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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14081816 - 03/07/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

How can language make things appear to be separate?




Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...


Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...


My idea of a tree is not actually itself? :wtf:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.


How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?




It states that oneness is default and consciousness itself causes separation. Having your own consciousness means that you now have comparisons and differences. You would need language to describe these comparisons etc.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14081933 - 03/07/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

How can language make things appear to be separate?




Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...


Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...


My idea of a tree is not actually itself? :wtf:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.


How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?




It states that oneness is default and consciousness itself causes separation.


Consciousness doesn't cause any separation, it merely recognizes the separation that already exists.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
Having your own consciousness means that you now have comparisons and differences. You would need language to describe these comparisons etc.


Those differences already exist, and that you can make comparisons between them in now way suggests that separation is an illusion; when we compare things, we're looking at two or more separate things as they appear to us and analyzing their relationship to each other & everything else, we're not creating any separation by doing so. That we would need language to describe those comparisons also in no way suggests that separation is an illusion; a description of a comparison merely describes two or more separate things, and there's nothing about such a description that suggests that separation is an illusion.


The universe is one giant process comprised of several processes, so I reject any notion that claims that either "oneness" or separation is an illusion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14082023 - 03/07/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not supporting that point. I don't delve into shit like that too much considering the impossibility of knowing at least in this lifetime. But I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are. So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14082131 - 03/07/11 04:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.




What if the self proclaimed enlightened person spent their whole life "changing"?  Can't they just rest now?  Why do you think people need to be constantly changing?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14082652 - 03/07/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
...I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are.


How does this mean that separation is even an illusion in the first place? You're begging the question, I'm asking you to prove how separation is an illusion, and you're telling me it is because "consciousness itself causes the illusion"; that statement is by no means proof.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)


So how do you think this suggests that separation is an illusion? When one is unconscious, one doesn't perceive separation because one doesn't perceive anything; this doesn't at all mean that consciousness creates an illusory separation, it just means that one's consciousness isn't "turned on", so to speak, while unconscious. A conscious observer observing is merely observing the separation that already exists, s/he is not creating an illusory separation that does not really exist.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/07/11 06:23 PM)

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14082750 - 03/07/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
...I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are.


How does this mean that separation is even an illusion in the first place? You're begging the question, I'm asking you to prove how separation is an illusion, and you're telling me it is because "consciousness itself causes the illusion"; that statement is by no means proof.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)


So how do you think this suggests that separation is an illusion? When one is unconscious, one doesn't perceive separation because one doesn't perceive anything; this doesn't at all mean that consciousness creates an illusory separation, it just means that one's consciousness isn't "turned on" so to speak while unconscious. A conscious observer observing is merely observing the separation that already exists, s/he is not creating an illusory separation that does not really exist.




I have no idea. That's the extent of my understanding. I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness. And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.


--------------------
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:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14082822 - 03/07/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.


Why?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.


There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14082949 - 03/07/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.


Why?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.


There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.




1- because an energetic oneness woud imply that there would then be a higher superconscious. That alone could be a god.
2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?


--------------------
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:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu] * 1
    #14083003 - 03/07/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?




:rofl:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14083028 - 03/07/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.


Why?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.


There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.




1- because an energetic oneness woud imply that there would then be a higher superconscious.


How so? What do you mean by "higher superconscious"?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
That alone could be a god.


Key word 'could'.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?


Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far absolutely no evidence that suggests that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death has been discovered; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14083081 - 03/07/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far there is absolutely no evidence that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.

It's still not evidence. This is coming from a person who has spent the vast majority of their life as a skeptical atheist/agnostic. There is no way to disprove an afterlife. It is intuitive that we are biological chemical robots. This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.

Once again, I agree with the lack of evidence, as in none, but still no evidence possible to the contrary.


--------------------
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14083187 - 03/07/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.




That is not even Philosophy 101; it is Philosophy pre-kindergarten. Did you really need to state what every mature poster here already knows?


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14083215 - 03/07/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

We can't disprove unicorns, gremlins, fairies, or elves either...

Should we expend energy trying to find evidence that these creatures do not exist? Or should we focus our energy on solving practical problems than will improve human life?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14083239 - 03/07/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far there is absolutely no evidence that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.

It's still not evidence.


Yes it is, do you even know what evidence is? Evidence is an outward sign, or an indication; all of the research that has been done up until this point indicates that creatures do not have souls, and absolutely nothing has been found that indicates that creatures have souls.

You may be confusing evidence with proof; I'm not claiming that there's proof that creatures don't have souls, I'm saying that the available evidence indicates that they don't have souls. Proof and evidence are not the same thing.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
This is coming from a person who has spent the vast majority of their life as a skeptical atheist/agnostic.


I haven't even spent the majority of my life as an atheist/agnostic, and I don't see how you making irrelevant personal comments about me contributes to this discussion.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
There is no way to disprove an afterlife.


This is what makes it an unfalsifiable theory, and unfalsifiable theories are hardly, if at all, worth entertaining seriously.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
It is intuitive that we are biological chemical robots. This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.


Sure, God can't be disproved because his existence is unfalsifiable; you already said this.


Quote:

Seanfu said:
Once again, I agree with the lack of evidence, as in none, but still no evidence possible to the contrary.


Right, it is unfalsifiable, not to mention the concept itself is vaguely defined; how would one go about testing it experimentally?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14083305 - 03/07/11 07:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
We can't disprove unicorns, gremlins, fairies, or elves either...

Should we expend energy trying to find evidence that these creatures do not exist? Or should we focus our energy on solving practical problems than will improve human life?




It's a big enough question to be valid. Not practical at all though.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14083318 - 03/07/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.




That is not even Philosophy 101; it is Philosophy pre-kindergarten. Did you really need to state what every mature poster here already knows?




Yes considering people were stating there is evidence against god/afterlife/spaghetti monsters more than evidence for.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14083352 - 03/07/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Do you even know what an unfalsifiable theory is?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14083472 - 03/07/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well there is more evidence against God because there is ZERO evidence for God...

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14083539 - 03/07/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wouldn't say ZERO... you still have to count people's visions of talking to God, near-death experiences, and all the miracles tallied up by the Catholic Church.  Granted, most of this is pretty damn shoddy but I don't think it's fair to say that there is absolutely no evidence in favor of God's existence.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
    #14083629 - 03/07/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There's no objective evidence outside of people's self-reports.

It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.

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