Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDagon
Ð12/-\GøN 7/-\m312


Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Kickle]
    #14092860 - 03/09/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Modern psychology has taken a great interest in the thought-behavior relationship and how thoughts rarely reflect reality yet influence behavior all the same. And how when examined, we often see thoughts for the bullshit they are.

And this got me wondering: Are thoughts innately powerful? Do they have a force? A strength? Or is it something that is provided to them?




I think thoughts are made manifest through willpower. They can have power if you choose to grant them power.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Dagon]
    #14092872 - 03/09/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dagon said:
They can have power if you choose to grant them power.


Can they have power if you don't choose to grant them power?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineR2-D2
horseradish
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 945
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14092874 - 03/09/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
If there's no such thing as proof in science, then where is there a such thing as proof? Subjective experience? :undecided:



As far as I can tell, only THIS RIGHT NOW.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: R2-D2] * 1
    #14092877 - 03/09/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
 User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14092950 - 03/09/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Brain states are physical, thoughts are mental.  And you can show correlation between the two by looking at an fMRI scan of a person's brain while they're thinking.


So how do you know that what we detect on fMRI scans and actual thoughts aren't part of the same system? What makes you believe that the correlation between them is so loose that the causally connected brain states that produce thoughts don't necessitate that thoughts are also similarly causally connected?




If I may pretend to speak from deCypher's POV for a moment, *ehem*, "Brain states cause thoughts. Thoughts do not have causal power; If they did, then there would be two causes for the same thought event." Reductio.

(If i butchered that, please forgive me.)

But I don't see why brain states necessarily cause all thoughts.. perhaps brain states are merely sufficient.


--------------------
full blown human

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDagon
Ð12/-\GøN 7/-\m312


Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14092952 - 03/09/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Dagon said:
They can have power if you choose to grant them power.


Can they have power if you don't choose to grant them power?



Define power.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #14093067 - 03/09/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

penelope_tree said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Brain states are physical, thoughts are mental.  And you can show correlation between the two by looking at an fMRI scan of a person's brain while they're thinking.


So how do you know that what we detect on fMRI scans and actual thoughts aren't part of the same system? What makes you believe that the correlation between them is so loose that the causally connected brain states that produce thoughts don't necessitate that thoughts are also similarly causally connected?




If I may pretend to speak from deCypher's POV for a moment, *ehem*, "Brain states cause thoughts. Thoughts do not have causal power; If they did, then there would be two causes for the same thought event." Reductio.


That would only be true if thoughts and brain states are either weakly correlated, or not correlated at all; IMO the evidence suggests that, if thoughts and their corresponding brain states aren't the same thing, then they're at least part of the same system. By this logic, an event that is caused by a brain state is also necessarily caused by its corresponding thought.


Quote:

penelope_tree said:
But I don't see why brain states necessarily cause all thoughts.. perhaps brain states are merely sufficient.


Has a thought been observed that lacked a corresponding brain state? What else, besides brain states, are you suggesting is capable of causing thoughts?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/09/11 03:56 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14093160 - 03/09/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whoa, wait. Can we go back and at least agree that thoughts have innate power? I mean, what's the point of electroencephalographs and Magnetic Resonance Imagers [MRIs]? They work because thoughts in our brains have power, literally.

I'm a little wary of all the other New Age bullshit, but thoughts definitely operate on something similar to Ohm's law: Power is equal to resistance times current-squared.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14093530 - 03/09/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Brain states are physical, thoughts are mental.  And you can show correlation between the two by looking at an fMRI scan of a person's brain while they're thinking.


So how do you know that what we detect on fMRI scans and actual thoughts aren't part of the same system?




They could be; neutral monism as a philosophical theory of mind proposes that thoughts and brain states are different aspects of the same thing.  What that thing is, however, isn't so clear.  :lol:

Quote:

Poid said:
What makes you believe that the correlation between them is so loose that the causally connected brain states that produce thoughts don't necessitate that thoughts are also similarly causally connected?




Hmm, I may have to amend my position as I was hasty in extending it.  Perhaps thoughts are causally connected in that the brain state correlated to one thought causes the brain state correlated to another?  The correlation between thoughts and brain states is extremely strong, but any resolution dealing with causal connection between thoughts would first have to stipulate the relationship between thoughts and brain states: are they aspects of the same thing?  Does the one produce the other?

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Also there's no such thing as proof in science.  :nono:


You know what I meant




Say what you mean, señor.  :wink:

Quote:

Poid said:
If there's no such thing as proof in science, then where is there a such thing as proof? Subjective experience? :undecided:




Well, you can prove logical arguments that proceed from premise to conclusion, you can prove mathematical theorems given a set of assumed axioms, and some believe that subjective experience IS proof enough for various beliefs.  I'm not so sure on this last one.  :lol:

Quote:

nanomagnetic said:
Whoa, wait. Can we go back and at least agree that thoughts have innate power? I mean, what's the point of electroencephalographs and Magnetic Resonance Imagers [MRIs]? They work because thoughts in our brains have power, literally.

I'm a little wary of all the other New Age bullshit, but thoughts definitely operate on something similar to Ohm's law: Power is equal to resistance times current-squared.




I think we have to be careful with our terminology here: what we're measuring with electroencephalographs and MRI machines is patterns of neural firing and electromagnetic waves; these are not thoughts but rather brain states that are correlated with the mental thought.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14093620 - 03/09/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Brain states are physical, thoughts are mental.  And you can show correlation between the two by looking at an fMRI scan of a person's brain while they're thinking.


So how do you know that what we detect on fMRI scans and actual thoughts aren't part of the same system?




They could be; neutral monism as a philosophical theory of mind proposes that thoughts and brain states are different aspects of the same thing.  What that thing is, however, isn't so clear.  :lol:


I sorta lean towards that philosophy, except I think it's possible that thoughts are literally physical brain states, and not just a correlate to brain states.


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What makes you believe that the correlation between them is so loose that the causally connected brain states that produce thoughts don't necessitate that thoughts are also similarly causally connected?




Hmm, I may have to amend my position as I was hasty in extending it.  Perhaps thoughts are causally connected in that the brain state correlated to one thought causes the brain state correlated to another?


I think that is correct; also, I think it's possible that both brain states and thoughts can cause each other.


Quote:

deCypher said:
The correlation between thoughts and brain states is extremely strong, but any resolution dealing with causal connection between thoughts would first have to stipulate the relationship between thoughts and brain states: are they aspects of the same thing?  Does the one produce the other?


IMO they are aspect of the same thing; are there any other two phenomenon that are as strongly correlated to each other as brain states are to thoughts that aren't aspects of the same thing?


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Also there's no such thing as proof in science.  :nono:


You know what I meant




Say what you mean, señor.  :wink:


But sometimes I'm high/lazy. :mexican:


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
If there's no such thing as proof in science, then where is there a such thing as proof? Subjective experience? :undecided:




Well, you can prove logical arguments that proceed from premise to conclusion...


Isn't this what science does?


Quote:

deCypher said:
...some believe that subjective experience IS proof enough for various beliefs.  I'm not so sure on this last one.  :lol:


Neither am I. :stoned:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14093811 - 03/09/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
If there's no such thing as proof in science, then where is there a such thing as proof? Subjective experience? :undecided:




Well, you can prove logical arguments that proceed from premise to conclusion...


Isn't this what science does?




No... in science one proposes a hypothesis and proceeds to test it in an experiment; if it holds up after much experimentation it's usually called a theory.  I don't see any proof anywhere in this process.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14093865 - 03/09/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I don't see any proof anywhere in this process.


There are no logical arguments in science? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14094272 - 03/09/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There's none involved in the scientific method; I'm sure a scientist may use a logical argument in a paper he's writing.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14094301 - 03/09/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well you said science in general, not the scientific method in particular; IMO, scientific papers/journals are part of the process of science.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14094434 - 03/09/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless; the main thrust of science involves the disproof of previous theories rather than the proof of new ones.  Read Popper if you're interested in this topic (the philosophy of science).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14094490 - 03/09/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Regardless; the main thrust of science involves the disproof of previous theories rather than the proof of new ones.


What's the difference between proving that something is false, and disproving that something is true?


Quote:

deCypher said:
Read Popper if you're interested in this topic (the philosophy of science).


I'll keep that name in mind, thanks. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: Poid]
    #14094700 - 03/09/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What's the difference between proving that something is false, and disproving that something is true




The two are identical; by saying there is no proof in science what is implied is that there is no proof that a theory is correct in science.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14094765 - 03/09/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I guess you've got a point about terminology. But I'm also wary philosophies that take a strict middling stance. I mean, if the brain is neither mental (akin to virtual systems we use in our computers) nor physical (easily reconstructed using a plethora of well-understood macro-scale physical models), what's the point? The "neutral" substance feels too much like "dark matter" and doesn't really add to an understanding of the brain or, for people who believe there's a difference, the mind.

And really I think it's just a fancy way of claiming to be a dualist, without having to mention Descartes or dualism.

But I'm biased by my thoughts on the subject. As far as I'm concerned, the brain is a squishy data cross referencing machine and nothing more.


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: nanomagnetic]
    #14095136 - 03/09/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

nanomagnetic said:
I mean, if the brain is neither mental (akin to virtual systems we use in our computers) nor physical (easily reconstructed using a plethora of well-understood macro-scale physical models), what's the point? The "neutral" substance feels too much like "dark matter" and doesn't really add to an understanding of the brain or, for people who believe there's a difference, the mind.




Well, the brain is physical whereas the mind is mental.  I'm not entirely sure what distinction you're drawing between virtual systems and being reconstructable via physical models since the brain is essentially reconstructable: take a chip that acts in a functionally equivalent way to a neuron and hook up several hundred billion of 'em together and you've got a brain.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecircastes
Big Questions Small Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya Flag
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Do thoughts have innate power? [Re: deCypher]
    #14095540 - 03/09/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Tell me, what do you experience except thought?

So where's a good place to start if you're going to understand or experience anything?

Two people can go to the same place and have two totally different experiences.

Perception doesn't stop at the occipital lobe, it makes it way into the imaginative, creative right-hemisphere, where the rest of the scene is added.

The two people that went to this place merely went there in their minds, experienced their minds, and left in their minds.

There's no such thing as objectivity as far as the human experience is concerned.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* A sensual thought, innate ideas Ellis Dee 1,048 7 03/05/03 01:17 AM
by StrangeDays
* The Power in this World...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
fireworks_godS 3,623 64 08/21/03 08:56 AM
by sirreal
* power Anonymous 1,708 14 05/21/03 11:36 PM
by Sclorch
* projecting thoughts (artificial entities) Monkah 1,653 11 11/12/02 04:59 PM
by FreakQlibrium
* some thoughts on schizophrenia
( 1 2 all )
wordreality 3,523 20 10/06/03 10:28 AM
by fireworks_god
* Who controls your thoughts?
( 1 2 all )
Adamist 1,487 24 09/13/03 11:58 AM
by Spokesman
* do you think that anti-gravity propulsion is possible?
( 1 2 all )
blaze2 3,787 37 06/21/03 02:29 AM
by Rhizoid
* Human vs. Chimpanzee Strength
( 1 2 all )
Swami 11,909 29 07/16/02 01:34 PM
by francisco

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,943 topic views. 4 members, 9 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.