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Offlinerickjamez20
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Registered: 03/06/11
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Ego death.
    #14076644 - 03/06/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've read about ego death, and i have heard negative and positive things about it. if i start trippin on psychedelics, is it worth a try to go for ego death? or should i not go for it, and stay away ?


--------------------
http://iacopoapps.appspot.com/hopalongwebgl/ https://www.outpan.com/app/44bdd9869c/interactive-fluid-simulation - If you're tripping click here. Thank me later.
Every single person deserves a psychedelic experience, make it happen. :smile:

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OfflineHarryL
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Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14077058 - 03/06/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's what it is... Temp loss of self.... I doubt you want to start with that but after a while work up to it

There are more lessons to be learned other than ego death though....


--------------------
Mushroom hunting:  One bad mushroom can ruin your day! Know it or throw it.

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OfflineAzure Essence
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Re: Ego death. [Re: HarryL]
    #14077091 - 03/06/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ego loss is the destination for intense periods of meditation, prayer, fasting, trance, contemplation, poetry, love, and many other beautiful and powerful life changing things we experience in life.

What could POSSIBLY be bad about that?

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Offlinerickjamez20
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Azure Essence]
    #14077215 - 03/06/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

yah of course i would work up to it, idk i've heard it's very frightening and stuff like that. but i'll just assume its good until i try it myself


--------------------
http://iacopoapps.appspot.com/hopalongwebgl/ https://www.outpan.com/app/44bdd9869c/interactive-fluid-simulation - If you're tripping click here. Thank me later.
Every single person deserves a psychedelic experience, make it happen. :smile:

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OfflineAzure Essence
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Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14077251 - 03/06/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It is extremely frightening. All good things in life are at first.

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Offlinedummy
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Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14077260 - 03/06/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

should you?? that is a question only you can answer... have you ever wanted to melt away into nothing and everything? it's a scary thought, but when you're there you understand that it's the only 'where'. you're only fooled into thinking you're somewhere.


--------------------
People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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OfflineLoonery
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Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14077438 - 03/06/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I've read about ego death ...




Consider your source.  Where did you read about it?  I have found that a lot of discussion about the ego and "ego death" which I have seen online involves almost thoughtless regurgitation of the ideas of the 'psychedelic philosophers' from the 1960s like Tim Leary.  In many of the discussions I've seen and been involved with regarding "ego death," it seems to me that some don't even think the most basic aspects of the term through and just repeat what the psychedelic fathers of the 1960s said and what some of their online contemporaries have said.

The first important thing to do is define the ego.  What is the ego?  The ego is one's sense of self.  That means that the ego is a model: it is a model of the self.  So, if the ego is a model of the self, that also means that it is only a conceptual idea.  The ego is the "virtual self" that one experiences.  The ego only exists during experience. 

It surprises me that many do not seem to find this plainly obvious.  If the ego is one's SENSE of self then it is something to be sensed.  That is, the ego is something which is experienced.

The ego only 'exists' during experience but it is also a neccessary part of experience.  Conscious experience involves sensing the information received by one's senses.  That is, experience is the sensing of the world in relation to one's self.  Experience requires a sense of self.  Experience requires that a self be present in order to have experiences.  Without a sense of self, there is no experience.

There is no such thing as experiencing ego death.  You can experience profound changes in your ego and I suppose you could say that "ego death" is just a colloquial term that is intended to refer to profound changes in one's sense of self.  I'd call that "ego transformation" and it is quite common on hallucinogens.

Quote:

and i have heard negative and positive things about it




In my rather arrogant opinion, most of what you heard is poorly thought out idealistic nonsense.

One's sense of self, or one's model of self, undergoes radical transformations while on LSD, mescaline, psilocin, ketamine, DXM, etc.  All of these drugs commonly produce radical transformations in one's ego.  You can react to these experiences in any way you can imagine.  You can find the transformations frightening (perhaps because you've suddenly started to become convinced that you are evil or something).  You can find them bizarre and confusing (because previously integrated cognitive functions now seem to be totally disconnected, as though they belong to entirely separate beings - for example, on dissociatives, my "verbal-conceptual mind" which is the "I" that 'thinks in words' becomes a totally separate entity from the "I" that physically exists and that ingested the drug - this leads to the rather intense and strange sensation that my thoughts are being thought by one entity who is beaming the thoughts through space to the entirely separate entity who is on the planet Earth tripping).  You can find ego transformations positive and illuminating (it may suddenly seem profound to realize that your whole idea and understanding of yourself is just a model: just your brain's best guess). 

Ego transformations are neither inherently positive or negative, in my opinion.  How you react to them is variable.

Quote:

is it worth a try to go for ego death?




No, it's a bullshit term that literally means you stop experiencing (i.e. you are unconscious).  "Ego death" is not synonymous with "enlightenment" and does not mean that you suddenly transcend everything and understand the secret of the universe.  It is not some ultimate state of enlightenment.  It is just the total destruction of your sense of self, which simply means that you are no longer capable of experiencing (because experiences have to happen to something - to a self).

I've found that my point of view can really offend hallucinogenic drug users and I think this is because many users invest a lot in their idealism about ego death and the ability of these drugs to lead to enlightenment or to help produce insights.  It's fine if others disagree, but I'd appreciate it if anyone who disagrees offered logical explanations for disagreeing instead of the typical responses that I'm used to getting when I offend the sensibilities of people who use psychedelics for mystical reasons (those typical responses usually just involve people telling me that I must be stupid if I don't believe in ego death in the way it's conceptualized by Tim Leary).

As for transformation of the ego, you simply don't have a choice.  If you take a hallucinogenic drug, then your sense of self is going to be altered no matter what.

Another way to understand the term "ego death" is to see it merely as being a transformation in one's ego: it is the "death" of one's sense of self and the rebirth into a new sense of self.  This is usually not what psychedelic drug users mean by "ego death" (because they often specifically refer to "experiencing ego death" and all of the mystical results of such an experience).  Usually, "ego death" in this sense is seen as a result of "experiencing ego death" because when one's old ego dies, it is replaced by a new ego.  I think that this kind of "ego death" is problematic because one's sense of self is by no means ever static.  Your sense of self can always change, whether you're on hallucinogens or not (it changes when you dream but it also changes when something happens to cause yourself to understand yourself differently).  I prefer the term "ego transformation" because "ego death" implies discontinuity, but since I do not believe it is possible to experience ego death, I think that there is continuity in experience when one's sense of self transforms (though one may certainly conceptualize this transformation as being a death of sorts).

TLDR: "Ego death" is a term that is often inflated in its importance and rarity by some hallucinogenic drug users to suggest that "experiencing ego death" is synonymous with "enlightenment."  Really, it is impossible to experience anything without an ego, so one cannot experience ego death.  Those who suggest that "ego death" is some kind of rare, supremely important occurrence are clearly overlooking the fact that a human's ego undergoes transformations on a regular basis, either because of falling asleep (when you dream, your ego can be very different), life events (some events in one's life alter one's sense of self, some more profoundly than other events - for example, getting married or turning 30 can greatly alter one's ego) or due to the normal action of hallucinogenic - and other - drugs (hallucinogens alter your sense of self anyway).

You have no choice in the matter.  Your ego undergoes transformations on a regular basis and taking a hallucinogen will cause it no matter what.  Those who talk about "ego death" as some kind of ultimate mystical experience are thoughtlessly regurgitating the nonsense that people like Tim Leary wrote.

I've thought about what many refer to as "ego death" and some of the experiences seem to describe a sensation of transcendance over one's normal concept of one's self.  Some describe it as a profound awareness of the fact that their idea of who and what they are is just an idea and that "they" do not really exist in the sense that they have experienced.  The "I" that we all experience is just a model.  Whether you find this frightening, exciting, profound, or completely obvious is going to depend on you.

Others describe the term in rather cliche ways, like experiencing "white light and complete transcendance."


--------------------
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Offlinehealing
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Loonery]
    #14077863 - 03/06/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No, ego death is a loss of self. It doesn't feel like anything, you do not sense anything, your self is not present to make experience impossible. It's like you are dead for a time. But there is a sensation that one experiences before and after the death itself.

Those experiences differ from one person to the next, but the realization that is at the root of ego death is always the same. It is a realization that one does not in fact exist, that our universe is an illusion. That realization can be enlightening and life changing, depending on the individuals personality.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.


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Offlinequebus
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Loonery]
    #14077871 - 03/06/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't done it but it's a goal.  The ego will fight this (death) and therein lies the conflict and pain.  Go in to that trip prepared by reading about it.

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OfflineNlightN
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Registered: 03/06/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14077917 - 03/06/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

its like everything, literally everything is you

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Offlinerickjamez20
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Registered: 03/06/11
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Loonery]
    #14078277 - 03/06/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thanks for putting it into perspective for me


--------------------
http://iacopoapps.appspot.com/hopalongwebgl/ https://www.outpan.com/app/44bdd9869c/interactive-fluid-simulation - If you're tripping click here. Thank me later.
Every single person deserves a psychedelic experience, make it happen. :smile:

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Invisiblejustaguy
Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2,404
Loc: Flag
Re: Ego death. [Re: rickjamez20]
    #14078748 - 03/06/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Having an ego death via LSD is refreshing


--------------------

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OfflineLiquidDripDrops
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Registered: 01/31/11
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Re: Ego death. [Re: justaguy]
    #14079163 - 03/07/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ego death is awesome especially if you are in your late twenties or late 50's as it will help you return to your true self; aswell as help you remove any excess baggage that may be preventing you from living to your fullest capicity,  good luck and happy journeys!!!!

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OfflineAzure Essence
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Re: Ego death. [Re: LiquidDripDrops]
    #14079175 - 03/07/11 12:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I idefinitely think an ego death every 4 or so months is what makes us healthy happy indivuduals. it is an extremely intimate, trancendant, cleansing experience.

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Offlineiluvfungi
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Azure Essence]
    #14079306 - 03/07/11 01:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

My experience was after I let my ego go, I held myself in a ball like a new born child. Not frightening, but the separation is very strange. Feels like your a baby or something, since you've had that ego attached to you since you were born; at least for me.

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Invisiblemillzy
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Registered: 05/12/10
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Re: Ego death. [Re: iluvfungi]
    #14079800 - 03/07/11 07:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ego death is not a loss of self, it is the realization of self - the ground upon which your very being sits - through the temporary dissolving of the ego. it's a very strange feeling, but it's not unpleasant. i'd be lying though if i said that it doesn't creep me out just a little bit when it happens.

i've been meaning to say this for a bit on here, but some of you guys really need to be careful with this stuff. for example, i see kids on here playing around with ayahuasca like it's a toy. it's not a joke, and you will realize that when you get precisely what you're asking for. i'm not directing that at anyone in particular in this thread, but it's a little disconcerting to me how some people, who clearly have very limited experience with psychedelics, treat them with absolutely no respect imo.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (03/07/11 07:00 AM)

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OfflineThemBones
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Re: Ego death. [Re: millzy]
    #14079901 - 03/07/11 07:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ego death is not a loss of self, it is the realization of self - the ground upon which your very being sits - through the temporary dissolving of the ego. it's a very strange feeling, but it's not unpleasant. i'd be lying though if i said that it doesn't creep me out just a little bit when it happens.




^ Good description.  For me, shrooms are euphoric and just awesome in general. However, ego death is weird. It's much stranger than anything you experience normally.  It's not bad though, not at all.

You know that you're thinking, and you are reading this, and you know you're in whatever mood you're in.  When ego death happens, that "you" goes away completely.  You're left with no internal dialogue.  When it first happened to me, I felt as if my ego left my body and slowly drifted away: I could still hear it (me) chattering away for a while, but it was no longer the me that was experiencing the world.  I was then left with only what I sensed.  Very strange, and also a very positive experience for me.

I certainly wasn't trying to get it, it just happened.  I didn't think 3 grams would do that ... but I didn't use a scale either, so I had it coming :lol:  Just a warning, some people do find losing the ego terrifying.  Also, it's not something you want to do in a social setting at all.  Maybe with a trusted trip sitter, or even alone would be better (imho).  If you go for it, don't try to fight it, and it'll be fine.

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OfflineManicman
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Re: Ego death. [Re: ThemBones]
    #14080316 - 03/07/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know. The ego death everyone seems to talk about here is ego loss or ego dissolution.
There is another ego death/rebirth. This is what I am working towards in my trips. Stanislav Grof describes it as "total annihilation on ever imaginable level." Followed by being stuck by a blinding white light and forgiveness redemption and liberation.
I've also heard of a guy witnessing himself being killed and resurrected.
This is the scariest experience I think a human being can have, and I wish I didn't have to go through with it but apparently I do.

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Manicman]
    #14081907 - 03/07/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

that's pretty much ego death. not sure about someone witnessing their own death but your description lines up with mine at least.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ego death. [Re: Loonery]
    #14081971 - 03/07/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Loonery said:
Quote:

I've read about ego death ...




Consider your source.  Where did you read about it?  I have found that a lot of discussion about the ego and "ego death" which I have seen online involves almost thoughtless regurgitation of the ideas of the 'psychedelic philosophers' from the 1960s like Tim Leary.  In many of the discussions I've seen and been involved with regarding "ego death," it seems to me that some don't even think the most basic aspects of the term through and just repeat what the psychedelic fathers of the 1960s said and what some of their online contemporaries have said.

The first important thing to do is define the ego.  What is the ego?  The ego is one's sense of self.  That means that the ego is a model: it is a model of the self.  So, if the ego is a model of the self, that also means that it is only a conceptual idea.  The ego is the "virtual self" that one experiences.  The ego only exists during experience. 

It surprises me that many do not seem to find this plainly obvious.  If the ego is one's SENSE of self then it is something to be sensed.  That is, the ego is something which is experienced.

The ego only 'exists' during experience but it is also a neccessary part of experience.  Conscious experience involves sensing the information received by one's senses.  That is, experience is the sensing of the world in relation to one's self.  Experience requires a sense of self.  Experience requires that a self be present in order to have experiences.  Without a sense of self, there is no experience.

There is no such thing as experiencing ego death.  You can experience profound changes in your ego and I suppose you could say that "ego death" is just a colloquial term that is intended to refer to profound changes in one's sense of self.  I'd call that "ego transformation" and it is quite common on hallucinogens.

Quote:

and i have heard negative and positive things about it




In my rather arrogant opinion, most of what you heard is poorly thought out idealistic nonsense.

One's sense of self, or one's model of self, undergoes radical transformations while on LSD, mescaline, psilocin, ketamine, DXM, etc.  All of these drugs commonly produce radical transformations in one's ego.  You can react to these experiences in any way you can imagine.  You can find the transformations frightening (perhaps because you've suddenly started to become convinced that you are evil or something).  You can find them bizarre and confusing (because previously integrated cognitive functions now seem to be totally disconnected, as though they belong to entirely separate beings - for example, on dissociatives, my "verbal-conceptual mind" which is the "I" that 'thinks in words' becomes a totally separate entity from the "I" that physically exists and that ingested the drug - this leads to the rather intense and strange sensation that my thoughts are being thought by one entity who is beaming the thoughts through space to the entirely separate entity who is on the planet Earth tripping).  You can find ego transformations positive and illuminating (it may suddenly seem profound to realize that your whole idea and understanding of yourself is just a model: just your brain's best guess). 

Ego transformations are neither inherently positive or negative, in my opinion.  How you react to them is variable.

Quote:

is it worth a try to go for ego death?




No, it's a bullshit term that literally means you stop experiencing (i.e. you are unconscious).  "Ego death" is not synonymous with "enlightenment" and does not mean that you suddenly transcend everything and understand the secret of the universe.  It is not some ultimate state of enlightenment.  It is just the total destruction of your sense of self, which simply means that you are no longer capable of experiencing (because experiences have to happen to something - to a self).

I've found that my point of view can really offend hallucinogenic drug users and I think this is because many users invest a lot in their idealism about ego death and the ability of these drugs to lead to enlightenment or to help produce insights.  It's fine if others disagree, but I'd appreciate it if anyone who disagrees offered logical explanations for disagreeing instead of the typical responses that I'm used to getting when I offend the sensibilities of people who use psychedelics for mystical reasons (those typical responses usually just involve people telling me that I must be stupid if I don't believe in ego death in the way it's conceptualized by Tim Leary).

As for transformation of the ego, you simply don't have a choice.  If you take a hallucinogenic drug, then your sense of self is going to be altered no matter what.

Another way to understand the term "ego death" is to see it merely as being a transformation in one's ego: it is the "death" of one's sense of self and the rebirth into a new sense of self.  This is usually not what psychedelic drug users mean by "ego death" (because they often specifically refer to "experiencing ego death" and all of the mystical results of such an experience).  Usually, "ego death" in this sense is seen as a result of "experiencing ego death" because when one's old ego dies, it is replaced by a new ego.  I think that this kind of "ego death" is problematic because one's sense of self is by no means ever static.  Your sense of self can always change, whether you're on hallucinogens or not (it changes when you dream but it also changes when something happens to cause yourself to understand yourself differently).  I prefer the term "ego transformation" because "ego death" implies discontinuity, but since I do not believe it is possible to experience ego death, I think that there is continuity in experience when one's sense of self transforms (though one may certainly conceptualize this transformation as being a death of sorts).

TLDR: "Ego death" is a term that is often inflated in its importance and rarity by some hallucinogenic drug users to suggest that "experiencing ego death" is synonymous with "enlightenment."  Really, it is impossible to experience anything without an ego, so one cannot experience ego death.  Those who suggest that "ego death" is some kind of rare, supremely important occurrence are clearly overlooking the fact that a human's ego undergoes transformations on a regular basis, either because of falling asleep (when you dream, your ego can be very different), life events (some events in one's life alter one's sense of self, some more profoundly than other events - for example, getting married or turning 30 can greatly alter one's ego) or due to the normal action of hallucinogenic - and other - drugs (hallucinogens alter your sense of self anyway).

You have no choice in the matter.  Your ego undergoes transformations on a regular basis and taking a hallucinogen will cause it no matter what.  Those who talk about "ego death" as some kind of ultimate mystical experience are thoughtlessly regurgitating the nonsense that people like Tim Leary wrote.

I've thought about what many refer to as "ego death" and some of the experiences seem to describe a sensation of transcendance over one's normal concept of one's self.  Some describe it as a profound awareness of the fact that their idea of who and what they are is just an idea and that "they" do not really exist in the sense that they have experienced.  The "I" that we all experience is just a model.  Whether you find this frightening, exciting, profound, or completely obvious is going to depend on you.

Others describe the term in rather cliche ways, like experiencing "white light and complete transcendance."




This post is WAY too long, man. Even the TL;DR is long-winded. Get to work on your concision. It's hard for me to muster the enthusiasm to read a thesis statement about why you think the term "ego death" is bullshit.

I think people call it "ego death" because many people feel they are dying and "transcending" to some sort of afterlife-type higher plane during the experience. The experience is literally like going to an alternate dimension with its own completely different laws of physics, which do not allow for the possession of a body, or for exclusive identification with any physical object. The mind becomes incapable of distinguishing anything from anything else, all forms of dualism collapse, and the universe is experienced as a cosmic unity, which for me manifested as a white ray of light which emanated the experiences I call everyday life.

This is not shit I'm making up based on a musty book I read from the 60's, it's shit that I have personally experienced on DMT. If you haven't experienced this type of trip then please do not go around telling people they can't.

I prefer to avoid using the phrase "ego death" as well because a lot of people use it without understanding what it is referring to, but I find it useful nonetheless. When I first experienced it, I literally thought that "I," as an individual, had died, and that I was moving on to a new level of existence. I would say that "ego death" is the psychedelic experience, and psychedelic experiences which do not involve ego-death generally reflect it to some incomplete extent.

Any self-proclaimed psychedelic enthusiast must experience it someday, but I wouldn't rush into it. I'd wait until you can get a good dose of DMT. :thumbup:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (03/07/11 04:04 PM)

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