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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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John Chang and Chi...debunked?
#14084692 - 03/08/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I saw this video posted over in the Mystery forum and figured I'd ask the seasoned debunkers in this one about it... it's a short clip demonstrating the abilities of a self-proclaimed chi master who can create electric shocks and light things on fire by manipulating his "chi". Is the entire documentary a hoax, or how were the individual feats shown within faked? I'm honestly puzzled as there doesn't appear to be any CGI manipulation of the clip itself, but nonetheless something about strikes me as fishy; maybe it's the way the chi master uses the excuse that the spirit of his own master came to him during the night and told him never to let himself be filmed again after an accident involving a chopstick... or how he originally doesn't want to be filmed but changes his mind unexpectedly later on. What are your thoughts on this?
And to align this more properly to the subject matter of this forum, what do you think about "chi"? Is this just a much-abused term for visualized energy that we can project and feel throughout our body using our imagination, or can we actually master enough of our body's capabilities on the cellular level via years of meditation that we can create electromagnetic currents (presumably by firing nerves at just the right frequency)? Is "chi" a valid psychological phenomenon or sheerly a hoax?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14084740 - 03/08/11 01:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hoax.
Why all the lame videos in front of no one or only believers instead of people actually capable of validating?
Remember the Chi 'Master who could knock people (i.e. students paying him) over without touching them, but could never do it to a skeptic?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Do you think the film makers were in cahoots with him? How would you go about faking electric shocks if you're bare-chested with no apparent way of connecting a wire carrying a current to your hands? And what about the paper lighting on fire? I'd be interested to hear your explanation of how these things were faked.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14085039 - 03/08/11 03:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I saw this video posted over in the Mystery forum and figured I'd ask the seasoned debunkers in this one about it... it's a short clip demonstrating the abilities of a self-proclaimed chi master who can create electric shocks and light things on fire by manipulating his "chi". Is the entire documentary a hoax, or how were the individual feats shown within faked? I'm honestly puzzled as there doesn't appear to be any CGI manipulation of the clip itself, but nonetheless something about strikes me as fishy; maybe it's the way the chi master uses the excuse that the spirit of his own master came to him during the night and told him never to let himself be filmed again after an accident involving a chopstick... or how he originally doesn't want to be filmed but changes his mind unexpectedly later on. What are your thoughts on this?
I've seen this clip before, I think it's bullshit; I don't understand why someone who really has such abilities would keep it a secret instead of try to profit from it.
Quote:
deCypher said: And to align this more properly to the subject matter of this forum, what do you think about "chi"? Is this just a much-abused term for visualized energy that we can project and feel throughout our body using our imagination, or can we actually master enough of our body's capabilities on the cellular level via years of meditation that we can create electromagnetic currents (presumably by firing nerves at just the right frequency)? Is "chi" a valid psychological phenomenon or sheerly a hoax?
I don't see how it could be considered a psychological phenomenon, it's more of a physiological phenomenon; I think it's possible that many people have different ideas on exactly what chi is, sort of like God. Some people interpret the energetic sensations they experience in their body as chi energy, while others claim to be able to shoot balls of energy at people, a la Dragonball Z.

I personally believe the balls of energy are bullshit, but I don't think I can say that those certain energetic body sensations that people call chi are bullshit.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: Poid]
#14085349 - 03/08/11 06:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I don't understand why someone who really has such abilities would keep it a secret instead of try to profit from it.
Isn't profiting from his skill how John Chang was supposedly making his living?
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Poid said: I personally believe the balls of energy are bullshit, but I don't think I can say that those certain energetic body sensations that people call chi are bullshit. 
I think this post I found on abovetopsecret.com that was supposedly written by one of Chang's students should clear everything up. 
Quote:
Kebenaran // Apr 20, 2007
I remind everyone sifu not teach now. If you looking him is for nothing.
repeat I sifu know more than 20 year. kosta book wrong many. standing exercise he make self. many people talking just imagination only. western student befor training mopai little little understandng. all wrong. not listen learning other an wrong make. gone now cannot control emotion. after make many story internet. taking money people. many chinese studemt same. emotion control cannot. now only local student an one western student andreas. must good heart an deep level meditation can. sifu no one give permission teaching this. must level 4 then can. sifu now documentary coming. door closed now. many come angry going. no see sifu. spending much money coming. you want learning cannot. master this qi only deep in china mountain. chinese speaking not same like city speaking. maybe you finding master different qi can china city. different qi not so powerful. little same only. not trick you money on internet say I bring you master. good luck.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14085357 - 03/08/11 06:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is always a spiritual reason why they can't preform in front of skeptics.
FRAUD ALERT!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14085967 - 03/08/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Notice how he's the one who rips the newspaper and balls it up, not a neutral observer.
Coincidence? 
Question 1 for the believers: can you explain how David Coperfield can make an elephant vanish on stage right in front of your eyes? No?
Question 2 for the believers: do you think David Coperfield does it with supernatural powers or illusion?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: Diploid]
#14085988 - 03/08/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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For me the most interesting part of it is the "shocks" he gives people. Maybe he's got a battery in his shoe and is running current...I don't know.
But I can tell you if someone's hand was "generating" an energy field so strong I couldn't bear to have it on me I'd be legitimately intrigued.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: Diploid] 1
#14086250 - 03/08/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I vote for supernatural powers.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14087725 - 03/08/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said: I don't understand why someone who really has such abilities would keep it a secret instead of try to profit from it.
Isn't profiting from his skill how John Chang was supposedly making his living?
I'm not sure, I don't know much about the guy; I wouldn't doubt it, though. Maybe he didn't want to be filmed at first because he wasn't carrying all of his magical gear or some shit. 
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said: I personally believe the balls of energy are bullshit, but I don't think I can say that those certain energetic body sensations that people call chi are bullshit. 
I think this post I found on abovetopsecret.com that was supposedly written by one of Chang's students should clear everything up. 
Quote:
Kebenaran // Apr 20, 2007
I remind everyone sifu not teach now. If you looking him is for nothing.
repeat I sifu know more than 20 year. kosta book wrong many. standing exercise he make self. many people talking just imagination only. western student befor training mopai little little understandng. all wrong. not listen learning other an wrong make. gone now cannot control emotion. after make many story internet. taking money people. many chinese studemt same. emotion control cannot. now only local student an one western student andreas. must good heart an deep level meditation can. sifu no one give permission teaching this. must level 4 then can. sifu now documentary coming. door closed now. many come angry going. no see sifu. spending much money coming. you want learning cannot. master this qi only deep in china mountain. chinese speaking not same like city speaking. maybe you finding master different qi can china city. different qi not so powerful. little same only. not trick you money on internet say I bring you master. good luck.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: Poid] 1
#14087875 - 03/08/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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magic missile !!!
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: andrewss]
#14087904 - 03/08/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I vote for supernatural powers. 
If they actually exist, they aren't supernatural at all, so the term is really an abstraction more than anything.
The film makers and crew were presented as a group of skeptics and 'proof-ers', The universe exists, did you see who made it? Maybe it is a trick too.
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R2-D2
horseradish



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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: WScott]
#14093289 - 03/09/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
WScott said: If they actually exist, they aren't supernatural at all, so the term is really an abstraction more than anything.
The film makers and crew were presented as a group of skeptics and 'proof-ers', The universe exists, did you see who made it? Maybe it is a trick too.
This. And chi isn't only all this whizbang shit.
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Dagon
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: R2-D2]
#14093417 - 03/09/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: WScott]
#14093423 - 03/09/11 04:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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There's one born right about... NOW!
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jlaxatx
Stranger
Registered: 03/17/11
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these examples of chi are tainted to say the least. better examples can be seen from the shaolin monks. most common use of chi in the western world can be seen by breaking bricks with chi or chi breaking. its basically means you focus ur body's energy to a certain spot. it takes a life time to master ones own chi and shouldn't be considered to be an easy task by any means and most people never even get that far with out dying from natural causes first. meditation is used to help connect with your chi and some say praying is even a form a meditation so go figure...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: jlaxatx]
#14168302 - 03/23/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
these examples of chi are tainted to say the least. better examples can be seen from the shaolin monks
Seeing as there is no such thing as chi other than technique, speed, leverage and strength, then one faulty example cannot be better than another.
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meditation is used to help connect with your chi
Really? Chi must be connected to? I would wager any amount you choose that no physical mastery can be done without physical repetition and training. I wonder how I got 34 trophies in my sport without meditating? Hmmm....
Quote:
it takes a life time to master ones own chi
And you know this how? From meeting every person on the planet or regurguitating some story you heard?
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: John Chang and Chi...debunked? [Re: deCypher]
#14168543 - 03/23/11 06:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: it's a short clip
Lies! Damnable Lies!
I'd say mix of hoax and garden-variety physical manipulation tehcniques. The accupuncture probably works to some degree- placebo effect and a result of inducing pain if nothing else.
I don't know what the deal with the shocking is. I assume its too reliable to be normal static induction. Perhaps batteries? I have no idea, but seems like electric discharge given the need for grounding, provided the people really were shocked.
Some of the physical manipulations seem to be affecting nerve stimulation and pressure point stimulation or tendon manipulation. The example where he apparently compelled someone's arm to move via accupuncture could also be the needle touching or damaging the nerve. Spastic movements like that are seen with needles touching nerves during medical procedures, though I've not seen any that well coordinated and fully contracting (usually appears as more rapid fluttering of the muscle). Personally I wouldn't let that guy mess with needles on me- I don't need any nerve damage.
Paper ignition: I figure its a hoax/trick.
Chi: ill-defined term that's a hoax to the extent it isn't simply normal physical manifestations of focusing. Remember the tibettan monk example seanfu cited that turned out to be apparently people just felxing their muscles to heat wet towels (studies showed their oxygen consumption and body temperature going up, consistant with this banal explanation)
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jlaxatx
Stranger
Registered: 03/17/11
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ur funny
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