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OfflineShroomScape
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E-Prime: A Self-Experiment
    #14082460 - 03/07/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

For the next month I will attempt to write all my posts in English-Prime, E-Prime for short, which amounts to nothing more than speaking without the verb "to be." In other words, goodbye "be, is, are, were, being, become, been, etc."

Eliminating 'is-ness' from communication will hopefully remove any Aristotelian-metaphysical-spooks that haunt my ideas; force me to speak in terms of context, experience, and actuality; and prevent me from overstating any claims.

Anyone interested in learning more about this can find a sample of Robert Anton Wilson's writing on it (and with it) here.

Wish me luck. I'll need it.


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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14082571 - 03/07/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This looks intriguing. Good luck!


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: R2-D2]
    #14082974 - 03/07/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Take it up a level and write all your posts without using the letter 'e'.  :tongue:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: deCypher]
    #14083005 - 03/07/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dad, the e on that typewriter doesn't work.
No worries. I'll do without. let's see here... The Eatery? No. Food bag. By Homer. No. Earl. No. Tom Simpson.




Or something along those lines.  :homerdoh3:


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Offlinehuliganjetta
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14083749 - 03/07/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Good luck with this! I just recently bought Quantum Psychology actually, so I'm excited to learn more about this experiment.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14084009 - 03/07/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's interesting that this has been named. I first came across the idea years ago reading some spirituality site, and someone said something about the 'new' way of speaking about spirituality was to say how things seem, rather than how they are, which is what E-Prime appears to be, verbal acknowledgement that nothing is known for sure.

In the context of spirituality, it allows people to entertain ideas without swallowing them, or asking others to... which is great for the spiritual community as far as I'm concerned. "It seemed like I was floating outside my body". It may be that the person's consciousness was floating outside the body (which I would doubt) but in either case, the person gets to be correct without insinuating that the other person should agree something is reality.

It deflects a lot of flack, and is a method I employ here.:grin:

Breaking down the 10 examples given:

behaves as
appears as
appears
appears
In memory, I think I recall
seems like
seems 
seems like
registers as
I think I saw

I don't use it all the time: "The weed is in the bag on the shelf" works for me. I'm pretty sure it is, but if not, bummer.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: Rahz]
    #14094013 - 03/09/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Rahz, sound like you have a fairly good grasp of how to use E-Prime. :thumbup: I feel like a lot of the miscommunication and misunderstandings would benefit from a translation into E-Prime. As you pointed out Rahz, using E-Prime in writing fairs much easier than using it in speech. 


Quote:

Good luck with this! I just recently bought Quantum Psychology actually, so I'm excited to learn more about this experiment.




Huligan, I just finished Quantum Psychology earlier. Already it ranks as one of my favorite books of all time. Definitely send me a PM once you finish reading it, or, even better, post on this thread. I have an itch to talk about it.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: Rahz]
    #14095271 - 03/09/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If I understand you, that seems like a good way to speak in general.  I agree that it would avoid a lot of criticism on a critical board such as this, and think that's more than just a semantic defense:  saying something is something implies certainty that is at best ignorant and at worst hubris, in many cases.  I also try and avoid saying what things are, rather describing my thoughts an conclusion.

To me this seems similar to the practice of people conflating declarations with arguments.  How many people when challenged or when offering contrary positions here simply declare their endorsement or belief in something as if that is useful?  I try and catch myself before I do something like that, and slip, but it seems like some are not conscious of the insufficiency of these claims or find some merit in them.

It seems this is related, the bare conclusions often take to form of "something is this" and so forth.  Bare conclusions = :thumbdown: in a philosophy forum, let alone a debate-oriented one in which you are advancing a contrary position by simply declaring it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: johnm214]
    #14095885 - 03/10/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree it is useful in general, though the extent to which we speak of the apparent and the 'real' seems at all times to be a matter of confidence, and maybe practicality, thought out or not. I think there are many flat statements used in a conversation and it's only when there is disagreement that it becomes an issue. I agree that blind faith isn't the best way to approach philosophical questions, though it could be argued that it's better than not approaching at all.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: Rahz]
    #14099503 - 03/10/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As explained in RAW's book Quantum Psychology, using "is" invokes metaphysical spooks which grant objects, ideas, or events, essences that they may or may not have.

A simple example of this takes place anytime someone says, "All drugs ARE bad." In the mind of the listener, drugs now carry some metaphysical 'spook' or essence which remains intractable. However, if we restate the statement "All drugs ARE bad" in E-Prime, I feel that many of our problems would simply disappear. Compare it to the following statement:

"All drugs seem bad."
Or even better
"All drugs seem bad to me."
Or, the best:
"All drugs seem bad to me because [insert relevant example]."

Thus, in E-Prime, the goodness or badness (the essence and spook) of drugs exists only contextualized. We avoid assigning Absolute-ness to objects, events, ideas, etc, and rather place them within an observer-centric context.

Using the invented word sombunall (some but not all), also constitutes another good way to avoid speaking in absolutes.

"Sombunall drugs seem bad to me because somebunall can cause addiction."

I can't help but think that the "war on drugs" would look completely different, perhaps saner, perhaps non-existant, if phrased in E-prime.

:shrug: I dunno. Just sayin'.


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Offlinehuliganjetta
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14104813 - 03/11/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:

Huligan, I just finished Quantum Psychology earlier. Already it ranks as one of my favorite books of all time. Definitely send me a PM once you finish reading it, or, even better, post on this thread. I have an itch to talk about it.




I definitely will let you know when I do. I'm going through Prometheus Rising right now, trying to take notes and remember everything that I can, it's such a wonderful read!


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: huliganjetta]
    #14105009 - 03/11/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I enjoyed Prometheus Rising, though I personally enjoyed Quantum Psychology more. You'll find quite a bit of overlap between the two, although PR goes into Leary's 8 Circuit model of consciousness in far greater detail. In QP, the 8 circuit model makes only a brief cameo appearance.

Happy reading!

I will see you when you come out the other end of the rabbit hole

if you come out.


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InvisibleVaranid
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14146005 - 03/18/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the link over here. I probably won't buy the book but I will try to use the general idea of E-Prime especially during discussions and debates. I read about the Fallacies of Logic once and this seems to go along with them. I don't remember them all but one might be Slippery Slope Fallacy. If X happens Y will happen. Keeping with the drug theme "If you smoke marijuana you will use more dangerous drugs."

Between wavicles, cats locked in boxes with uranium and poison, and filling objects with essences by how I talk I think I have enough new ideas and information to ponder and understand better haha


Rahz that's pretty interesting about the religious site saying that. I say I think or I believe a lot when talking about religion/spirituality.


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: Varanid]
    #14146017 - 03/18/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

if you really wanted to read the book, you wouldn't have to buy it. The second link in my signature sends you to a website where you can download the pdf of the entire book. :thumbup:


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14147007 - 03/19/11 02:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wilson couldn't talk himself out of post-polio, unfortunately.


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: The Whale]
    #14148319 - 03/19/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, he certainly couldn't cure it.

But he DID manage to live a good portion of his life without the problems of polio--even when traditional science considered the odds against him.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14148898 - 03/19/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just had a thought about this language... how could one translate any classic book into it?  Take the case of a woman in the book saying "that's a gorgeous car!".  Now, if I were in her situation and spoke only E-prime, I would say "that appears to be a gorgeous car" because I believe in subjectivity of perception, but what if the woman does not?  She really means that the car is gorgeous, NOT just that her perception of it deems it so.  How could we coherently translate any major work of fiction that uses the verb "to be"?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (03/19/11 03:01 PM)


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14149036 - 03/19/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I found it a very interesting exercise to look up all the synonyms of 'believe' and 'belief' and then look up the synonyms of the synonyms and then look at all the antonyms.

The English language maps out many different possible forms of belief and believing or perspectives on them.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: deCypher]
    #14149048 - 03/19/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Just had a thought about this language... how could one translate any classic book into it?  Take the case of a woman in the book saying "that's a gorgeous car!".  Now, if I were in her situation and spoke only E-prime, I would say "that appears to be a gorgeous car" because I believe in subjectivity of perception, but what if the woman does not?  She really means that the car is gorgeous, NOT just that her perception of it deems it so.  How could we coherently translate any major work of fiction that uses the verb "to be"?





I guess you'd have to add a caveat to use E-prime in first person, but third person is no holds barred.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: E-Prime: A Self-Experiment [Re: Freedom]
    #14149379 - 03/19/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Imagine if mainstream media only used E-prime.

How would the world look if a spokesperson interrupted all the world news channels and, being translated to a dozen languages, announced: "In light of Wilson's Maybe-Logic paradigm, we must now admit we're not really sure what's going on in the world. No one really knows for certain, about anything, and chances are... you don't either. Have a great day."


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