse to accommodate the union's requests during negotiation. Why the employer would agree to this I don't know.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Freedom]
    #14159379 - 03/21/11 01:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And so it is now negotiated out.  And if they don't fucking like it they can call their Mommies.

You know how I treated unions?  I told them to fuck off.  Same thing I told community organizing shakedown artists.  My employees knew what those assholes were.  Just one step removed from a mafia protection racket.


--------------------


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14159446 - 03/21/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Seuss and freedom, both misunderstand. Employers can hire non-union employees (contractors) if it abides by the agreements that the union outlines. For example I used to work at a union mill where all the supervisor jobs were by contract and so was the janitorial duties (washrooms break rooms). As far as I know the only thing keeping employers from hiring people is their union agreements. Since all employees must pay-dues to be in the union and be in the union to remain employed under this framework there is no reason at all why the role of paying dues should not be done through payroll. Can you name a single practical reason why this should be so other than "the constitution" or some other vague bullshit?

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Some of this legislation is preventing people from organizing. In actuality current laws do not protect workers right to organize in the workplace. If you can't organize in a break room how are you supposed to organize organize? Have a staff party? Some of the legislation is attacking workers rights to fight for non-pay issues like worker safety and other work conditions.




Of course they shouldn't be organizing in the workplace... they are supposed to be working.  They do have the right to organize, on their own time and on their own dime.  Also, I do not believe they have lost the right to fight for other issues either.  Every body still has the right to advocate, donate, volunteer and vote for non-pay related issues like worker safety and other work conditions.




Nobody has to work in the break room (it's for breaks). Some of the legislation proposed by one state explicitly removes from workers the ability to negotiate for non-pay issues.

Advocating doesn't really do shit without a collective body to stand behind, but you already know this I assume.


Quote:

Seuss said:
Personally, I have no problem at all with unions right to exist.  What I have a huge problem with is the protections that unions are given through legislation.  A union should not be able to force my  employees to join it in order to work for me.  If a union strikes, as an employer, I should be allowed to fire any employee that does not show up to work.




You can trust me if you fired employees for striking, the consequences would probibly be much greater of a problem than the losses suffered from a strike. I don't think that this is at all practical as you claim. It's also illegal to commit suicide, wana complain that is unconstitutional?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14159611 - 03/21/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:


You can trust me if you fired employees for striking, the consequences would probibly be much greater of a problem than the losses suffered from a strike. I don't think that this is at all practical as you claim. It's also illegal to commit suicide, wana complain that is unconstitutional?




ORLY, tough guy?  Ask the Air Traffic Controllers about that.  Any one of my workers goes on strike he is fucking terminated.  With extreme prejudice.  No unemployment either.  Just a nice bootprint on his ass.

Being a union shop is suicidal in a free market.  That's why they have union goons.  Unions hurt everybody not in a union.


--------------------


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14159670 - 03/21/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
As far as I know the only thing keeping employers from hiring people is their union agreements. Since all employees must pay-dues to be in the union and be in the union to remain employed under this framework there is no reason at all why the role of paying dues should not be done through payroll. Can you name a single practical reason why this should be so other than "the constitution" or some other vague bullshit?







if paying the dues out of the paycheck is part of the negotiated agreement, thats fine. In fact a law preventing the employer from paying the union dues or boy scout dues or the employees electric bill would be unjust. If the employee or union can negotiate an agreement where the company pays their electric bill from their paycheck, thats fine.

A law requiring a company to do this is what I object to. It may be practical or impractical but it should be up to the company to decide, like I said it is a service that the company is doing for the employee, making it easier for them to pay their dues.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14160293 - 03/21/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You can trust me if you fired employees for striking, the consequences would probibly be much greater of a problem than the losses suffered from a strike. I don't think that this is at all practical as you claim. It's also illegal to commit suicide, wana complain that is unconstitutional?




I learned in engineering management that it is usually more profitable to shutdown a plant than to allow it to go union.  The instructor of the course was a retired VP from P&G with a lifetime of experience.

Quote:

Employers can hire non-union employees (contractors) if it abides by the agreements that the union outlines. For example I used to work at a union mill where all the supervisor jobs were by contract and so was the janitorial duties (washrooms break rooms). As far as I know the only thing keeping employers from hiring people is their union agreements.




Perhaps things work differently in where you live.  In the US, the laws vary from state to state.  There were no "right to work" laws where I grew up.  Unions could force an employer to only be allowed to hire union labor through threat of strike.  The same employer was unable to terminate striking employees because they were protected by law.  The playing field is far from fair in this situation.


--------------------
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: Seuss]
    #14160453 - 03/21/11 05:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The same employer was unable to terminate striking employees because they were protected by law.  The playing field is far from fair in this situation.




Wouldn't that just be contract law protecting the unions in that case?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What exactly is collective bargaining, what exactly does the proposed law in WI intend to do? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14160740 - 03/21/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> Wouldn't that just be contract law protecting the unions in that case?

Nope. The National Labor Relations Act (NRLA) protects employees from an employer "threatening, disciplining, or firing employees involved in protected concerted activities or in union activities."


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