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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: dynomite] 2
#14092656 - 03/09/11 01:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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dynomite writes:
that's fucking bullshit, we went to war with iraq for nobody's interests but our own(and maybe israels), you fucking cunt
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: despisedicon]
#14092657 - 03/09/11 01:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The jews gambled as well and won.... for now. When you mean most nations, which one are you talking about? saudi arabia is very antisemitic, and so are many other arab nation who consistently vote against israel , turkey is a another one coming to oppose israel as well as Iran with chavez and leftist around the world supporting palestine.
When i was saying that fighting israel was fighting the united states and their own respective corrupt government i was talking about the government before the wave of revolutions taking place now. see how miserably fragile they all were? You like democracy don't you? have you ever asked the people of morroco whether they prefer the jews who want to build a temple over one of their holy sites or their muslim brothers of palestine first? you may have gotten the first as an answer but you probably asked the monarchy.
i sometime wonder if france did not have a bad muslim population just how badly anti-zionist that country would be. that is without immigration and the muslims being more pious and believers than themself.
As for the political tool you have to ask yourself what exactly represents israel,palestine,the palestinian people etc for you. what are your political goals? You forget the blockade, the lack of water, the people who got their bone broken by stone, the people who got their bone broken by stones, the people who got their bones broken by stones and their little children who lost their legs.
the kurds don't have their little children losing their legs and bluenazi troopers pointing guns at grandmothers. they are a terrorist faction operating in a very different setting. Occupation is not a joke you are probably a fucking children you would cry like a bitch under occupation have your nation ever been occupied in the last 200 years?
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despisedicon
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Phred]
#14092662 - 03/09/11 01:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Grav]
#14092673 - 03/09/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Grav said: zionist pro-israel think-tanks are basically writing the book on middle-east occupation, and we find the american media(and thus americans) constantly parroting the same exact narrative, that muslim nations are terrorist, and America must take action against them.
israel has a history of framing muslims through false-flags(lavon affair, USS Liberty, al-queda impersonations) and using false intelligence to keep this narrative going. and also operating large spy-rings within the U.S. going largely unchecked. FOX recently did a segment specifically on this subject and it was pulled off the air. why?
israel also has a significant amount of influence over U.S. government. take a look at some of the top members of our recent presidential administrations, (and the foreign policy decisions made by those admins) you would be quite willfully ignorant to not see they are acting with significant interest in israel.
i don't really have a stance on if israel should exist or not or whose land it rightfully belongs to, i just think America should cease military aid to israel immediately, as it doesn't benefit us in any way and is directly contributing to death and destruction and violent occupation. i think we have enough blood on our hands fighting israel's enemies.
Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused though: what does this have to do with the question? If we accept that Israel has a signifigant influence on America, what does that have to do with anything?
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p.s. the title of this thread is pretty funny when you look at the endless stream of threads over muslim nations and what should be done about them.
Please explain this. What does an endless sream of threads regarding muslim nations have to do with the title of my thread?
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this is just my opinion but i think it goes to show the influence on how we generally think about geopolitics. if it's about iran, iraq, islam, al-queda, etc. the content and claims therein is self-evident, met with very little or no investigation. however if it's about Israel it is met with skepticism. "what about israel? what do you mean? prove it!"
What are you speaking of here, percisely?
Again, I'm amazed people are so quick to presume bias. Personally I don't really care if Israel exists or not and I think its a shame the UN didn't do more to require they don't discriminate against people on the basis of religion and so forth, but generally find them much more reasonable and decent then the states typically at odds with them. I also don't hear them making crazy speeches about getting rid of other nations, and other overtly beligerant foreign policy stances.
What I do care about is the frequent wild claims of zionism and israel being bad, but very little in the way of any actual reason for such being given. How exactly is the existance of the state a problem? It seems a lot of people just parrot this, but I'm wondering why. All I can figure out is that some believe a certain race has the right to exclude and subjugate, kill, other races in an area. Other than this nonsense, I don't see any justification being very apparent.
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amilibertine
It’s good to be back!



Registered: 06/10/09
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14092689 - 03/09/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: I also don't hear them making crazy speeches about getting rid of other nations, and other overtly beligerant foreign policy stances.
You're not looking in the right places then. The Israeli government constantly calls for the destruction of it's neighbors (and they have invaded or bombed nearly every one of their border countries). The also have laws that make non-jews second class citizens.
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14092716 - 03/09/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Johnm , you and i don't get the same sources, this is very simple you get mainstream news, but you know what, some general of israel talked about pointing nuclear warheads on europe and another person of the israeli government once threatened an holocaust of bombs in gaza .
http://www.voltairenet.org/article164432.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1580339/Israeli-minister-vows-Palestinian-holocaust.html
now most jewish institutions often court our society and our people to be wary of words and the actions that they may lead to but i do believe we should listen to them as well and look up the radicalism of their words, it shows willingness and commitment to do violence if threatened of death. Israel is a deeply religious enterprise should be scared of them having atomic bombs, iran and israel are 2 state which existence is based on religion and they both despise each other.
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communeart


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
#14092810 - 03/09/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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The occupation of Israel is simply a crusader's wet dream come true.
It plainly obvious that it was orchestrated and by the true aggressors - the evolution of the esoteric groups deriving the crusaders and other such occult factions.
True, the oligarchial new world order style elite is a mishmash of different religion but however strictly adhering to a multi-religious worldwide religious point of view using different symbols of spirituality from every nation and cultural movements. the freemasons would be a good basis of an organisation with a similar structure,symbolism etc.
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True aggressors? That would be humanity right? Take a look at world history and you will notice that the true aggressor nations can change with the ups and downs of getting and losing power.
I may be somewhat unique here. I'm not on any side. I'm not on America's side and I'm not on their enemies side. I just observe like an alien watching the machinations of some bizarre acting animal species. Why do I feel this way? Because I have come to believe that everything will be this way no matter what I believe or what I would prefer.
look the people who are defending palestine and how religious they are, then look at the one defending israel and see how religious they are. both side use strong religious argument and god is on the side palestine.
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despisedicon
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
#14092825 - 03/09/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've always wanted to post like Seuss and I'm stealing his posting style without the intellect because I'm too lazy at the moment to cut and paste.
>The jews gambled as well and won.... for now.
Wouldn't you rather have peace? And how can you have the land of monotheism without a Jewish state?
>When you mean most nations, which one are you talking about? The ones that went to war with Israel and entered into treaties or don't openly support attacking them. Voting against the settlements is a completely different matter. I never commented on that.
>have you ever asked the people of morroco whether they prefer the jews who want to build a temple over one of their holy sites or their muslim brothers of palestine first? you may have gotten the first as an answer but you probably asked the monarchy.
Say what now? Never mind don't answer that.
>what are your political goals?
One day I hope to aspire to become a Communist-Anarchist like yourself and reach the peak of political thought. By the way isn't Communist-Anarchist a misnomer of some sort? Oh I get it Chomsky is the rage nowadays. Never mind. I have no political goals if peace is a goal I would choose that. Both sides have their faults and I don't support any side.
>You forget the blockade, the lack of water, the people who got their bone broken by stone, the people who got their bone broken by stones, the people who got their bones broken by stones and their little children who lost their legs.
Would you be so kind to point that scope at the other side and see their wrongdoings?
>Occupation is not a joke
Two state solution? Give back some of the occupied terrorities. Maybe cut into an Arab states since they have so much more land than the Jews.
>you are probably a fucking children you would cry like a bitch under occupation have your nation ever been occupied in the last 200 years?
I live in the United States of America, the only country in the world that citizens openly prepare and fantasize about an invasion so go right ahead and make our day. We all have guns, even the grandmothers and grandfathers not to mention the world's biggest military tools in the history of mankind.
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Grav


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14092941 - 03/09/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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Grav said: zionist pro-israel think-tanks are basically writing the book on middle-east occupation, and we find the american media(and thus americans) constantly parroting the same exact narrative, that muslim nations are terrorist, and America must take action against them.
israel has a history of framing muslims through false-flags(lavon affair, USS Liberty, al-queda impersonations) and using false intelligence to keep this narrative going. and also operating large spy-rings within the U.S. going largely unchecked. FOX recently did a segment specifically on this subject and it was pulled off the air. why?
israel also has a significant amount of influence over U.S. government. take a look at some of the top members of our recent presidential administrations, (and the foreign policy decisions made by those admins) you would be quite willfully ignorant to not see they are acting with significant interest in israel.
i don't really have a stance on if israel should exist or not or whose land it rightfully belongs to, i just think America should cease military aid to israel immediately, as it doesn't benefit us in any way and is directly contributing to death and destruction and violent occupation. i think we have enough blood on our hands fighting israel's enemies.
Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused though: what does this have to do with the question? If we accept that Israel has a signifigant influence on America, what does that have to do with anything?
you don't think it's any of an american's business what nations are influencing his government? can't help you with that one...
and zionism isn't confined to israel. it is alive and well in the U.S. government, hence why the U.S. military is being used to wage war on Israel's enemies, and why we are sending billions of $$ for israel to murder and destroy.
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p.s. the title of this thread is pretty funny when you look at the endless stream of threads over muslim nations and what should be done about them.
Please explain this. What does an endless sream of threads regarding muslim nations have to do with the title of my thread?
that's just my observation. i'm making a comparison between your thread and others concerning the middle-eastern region. don't worry about it.
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this is just my opinion but i think it goes to show the influence on how we generally think about geopolitics. if it's about iran, iraq, islam, al-queda, etc. the content and claims therein is self-evident, met with very little or no investigation. however if it's about Israel it is met with skepticism. "what about israel? what do you mean? prove it!"
What are you speaking of here, percisely?
i'm talking about the multitude of threads about iran or iraq or afghanistan or wherever harboring terrorists or getting ready to send off nukes, or otherwise posing a dangerous threat to America with no verification, and based on intelligence sources that have been proven faulty numerous times. people still presume that we are somehow morally justified by occupying iraq and afghanistan, drone bombing pakistan, etc. with no proof of anything, it's just a given because western zionist influenced media tells us so. contrast that with criticism of israel and it brings out all the skeptics demanding outstanding proof and verification of any claims.
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Again, I'm amazed people are so quick to presume bias. Personally I don't really care if Israel exists or not and I think its a shame the UN didn't do more to require they don't discriminate against people on the basis of religion and so forth, but generally find them much more reasonable and decent then the states typically at odds with them. I also don't hear them making crazy speeches about getting rid of other nations, and other overtly beligerant foreign policy stances.
it sounds like you are limiting your sources of information.
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What I do care about is the frequent wild claims of zionism and israel being bad, but very little in the way of any actual reason for such being given. How exactly is the existance of the state a problem? It seems a lot of people just parrot this, but I'm wondering why. All I can figure out is that some believe a certain race has the right to exclude and subjugate, kill, other races in an area. Other than this nonsense, I don't see any justification being very apparent.
well for starters they are murdering people, destroying homes, moving people into racial camps, using kids as human shields, killing others trying to send aid. i don't know, something seems kinda wrong about that.
some choose to stay ignorant of this or call it self-defense laughably. it is interesting if not disgusting watching people dance around this or claim israel is morally justified in murdering people because they somehow 'won' that land in the past.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: amilibertine]
#14092989 - 03/09/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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amilibertine said:
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johnm214 said: I also don't hear them making crazy speeches about getting rid of other nations, and other overtly beligerant foreign policy stances.
You're not looking in the right places then. The Israeli government constantly calls for the destruction of it's neighbors (and they have invaded or bombed nearly every one of their border countries). The also have laws that make non-jews second class citizens.
Well I'm sure you will be able to provide us all with several examples of the the Israeli government calling for the destruction of it's neighboring states. Did you know that there are Arabs and Muslims in the Knesset? True story, brah.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14093084 - 03/09/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Grav said: you don't think it's any of an american's business what nations are influencing his government? can't help you with that one...
Huh? Where did I say or support the conclusion that it isn't any of an American's buisness what nations are influencing his government?
I don't know what your talking about, and again ask what your reply had to do with the topic.
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Grav said:]and zionism isn't confined to israel. it is alive and well in the U.S. government, hence why the U.S. military is being used to wage war on Israel's enemies, and why we are sending billions of $$ for israel to murder and destroy.
What does Zionism being "alive and well" in the US government have to do with anything? You keep making these statements but fail to state the relevance. I'm interested in whether the existance of the state is wrong or an injustice and whether zionism is wrong or an injustice. Your bare assertions about Zionism being present in the US and that people care who's influencing their government seem pretty irrelevant.
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Grav said: i'm talking about the multitude of threads about iran or iraq or afghanistan or wherever harboring terrorists or getting ready to send off nukes, or otherwise posing a dangerous threat to America with no verification, and based on intelligence sources that have been proven faulty numerous times. people still presume that we are somehow morally justified by occupying iraq and afghanistan, drone bombing pakistan, etc. with no proof of anything, it's just a given because western zionist influenced media tells us so. contrast that with criticism of israel and it brings out all the skeptics demanding outstanding proof and verification of any claims.
What does any of this have to do with anything? You're one of the foremost Israel /Zionist criticizers on this board and when the topic directly concerns this issue you spend your time talking about all this other crap. I have no idea why.
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Grav said:it sounds like you are limiting your sources of information.
Again with the bare conclusions. Please explain how my statement was ignorant.
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zappaisgod said:
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amilibertine said:
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johnm214 said: I also don't hear them making crazy speeches about getting rid of other nations, and other overtly beligerant foreign policy stances.
You're not looking in the right places then. The Israeli government constantly calls for the destruction of it's neighbors (and they have invaded or bombed nearly every one of their border countries). The also have laws that make non-jews second class citizens.
Well I'm sure you will be able to provide us all with several examples of the the Israeli government calling for the destruction of it's neighboring states. Did you know that there are Arabs and Muslims in the Knesset? True story, brah.
Yeah, I'd like to hear this as well, rather than hear yet more bare conclusions that I'm brainwashed by western media and all this other nonsense.
Its somewhat revelatory that when the topic directly concerns this issue, I'm not hearing anything but these conclusory statements for why Israel should exist, is bad, or why Zionism is wrong or an affront to anyone's rights.
This certainly doesn't suggest these opponents have much in the way of a reasoned argument for their positions, and certainly doesn't go very far towards supporting their positions.
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Grav


Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14093110 - 03/09/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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john read the damn title of your thread
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Grav]
#14093138 - 03/09/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have. I also wrote it. Now explain yourself and what all this crap has to do with anything.
How does my thread's title suppose it is none of an American's buisness whether their are zionists in his government?
This seems to be nothing more than more nonsense presuppositions as to my motives and other crap that has nothing to do with the question at issue. Asking a question does not presuppose the belief in a contrary position to that asked, and you've certainly not shown the existance of any presumptions underlying the debate here or the questions asked.
Of course, your post isn't even an argument, so I must presume what you mean, but none of the possible answers make any sense.
Are you going to answer the question or not? If not, you can stop with all this irrelevant nonsense about media bias, thread titles, and whether or not zionists exist in american government (a position nobody has debated yet you still argue, inexplicably).
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communeart


Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14093281 - 03/09/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've always wanted to post like Seuss and I'm stealing his posting style without the intellect because I'm too lazy at the moment to cut and paste.
>The jews gambled as well and won.... for now.
Wouldn't you rather have peace? And how can you have the land of monotheism without a Jewish state?
>When you mean most nations, which one are you talking about? The ones that went to war with Israel and entered into treaties or don't openly support attacking them. Voting against the settlements is a completely different matter. I never commented on that.
>have you ever asked the people of morroco whether they prefer the jews who want to build a temple over one of their holy sites or their muslim brothers of palestine first? you may have gotten the first as an answer but you probably asked the monarchy.
Say what now? Never mind don't answer that.
>what are your political goals?
One day I hope to aspire to become a Communist-Anarchist like yourself and reach the peak of political thought. By the way isn't Communist-Anarchist a misnomer of some sort? Oh I get it Chomsky is the rage nowadays. Never mind. I have no political goals if peace is a goal I would choose that. Both sides have their faults and I don't support any side.
>You forget the blockade, the lack of water, the people who got their bone broken by stone, the people who got their bone broken by stones, the people who got their bones broken by stones and their little children who lost their legs.
Would you be so kind to point that scope at the other side and see their wrongdoings?
>Occupation is not a joke
Two state solution? Give back some of the occupied terrorities. Maybe cut into an Arab states since they have so much more land than the Jews.
>you are probably a fucking children you would cry like a bitch under occupation have your nation ever been occupied in the last 200 years?
I live in the United States of America, the only country in the world that citizens openly prepare and fantasize about an invasion so go right ahead and make our day. We all have guns, even the grandmothers and grandfathers not to mention the world's biggest military tools in the history of mankind.
There will be no peace with the jewish imperialist state, sometime you need to actually read past the official declaration of politicians, something that you do very well with your own politicians.
why did you ignore my second paragraph? it was exactly my whole answer to all of your question, i will, just like a children, hold your hand and explain closely, like if you were retarded for example. Ask yourself if the people of any of those countries in the following image except one had a referendum on whether they wanted israelis to pack their shit up and leave, what side would win.

oh , and to show you how ethnic nationalism is not a joke, let me show you something about the history of my country.


I am not a communist-anarchist i am a Third position National-bolshevik , i support the front national of france and the Iranian revolution.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
#14094242 - 03/09/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said:
Quote:
I've always wanted to post like Seuss and I'm stealing his posting style without the intellect because I'm too lazy at the moment to cut and paste.
>The jews gambled as well and won.... for now.
Wouldn't you rather have peace? And how can you have the land of monotheism without a Jewish state?
>When you mean most nations, which one are you talking about? The ones that went to war with Israel and entered into treaties or don't openly support attacking them. Voting against the settlements is a completely different matter. I never commented on that.
>have you ever asked the people of morroco whether they prefer the jews who want to build a temple over one of their holy sites or their muslim brothers of palestine first? you may have gotten the first as an answer but you probably asked the monarchy.
Say what now? Never mind don't answer that.
>what are your political goals?
One day I hope to aspire to become a Communist-Anarchist like yourself and reach the peak of political thought. By the way isn't Communist-Anarchist a misnomer of some sort? Oh I get it Chomsky is the rage nowadays. Never mind. I have no political goals if peace is a goal I would choose that. Both sides have their faults and I don't support any side.
>You forget the blockade, the lack of water, the people who got their bone broken by stone, the people who got their bone broken by stones, the people who got their bones broken by stones and their little children who lost their legs.
Would you be so kind to point that scope at the other side and see their wrongdoings?
>Occupation is not a joke
Two state solution? Give back some of the occupied terrorities. Maybe cut into an Arab states since they have so much more land than the Jews.
>you are probably a fucking children you would cry like a bitch under occupation have your nation ever been occupied in the last 200 years?
I live in the United States of America, the only country in the world that citizens openly prepare and fantasize about an invasion so go right ahead and make our day. We all have guns, even the grandmothers and grandfathers not to mention the world's biggest military tools in the history of mankind.
There will be no peace with the jewish imperialist state, sometime you need to actually read past the official declaration of politicians, something that you do very well with your own politicians.
why did you ignore my second paragraph? it was exactly my whole answer to all of your question, i will, just like a children, hold your hand and explain closely, like if you were retarded for example. Ask yourself if the people of any of those countries in the following image except one had a referendum on whether they wanted israelis to pack their shit up and leave, what side would win.

oh , and to show you how ethnic nationalism is not a joke, let me show you something about the history of my country.


I am not a communist-anarchist i am a Third position National-bolshevik , i support the front national of france and the Iranian revolution.
Quoted for posterity.
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ScavengerType


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14096166 - 03/10/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Johnm, I think that some of the reasons your OP is called biased are for one the topic which is rife with bias. You should never ask someone is something they have an opinion on is any of their buisness and not expect to sound antagonistic. Further, your OP as well as your following posts seem to suggest that the issue here is between the existence of the occupation vs the existence of the state of Israel. To me your post seemed profoundly naive of the issues, though you probibly post this way often to try to ask questions from a (american media informed) neutral perspective. This is what prompted my question as to weather or not you were really naive of the aggressions of the Israeli state. To someone else this may have looked antagonistic or biased. I can see why you are confused by accusations of bias, but your questions do seem to contain somewhat loaded language.
However the assumption that the 2 options are the current system (that will erase Palestine fully in a matter of a single or a few decades) and the annihilation is one that is fully loaded. Why do you think this is the dichotomy of choices here?
There is rhetorical support for the annihilation of Israel by some political leaders but further inspection would show that this is largely political posturing. In fact large sectors like Saudi Arabia and Iran use weapons aid to meet their own political ends. However there is also a large variety of support for the peaceful ambitions for aid and much of the Arab world wants a two state solution. In fact in the last peace-talks the Hamass papers that were leaked showed that not only was the so-called extremist Hamass willing to end all hostilities but was willing to give up all settlements under dispute to the Israelis in exchange for peace, that doesn't sound like calling for death to Israel. Similarly the Arab League has backed many proposals for a two state solution. Most western intellectuals like Noam Chomsky or Norman Finkelstein endorse a two state solution and the only radical thing they propose is that Israel stop the settlements, stop the violence and enter normalized relations with a Palestinian government.
I would like to address more but I have limited time, one question I wanted to pose to others here who have denied that a Palestinian state ever existed is what do they think happened in the years after the Balfour declaration from 1920-1947 in what was known as Palestine. This is 27 years where Israeli terrorism against the native Arabs was being denounced and the Bittish were setting up a colonial state in the region. During this time there was 2 state bodies formed for Palestine and Trans-Jourdan here is a map from Wikipedia and a stamp showing the existence and linguistic nature of the region at the time.
  So the notion that there was no such thing as Palestine is fucking stupid, in fact it clearly was there and it encompassed all of present day Israel. The Balfor declaration clearly drew them to be separate states. Where, may I ask, did people hear there never was a nation called Palestine?
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: ScavengerType]
#14096263 - 03/10/11 02:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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However the assumption that the 2 options are the current system (that will erase Palestine fully in a matter of a single or a few decades) and the annihilation is one that is fully loaded. Why do you think this is the dichotomy of choices here?
Where did I suppose this dichotomy? The entirety of your posts here have seemed to imagine, without so much as even a rudimentary explanation, some presuppositions on my part that you've been gradually revealing in serial. While suspensful to be sure, none of these revelations have been shown to have anything to do with my post- you've simply declared them and proceeded on.
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Johnm, I think that some of the reasons your OP is called biased are for one the topic which is rife with bias. You should never ask someone is something they have an opinion on is any of their buisness and not expect to sound antagonistic
You claim to explain perceptions of bias yet midstream conclude I should not expect to sound non-antagonistic- apparently discarding the question of bias. I never claimed any particular concern with perceptions of antagonism, for or against, and once more I'm left wondering what the point of that deduction was. I quite mean it when I ask what business is it of folks that zionism and Israel exist: there may well be better ways to run the state or to have set it up, and zionism may be inferior to any number of philosophies, but if it doesn't affect anyone's rights then it is not their business to intervene or claim harm. I'm not concerned with people who's preferences were disregarded, rather, I'm interested in what I asked about: how the state is some afront to anyone's legitimate interests and the same with zionism. The later has been claimed: i'm trying to have a discussion on the merits of these claims.
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Further, your OP as well as your following posts seem to suggest that the issue here is between the existence of the occupation vs the existence of the state of Israel
Huh? Which occupation? When? I don't see what any of the various times that strip of land has been occupied has to do with my question, necessarily. I simply asked whether there was any legitimate gripes with ISrael's existence and with Zionism as these are often referred to yet seldom explained.
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To me your post seemed profoundly naive of the issues, though you probibly post this way often to try to ask questions from a (american media informed) neutral perspective. This is what prompted my question as to weather or not you were really naive of the aggressions of the Israeli state. To someone else this may have looked antagonistic or biased. I can see why you are confused by accusations of bias, but your questions do seem to contain somewhat loaded language.
What does my perspective have to do with anything at all? If the questions are unfair than you can certainly show that to be the case- though I've no idea what my understanding or the degree to which I'm influenced by American media has to do with anything.
Its worth noting that despite the very clear questions, those who purport to find fault with Israel have universally criticized unstated presumptions that they claim, but do not show, to underlie my questions, and have continued to make other unsupported accusations as to my education, bias and other factors rather than address the issue.
If my claimed bias really does have anything to do with these questions, then it would be nice if someone would do more than just parrot that claim, and actually show how the questions are unfair or how my bias is evident.
This whole thread has been pretty ridiculous. The only thing I can think of being similar is when I made a post in the chemistry and pharmacology forum attempting to rebut the oft-stated claims around these parts that "marijuana hasn't killed anyone/can't kill you" and "isn't addictive". Other than that post, I can't recall more off topic erroneous nonsense ever being trotted out continuously. Guess we know what the sacred cows are around here: apparently its pot and Israel sucking. Just don't ask anyone why they feel the way they do
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
#14096363 - 03/10/11 04:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I may be somewhat unique here. I'm not on any side. I'm not on America's side and I'm not on their enemies side. I just observe like an alien watching the machinations of some bizarre acting animal species. Why do I feel this way? Because I have come to believe that everything will be this way no matter what I believe or what I would prefer.
I never choose sides, either, and I, too, observe the human species and its workings as if I were an alien. 
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Icelander said: Icelander ftw. 

I've learned a lot about Israel and Zionism by looking through this thread; I've never previously had much interest in this group of people so I've never researched, or know much about them. From what I've read so far, it appears that, for some reason, Jews were given a piece of land that did not belong to them by people who did not own it. I'm not sure why this happened, and I'm not sure why the Jews accepted the land while knowing full well that it isn't being given to them by the rightful owners; I know that there is some sort of religious significance to the land, but to what extent I'm not sure. Now, the Jews are stuck in perpetual warfare with the Palestinians (the people from whom they took land), and for some reason they're complaining. They got free land, and they're complaining. They are apparently backed by many of the world's superpowers, and they're still complaining.
This is basically the extent to which I'm aware of the whole Israeli controversy, or whatever you want to call it; I don't understand why a country would receive stolen land, while knowing full well that the owners of that land are not going to be happy with them, seems rather retarded IMO. Why didn't they just stay where they were, instead of accepting stolen land? IMO, they are basically asking for war by accepting stolen land, so they have no grounds to complain about Palestinian acts of war that occur at or within their borders.
I'm truly puzzled as to why Israel gets such special treatment; they had people steal land for them, and they receive some military defense from superpowers. Is there any other country today whose history and/or current situation is even remotely similar to this one's?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/10/11 06:57 PM)
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Grav


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
#14096545 - 03/10/11 07:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: I have. I also wrote it.
apparently you haven't since every post here has been directly related to zionism, zionist influence, israel, and whether or not it is our 'business', though you have repeatedly claimed the content is off-topic to what you asked. but i understand that is your schtick.
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I quite mean it when I ask what business is it of folks that zionism and Israel exist
you are obviously still having trouble grasping the simple connection between USA's financial support and the israel/palestine conflict hence why you are repeatedly asking for someone to explain it to you, even after it's been done so repeatedly. i will leave you to your ignorance.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 23 days, 5 hours
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Grav] 1
#14096624 - 03/10/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Grav said: you are obviously still having trouble grasping the simple connection between USA's financial support and the israel/palestine conflict hence why you are repeatedly asking for someone to explain it to you, even after it's been done so repeatedly. i will leave you to your ignorance.
Perhaps it is you and the other that are having trouble expressing your opinion in a logical, intelligent, and coherent manner rather than ignorance on the part of your audience.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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