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Cynosure
allow me to be your guide.


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 4,228
Last seen: 11 months, 12 days
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Azure Essence]
#14099377 - 03/10/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Azure Essence said: You realize the lack of integration is 100% your fault, correct?
Just making sure you're aware.
I wouldn't consider that a "fault".. it's just how he chooses to view the psychedelic experience.
I believe there is a lot to be learned from the psychedelic experience and I do try to integrate some of these concepts into my normal waking life. However, there's no need to bash someone for their view; it seems like what you've learned from these experiences is quite a bit different from what I have integrated.
-------------------- "You can peel it [language] off the ceiling and make it dance in front of you" - McKenna <3 .
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Azure Essence


Registered: 10/03/10
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Cynosure]
#14099748 - 03/10/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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My bad I still forget people dont have experience like I do. I've never been a cat or soaped up an aliens back, but I have felt a sense of cosmic bliss and a sense that everything is perfect exactly where you are and all other aspects of metaphysical well being.
Not that out of this world to want to accept that into every day life.
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Azure Essence]
#14102098 - 03/11/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think its important to realize that psychedelics don't cause any spiritual thing on their own, at least imo-I mean some people consider it a holy sacrament with mystical powers and stuff, but I think the research (although its sadly limited) shows that it increases awareness and takes you into your subconscious in a way, and maybe if you don't really feel much "spiritually" then you might just have a pretty sound conscience, or maybe its just the setting you do it in. Obviously dropping acid and watching cartoons isn't going to be the same as if you did a legitimate therapy session with a psychedelic, which could serve for a catalyst for improvement. I personally think we need to stop focusing so damn much on the politics and legalization, and first focus on getting some more new quality research out there, and base our drug laws on good science
--------------------
Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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joemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Azure Essence]
#14102598 - 03/11/11 06:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Azure Essence said: My bad I still forget people dont have experience like I do. I've never been a cat or soaped up an aliens back, but I have felt a sense of cosmic bliss and a sense that everything is perfect exactly where you are and all other aspects of metaphysical well being.
Not that out of this world to want to accept that into every day life.
I get what your saying. Those psycho-analytic trips that seem like talking therapy where you see your life from different perspectives can be useful for some. I'm already pretty introspective as it is, am well versed in psychology and motivations so these types of trips never really gave me any deeper understanding of myself.
Those multi-titted things in the shower were the onset of a bad trip. After I got out, the whole of time and space seemed to be converging on that moment. It was as if the Big Bang was created and waiting for that distinct moment in time. All I remember is laying down and my head just exploded. Thoughts and ideas shattered and slammed into each other and I was trying to put it back together. I was Humpty fucking Dumpty on DMT for four hours.
-------------------- Don't PM me with bullshit. I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.
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Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,323
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 15 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: 1tokeovrtheline]
#14103063 - 03/11/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think its important to realize that psychedelics don't cause any spiritual thing on their own, at least imo
Mushrooms certainly cause mystical/spiritual type experiences (delusions/psychosis - call it what you want) at the right dosage. It's not a subtle effect that requires an "open mind" or new age sensibilities to appreciate, it seems to be a pretty specific (although poorly understood) biochemical property of how the drug operates in the brain.
HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL “MYSTICAL” EXPERIENCE
Obviously not everybody experiences the same kind of trips, and the exact effect will depend on your cultural/personal background, but with a healthy dose of mushrooms I can go from being an athiest to getting a very concrete "fear of God" experience that would scare the shit out of me if I was genuinely religious in normal life.
Quite honestly I prefer my trips to be more along the lines of aliens, giant lizards and spaceships, but the mushrooms seem to have the attitude of "fuck you, I don't care what you want, here's another death/God trip for you."
And they tell me DMT is stronger? Jesus. That's like watching the first hydrogen bomb test and turning around and asking "Hmmm, do you have anything more powerful?"
Personally, I'm not taking these drugs to "find" some state of spiritual ecstasy or "oneness" with God. It's been found. It's very nice, although temporary. It's like sailing on a journey to find the new world, finding the new world, then the new world disappears after a few hours, you sail home again, and then set out to find the new world again. It takes a few times to realise that although the the experience is ineffable, it's infinitely repeatable.
That's when you get to the problem posed in the comic-strip. So you've experienced some kind of spiritual journey/epiphany. Great. But you seem to be back to square one. Your trip is not going to feed the hungry or pay the mortgage. It's a beautiful and worthwhile experience, but it's difficult to directly apply it to everyday problems except in small, subtle ways. Maybe the small, subtle changes are the way forward?
I don't think this is really a "problem" with psychedelics unless you believe that there really is an "answer" to be discovered within them that is going to solve all your problems. You can take mushrooms with the intention of seeking some "sign from God" and the hilarious thing is that you might actually get it. But then what?
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
#14103244 - 03/11/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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ThePhilosophizer said:
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gornyhuy said: You guys have probably seen these little cartoons made from Alan Watts talks:
Wow the music analogy just totally blew my mind, thanks for posting 
that was a sick little video.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: akira_akuma]
#14103588 - 03/11/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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sunset_mission
Entheonaut



Registered: 01/22/11
Posts: 5,767
Loc: NYC (Intra Deitate...)
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: millzy]
#14103610 - 03/11/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Funnily enough my English class has been discussing Plato's Allegory of the Cave which I feel GREATLY ties in with this. As is the case of shamans and psychonauts, they have been freed from their cave... yet who will listen and not deem them madman? "o ya i chilled in the astral plane once and become one with the universe, ive seen reality" will not be taken seriously by most. I actually brought this up in class 2 hours ago (in my multimedia class now)
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Smawrpg
Urban Shaman



Registered: 08/23/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: sunset_mission]
#14103630 - 03/11/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why can't I just grow my own food, have parties in fields with music, food and friends.
On weekends I can eat my mushrooms I have been growing to make the evenings that much more special. No everday grind, no imposed morals or values other than don't steal or kill anybody, lots of music, lots of dancing, entheogens and meditation. Healthcare insurance? Fuck that, healthy mind healthy body. I would rather live 35 years of awesome than 80 years of meh.
Am i really asking for too much here?
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joemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: millzy]
#14103665 - 03/11/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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millzy said: of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
You say the experience has richness and importance. How is it important?
-------------------- Don't PM me with bullshit. I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: joemolloy]
#14103692 - 03/11/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
joemolloy said:
Quote:
millzy said: of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
You say the experience has richness and importance. How is it important?
it's as rich and important as you, or anyone else, deems it to be. it isn't for everyone and mileage may vary.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 866
Loc: innerverse&universe, surrealis...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Aldebaran]
#14103897 - 03/11/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
I think its important to realize that psychedelics don't cause any spiritual thing on their own, at least imo
Mushrooms certainly cause mystical/spiritual type experiences (delusions/psychosis - call it what you want) at the right dosage. It's not a subtle effect that requires an "open mind" or new age sensibilities to appreciate, it seems to be a pretty specific (although poorly understood) biochemical property of how the drug operates in the brain.
HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL “MYSTICAL” EXPERIENCE
Obviously not everybody experiences the same kind of trips, and the exact effect will depend on your cultural/personal background, but with a healthy dose of mushrooms I can go from being an athiest to getting a very concrete "fear of God" experience that would scare the shit out of me if I was genuinely religious in normal life.
Quite honestly I prefer my trips to be more along the lines of aliens, giant lizards and spaceships, but the mushrooms seem to have the attitude of "fuck you, I don't care what you want, here's another death/God trip for you."
And they tell me DMT is stronger? Jesus. That's like watching the first hydrogen bomb test and turning around and asking "Hmmm, do you have anything more powerful?"
Personally, I'm not taking these drugs to "find" some state of spiritual ecstasy or "oneness" with God. It's been found. It's very nice, although temporary. It's like sailing on a journey to find the new world, finding the new world, then the new world disappears after a few hours, you sail home again, and then set out to find the new world again. It takes a few times to realise that although the the experience is ineffable, it's infinitely repeatable.
That's when you get to the problem posed in the comic-strip. So you've experienced some kind of spiritual journey/epiphany. Great. But you seem to be back to square one. Your trip is not going to feed the hungry or pay the mortgage. It's a beautiful and worthwhile experience, but it's difficult to directly apply it to everyday problems except in small, subtle ways. Maybe the small, subtle changes are the way forward?
I don't think this is really a "problem" with psychedelics unless you believe that there really is an "answer" to be discovered within them that is going to solve all your problems. You can take mushrooms with the intention of seeking some "sign from God" and the hilarious thing is that you might actually get it. But then what?
I just meant they are not, imo, some kind of holy manna magical eucharist thing. They have neurological action in the brain which produces these effects, not thesophistic powers
--------------------
Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: millzy]
#14104787 - 03/11/11 04:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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millzy said: of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
Yes, many do not know themselves. In order to know yourself you need to be honest egotistically, that is a decently uncommon trait.
If you pay attention to your dreams you can get similar knowledge.
Who is to say you are not having spiritual experiences though anyway? I would imagine if you believe in a collective unconscious etc that being more in touch with your subconscious in any way shape or form could be considering broad definitions of spirituality. I expect those who would say psyches can't give you a spiritual experience would be almost exclusively the type who are Atheists anyway.
So saying something wont give you a spiritual experience isn't saying anything special.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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mundane
Comfy in Nautica


Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 695
Loc: Los Angeles
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Seanfu]
#14105105 - 03/11/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's all in the mind. Yours is one way, mine's one, his another. My mind's gotten enormous help from psychedelia. Doesn't mean someone else's hasn't. I think anyone who wouldn't get much must already be pretty zen, though. And personally I'd say the effects themselves are enlightening, in that they show me what my mind is capable of with the slightest manipulation.
--------------------
Tips for a good trip
drink me
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Seanfu]
#14105592 - 03/11/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
millzy said: of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
Yes, many do not know themselves. In order to know yourself you need to be honest egotistically, that is a decently uncommon trait.
If you pay attention to your dreams you can get similar knowledge.
Who is to say you are not having spiritual experiences though anyway? I would imagine if you believe in a collective unconscious etc that being more in touch with your subconscious in any way shape or form could be considering broad definitions of spirituality. I expect those who would say psyches can't give you a spiritual experience would be almost exclusively the type who are Atheists anyway.
So saying something wont give you a spiritual experience isn't saying anything special.
i'm not sure if you're contending with me or agreeing with me, but to clarify, i wasn't saying that psychedelics can't and don't induce "spiritual" experiences, just that, like everything else in life, the experience is what you make of it. that's not saying it isn't there, but you must take notice of it for it to apply. if you're completely close minded to that sort of thing, or are a moron, or both, you won't look at taking any psychedelic in that way. and that's fine. it's neither here nor there because psychedelics aren't an exclusive club imo. i think the bottom line with this stuff is if you're being safe and it makes your life better (even by just having fun), then that's okay too.
and beyond that, if you're trying to make every single psychedelic experience some soul searching, mystical endeavor, then chances are you're going to be disappointed 99% of the time. the inverse of people not looking deep enough into the experience is trying way, way too hard imo. i know a few guys who, quite frankly, have taken the fun out of drugs. i'm not even sure how anyone can do that but these guys have. sorry, i don't get it. i soak up my little moments of truth when they happen and rock n roll in the meantime. consequently, above anything else, i typically have a great time.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (03/11/11 07:33 PM)
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: millzy]
#14105775 - 03/11/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
millzy said: of course psychedelics aren't going to reveal anything about yourself that you don't know. how can you not know something about yourself? that's a pretty weak basis from which to refute the richness and importance of the psychedelic experience.
however, it is not a magic bullet, and it's troublesome to see some fall into the trap of believing they are of some higher order from having had these experiences.
Yes, many do not know themselves. In order to know yourself you need to be honest egotistically, that is a decently uncommon trait.
If you pay attention to your dreams you can get similar knowledge.
Who is to say you are not having spiritual experiences though anyway? I would imagine if you believe in a collective unconscious etc that being more in touch with your subconscious in any way shape or form could be considering broad definitions of spirituality. I expect those who would say psyches can't give you a spiritual experience would be almost exclusively the type who are Atheists anyway.
So saying something wont give you a spiritual experience isn't saying anything special.
i'm not sure if you're contending with me or agreeing with me, but to clarify, i wasn't saying that psychedelics can't and don't induce "spiritual" experiences, just that, like everything else in life, the experience is what you make of it. that's not saying it isn't there, but you must take notice of it for it to apply. if you're completely close minded to that sort of thing, or are a moron, or both, you won't look at taking any psychedelic in that way. and that's fine. it's neither here nor there because psychedelics aren't an exclusive club imo. i think the bottom line with this stuff is if you're being safe and it makes your life better (even by just having fun), then that's okay too.
and beyond that, if you're trying to make every single psychedelic experience some soul searching, mystical endeavor, then chances are you're going to be disappointed 99% of the time. the inverse of people not looking deep enough into the experience is trying way, way too hard imo. i know a few guys who, quite frankly, have taken the fun out of drugs. i'm not even sure how anyone can do that but these guys have. sorry, i don't get it. i soak up my little moments of truth when they happen and rock n roll in the meantime. consequently, above anything else, i typically have a great time.
It was a contention. But it is a contention saying a subconscious journey of any kind is a spiritual journey by loose definition. If of coarse you can accept any level of spirituality.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Seanfu]
#14105905 - 03/11/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'm still unclear as to how that was contending my statement, but okay.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: millzy]
#14105931 - 03/11/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said: i'm still unclear as to how that was contending my statement, but okay. 
You were saying that we do not have spiritual experiences from psychedelics. Right?
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Varanid

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 58
Loc: stuck in the middle wih y...
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Seanfu]
#14106724 - 03/11/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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For society in general I think there is the culture of building an almost false reality, and to test the boundaries of ones perception of that reality seems almost insulting to people or that you are insane.
For tripping I have had trips just for visuals and others that have changed the way I truely see things and view the word. I like both and gear trips for them. I'm hoping to take a solo trip soon and do a good soul searching and do a mental defrag. By removing us from our normal though pattern I think we are allowed an opportunity to think of things outside our normal box.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: One Big Problem with Psychedelia and/or Enlightenment [Re: Seanfu]
#14107888 - 03/12/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
millzy said: i'm still unclear as to how that was contending my statement, but okay. 
You were saying that we do not have spiritual experiences from psychedelics. Right?
no, i wasn't saying that at all. i said that the spiritual aspect of psychedelics is all a matter of perspective. some people don't view the experience as spiritual, for whatever reason. even if taking psychedelics just amounts to having fun with your friends and looking at visuals, that's okay as long as you're playing it safe.
i think it's great that people can have spiritual experiences on psychedelics. i certainly have had my fair share. that doesn't make me superior to someone who just doesn't even care about that side of psychedelics. bottom line is the experience is what it is regardless of however people categorize it. like i said, it's what you make of it.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (03/12/11 08:48 AM)
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