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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deranger]
    #14073739 - 03/06/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

How can language make things appear to be separate?




Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...


Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...


My idea of a tree is not actually itself? :wtf:


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.


How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074274 - 03/06/11 04:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How could you distinguish between anything without knowledge? You couldn't.
Quote:


How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?




As I keep saying it's a subjective thing.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14074282 - 03/06/11 04:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
How could you distinguish between anything without knowledge? You couldn't.


I suppose you're right, depending on what you mean by knowledege; what's your point?


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?




As I keep saying it's a subjective thing.


What's this supposed to mean? :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074290 - 03/06/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

My point is prior to knowledge everything is one. I have no other point.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14074329 - 03/06/11 05:27 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How is everything one prior to knowledge? And if things become separated after knowledge, how does this mean that separation is illusory?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074402 - 03/06/11 06:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

My idea of a tree is not actually itself?




No. It is your idea of the tree.

Quote:

How is everything one prior to knowledge?




Everything is made up of elements. Elements are all made up of the same basic particles.

It's basic high-school chemistry dude...

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14074463 - 03/06/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

My idea of a tree is not actually itself?




No. It is your idea of the tree.


I don't think you understood me correctly: when I say 'itself', I am referring to my idea of the tree, not a physical tree. Nowhere in that sentence is there an indication that I was referring to a physical tree, or anything else besides my idea of the the tree; you really need to improve on your reading comprehension. :imslow:


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

How is everything one prior to knowledge?




Everything is made up of elements. Elements are all made up of the same basic particles.

It's basic high-school chemistry dude...


How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked? :lol:


Also, did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/06/11 07:21 AM)

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074492 - 03/06/11 07:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Grapefruit said that
Quote:

your idea of a tree is not what it actually is




to which you replied
Quote:

My idea of a tree is not actually itself?




Grapefruit was saying "your idea of a tree is not a tree".

And now you say that he was saying "your idea of a tree is not your idea of a tree". Well I'm not sure who's having problem with comprehension here. But I surely am having trouble comprehending your irregularities. 

Quote:

did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?




Oh sorry did I say something you don't like?

Quote:

How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?




You asked how everything was ONE. I told you that everything is made from the same basic particles... how much clearer do you want me to make it?

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Offlinen.dangerously
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14074536 - 03/06/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

A subjective response proves nothing. .
[not necessarily directed at durantz.. just too lazy to figure out who exactly provoked that response from me]

All atoms come from the same energy. That's how everything is 'one'. Matter and energy are one-in-the-same, just different manifestations.

What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: n.dangerously]
    #14074556 - 03/06/11 08:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A subjective response proves nothing




I think most of us agree with you on that one.

Quote:

What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .




Some people have problems accepting that they are not separate.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14074583 - 03/06/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Grapefruit said that
Quote:

your idea of a tree is not what it actually is




to which you replied
Quote:

My idea of a tree is not actually itself?




Grapefruit was saying "your idea of a tree is not a tree".


That's what I wanted to clarify.


Quote:

durantz said:
And now you say that he was saying "your idea of a tree is not your idea of a tree". Well I'm not sure who's having problem with comprehension here. But I surely am having trouble comprehending your irregularities.


I'm not saying he said that, so it's still quite clear who's having reading comprehension problems. :grin:

What "irregularities" are you talking about?


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?




Oh sorry did I say something you don't like?


No, I just wanted his answer to the question is all.


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?




You asked how everything was ONE.


No I didn't, this was my question:

How is everything one prior to knowledge?


He was saying that, prior to knowledge, everything is one, and that after knowledge, the "illusion" of separation forms; this is why I wanted his response, I knew you weren't following along with our discussion, which you always seem to have a problem doing. You just wanted to troll me.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: n.dangerously]
    #14074598 - 03/06/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

n.dangerously said:
A subjective response proves nothing. .
[not necessarily directed at durantz.. just too lazy to figure out who exactly provoked that response from me]


It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it sure can.


Quote:

n.dangerously said:
All atoms come from the same energy. That's how everything is 'one'. Matter and energy are one-in-the-same, just different manifestations.

What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .


I don't know about anyone else, but I'm only arguing against the position that separateness is an illusion; I understand what you're saying, and contend that both separateness and oneness are real.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074602 - 03/06/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

no I was following along just fine. I'm sorry if I use abbreviated quotes in here. I should have known you are more concerned with semantics by now.

After knowledge the illusion of separation occurs because humans want to believe in it... Just as you want to believe in it.

I'm following along quite well.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
    #14074632 - 03/06/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
I'm sorry if I use abbreviated quotes in here. I should have known you are more concerned with semantics by now.


There's a 'Quote' function, you know, it's not very hard to use...


Quote:

durantz said:
After knowledge the illusion of separation occurs because humans want to believe in it...


And we go back to this..can you prove that separation is illusory? Why would knowledge cause people to want to believe in the illusion of separation?


Quote:

durantz said:
Just as you want to believe in it.


Not true, I believe that the universe is one giant process that contains several processes.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinen.dangerously
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074639 - 03/06/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?




You asked how everything was ONE.


No I didn't, this was my question:

How is everything one prior to knowledge?


He was saying that, prior to knowledge, everything is one, and that after knowledge, the "illusion" of separation forms; this is why I wanted his response, I knew you weren't following along with our discussion, which you always seem to have a problem doing. You just wanted to troll me.




Oh, the power of the comma. . .

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Offlinen.dangerously
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: n.dangerously]
    #14074645 - 03/06/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

When it comes to 'oneness' or 'separateness':

Maybe it's not either/or, but both. .

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: n.dangerously]
    #14074662 - 03/06/11 08:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
    #14074914 - 03/06/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What I'm mean by it's a subjective thing is that it's an experience that has no basis in objective reality. Basically if you dropped all your compulsive neurotic labelling of reality then all that would be left would be pure experience with no layer of assumption over it. Whether this is possible or not is another matter. If it were possible however then there would be no way to distinguish between things coming from that position, knowledge would still distinguish but that position would be seperate from knowledge and so it wouldn't.

For example, if you ask me "are things seperate or one objectively" I will tell you what my knowledge tells me (taken from science etc.) but I have no way to be 100% certain of what is going on objectively so as to how I experience things beyond that knowledge from moment to moment i am only seeing one thing which is pure experience. IMO the path of enlightenment is one of trying to see beyond knowledge. Not trying to drop knowledge but to stop making any attempt to label what is being experienced. This is why people say as soon as you proclaim you are enlightened you are not, because you have already labelled things, this is why they say it is a "stateless state".

It is important to note when I say pure experience I do not meant fully accurate seeing or true sight, I just mean that the sight is not labelled but seen clearly as subjective and therefore unknown.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
    #14074945 - 03/06/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

PsylioSynethesis said:
Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'





Just like the post you are making now?




"Just like the post you are making now? "





How dare you!:mad2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander]
    #14081801 - 03/07/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

PsylioSynethesis said:
Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'





Just like the post you are making now?




"Just like the post you are making now? "





How dare you!:mad2:




:shrug:


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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