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durantz
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Registered: 05/09/09
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074241 - 03/06/11 04:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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again if this were not so, then we wouldn't be able to navigate/manipulate our environment so successfully.
How simplistic a view. Tell me does this also apply to a blind man?
If we were to believe the blind man he would tell us that the world is all black. Yet he manages to navigate the world using other means. Does this mean his vision is accurate?
and if he is still able to navigate without vision then does that mean that vision is unnecessary?
Oh and yes I wanted you to admit that 'significant degree' is arbitrary. meaning that you have nothing to base your claims upon. Glad you could finally get there.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074250 - 03/06/11 04:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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again if this were not so, then we wouldn't be able to navigate/manipulate our environment so successfully.
How simplistic a view. Tell me does this also apply to a blind man?
A blind man is able to navigate only with the help of sighted people; people who can see need to produce his walking cane, people who can see need to work at the place that trains seeing-eye dogs, and people who can see need to defend him against crime (police officers); he would not survive without sighted people.
Do you honestly believe that a blind man can navigate and manipulate his environment successfully?
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durantz said: If we were to believe the blind man he would tell us that the world is all black.
How do you know that blind people only see black?
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durantz said: Yet he manages to navigate the world using other means. Does this mean his vision is accurate?
Can he navigate it successfully, without the aid of sighted people? Can he manipulate it successfully, without the aid of sighted people?
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durantz said: and if he is still able to navigate without vision then does that mean that vision is unnecessary?
No, because he wouldn't be able to navigate without vision without the help of sighted people.
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durantz said: Oh and yes I wanted you to admit that 'significant degree' is arbitrary. meaning that you have nothing to base your claims upon. Glad you could finally get there.
, why would that mean that I have nothing to base my claims upon?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/06/11 04:30 AM)
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durantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074258 - 03/06/11 04:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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why would that mean that I have nothing to base my claims upon?
This is why I cannot communicate with you.
Arbitrary means; "founded on or subject to personal whims, prejudices, etc; capricious"
So you are basing your claim on your personal whims... wow that's some concrete evidence right there!
forgive me for asking but is your native language English?
Ofcourse a blind man can navigate without assistance... and it would depend on his surroundings. On a most basic level he would use his other senses to compensate. So again I ask you "does this make vision unnecessary?"
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How do you know that blind people only see black?
oooooo another one of your 'give me proof questions'. Does a person with no eyes see? Are you serious about this question dude?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074272 - 03/06/11 04:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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why would that mean that I have nothing to base my claims upon?
This is why I cannot communicate with you.
Arbitrary means; "founded on or subject to personal whims, prejudices, etc; capricious"
So you are basing your claim on your personal whims... wow that's some concrete evidence right there!
What definitions are not founded on or subject to personal whims, prejudices, etc.? My definition for "significant-degree" was arbitrary, sure, but that does not mean that it does not exist; for example, the demarcation of life from death is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
There is a such thing as a "significant degree" in the way that I arbitrarily defined it, so I don't see your point in mentioning that it's arbitrary, as if that somehow invalidates something.
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durantz said: forgive me for asking but is your native language English?
Yes it is, what makes you think it isn't? I'm not the one failing to put spaces between words and capitalize properly. 
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durantz said: Ofcourse a blind man can navigate without assistance... and it would depend on his surroundings.
He could not navigate successfully.
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durantz said: On a most basic level he would use his other senses to compensate. So again I ask you "does this make vision unnecessary?"
His other senses would not be sufficient enough to help him navigate successfully; if there are no sighted people to assist him, either directly or indirectly, how would he sustain himself? How would he seek out sources of food and water? Protect himself against danger?
Blind people are only able to survive because of the help they receive from sighted people, without sighted people they'd be virtually helpless.
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durantz said:
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How do you know that blind people only see black?
oooooo another one of your 'give me proof questions'. Does a person with no eyes see? Are you serious about this question dude?
Are you serious? If a person with no eyes can't see, then what makes you think that they see black?  
It's more likely that they don't see anything at all than it is that they see black.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/06/11 04:56 AM)
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durantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074285 - 03/06/11 04:55 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's more likely that they don't see anything at all than it is that they see black.
Are you serious? Dude are you really going to say that? Black is the absence of colour... black is nothing!
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What definitions are not founded on or subject to personal whims, prejudices, etc.? My definition for "significant-degree" was arbitrary, sure, but that does not mean that it does not exist; for example, the demarcation of life from death is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Ok so it's fine for you to base your claims on personal whims but when I say something I need to provide empirical data to support it... wow double standards?
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successfully.]/quote]
another arbitrary measurement of yours... wow interesting I'm noticing a pattern here.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074320 - 03/06/11 05:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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It's more likely that they don't see anything at all than it is that they see black.
Are you serious? Dude are you really going to say that? Black is the absence of colour... black is nothing!
Yet when I see black, I'm looking at something, I am perceiving blackness; we experience blackness as an absence of color/light because we are able to see. Blind people cannot experience any sort of visual perception, and as blackness is a visual perception, I think it makes sense to assume that blind people don't see blackness.
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durantz said:
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What definitions are not founded on or subject to personal whims, prejudices, etc.? My definition for "significant-degree" was arbitrary, sure, but that does not mean that it does not exist; for example, the demarcation of life from death is arbitrary, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Ok so it's fine for you to base your claims on personal whims...
It was one claim that included on an arbitrary definition--what was it about that definition that confused you so much? Can you not imagine what 'significant-degree' might mean? How do you figure my arbitrary definition of that term somehow invalidates my argument? Like any definition, it was a description of an actual extant phenomenon, so I don't see where the problem lies.
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durantz said: but when I say something I need to provide empirical data to support it... wow double standards?
Arbitrary definitions for terms are used all the time amongst scientists, and eventually some of them become mainstream--I don't understand why you believe that my use of my arbitrary definition of the term 'significant-degree' in my argument somehow necessarily means that it's not an empirical argument.
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durantz said: another arbitrary measurement of yours... wow interesting I'm noticing a pattern here.
I know you have a tough time keeping up, so I guess I have to remind you that this particular discussion about blind people sprang from this statement: ...again if this were not so, then we wouldn't be able to navigate/manipulate our environment so successfully.
So yeah, we've been discussing this arbitrary measurement of mine for a bit now, it's quite strange that you suddenly have a problem with it now.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/06/11 05:30 AM)
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durantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074375 - 03/06/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yet when I see black, I'm looking at something, I am perceiving blackness; we experience blackness as an absence of color/light because we are able to see. Blind people cannot experience any sort of visual perception, and as blackness is a visual perception, I think it makes sense to assume that blind people don't see blackness.
you are 100% wrong on this. Blackness it not perception unless there truly is nothing there. But then that would mean you are perceiving nothing which is impossible. Perception requires that there be something which is perceived.
Blackness is not visual perception. Blackness is nothing. It is the absence of electro-magnetic energy. You do not perceive nothing.
I'm very interested to understand where you are getting this deluded understanding of perception from? Who is teaching you these things? Where are you reading this stuff? Please I BEG YOU TO SHOW ME WHERE YOU GET THIS INFORMATION FROM!!!
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Can you not imagine what 'significant-degree' might mean?
Yes I can imagine this. but at the same time I can imagine that my definition would differ from yours. So I was asking you to provide a definition of this so we could determine if we have similar understandings of the concept 'significant degree'.
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Arbitrary definitions for terms are used all the time amongst scientists,
PLease provide an example of this because I do not agree with you. My understanding is that scientists base their definitions on empirical data. You may be referring to pseudo-science which no self-respecting scientist would have anything to do with.
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we've been discussing this arbitrary measurement of mine for a bit now
I would like to stop discussing your arbitrary viewpoint and actually get down to discussing the facts.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074434 - 03/06/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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Yet when I see black, I'm looking at something, I am perceiving blackness; we experience blackness as an absence of color/light because we are able to see. Blind people cannot experience any sort of visual perception, and as blackness is a visual perception, I think it makes sense to assume that blind people don't see blackness.
you are 100% wrong on this. Blackness it not perception unless there truly is nothing there.
What?
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durantz said: But then that would mean you are perceiving nothing which is impossible. Perception requires that there be something which is perceived.
Yeah, and blackness is something that is perceived.
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durantz said: Blackness is not visual perception. Blackness is nothing. It is the absence of electro-magnetic energy. You do not perceive nothing.
Blackness is a visual perception, I know this because I am perceiving blackness right now. Blackness may be the absence of EM radiation, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it is nothing; if it were nothing, I wouldn't be able to perceive it and describe it.
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durantz said: I'm very interested to understand where you are getting this deluded understanding of perception from? Who is teaching you these things? Where are you reading this stuff? Please I BEG YOU TO SHOW ME WHERE YOU GET THIS INFORMATION FROM!!!
There's nothing deluded about my understanding of perception.
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durantz said:
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Can you not imagine what 'significant-degree' might mean?
Yes I can imagine this. but at the same time I can imagine that my definition would differ from yours. So I was asking you to provide a definition of this so we could determine if we have similar understandings of the concept 'significant degree'.
And I was thinking that yours wouldn't differ too much from mine, since most sensible people have the same general idea of 'significant degree" is; in retrospect, it's quite strange that you asked me to provide a definition in the first place...
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durantz said:
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Arbitrary definitions for terms are used all the time amongst scientists,
PLease provide an example of this because I do not agree with you. My understanding is that scientists base their definitions on empirical data.
Why do you think that arbitrary definitions cannot be based on empirical data? The demarcation of life from death is arbitrary, but it's based on empirical data.
I guess an example would be a group of mathematicians who come up with arbitrary meanings for certain symbols in order to solve certain problems, or maybe even create a new branch of mathematics.
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durantz said: You may be referring to pseudo-science which no self-respecting scientist would have anything to do with.
Nah I'm not talking about that shit.
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durantz said:
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we've been discussing this arbitrary measurement of mine for a bit now
I would like to stop discussing your arbitrary viewpoint and actually get down to discussing the facts.
I used my arbitrary viewpoint to assist me in expressing a certain phenomenon; most people would think it's common sense that human perception is in accordance with the "actual state or conditions" to a significant degree, and that humans wouldn't be able to function properly if it weren't.
How do you define 'significant degree', and why do you think that human perception is not in accordance with the "actual state or conditions" to such a degree? Do you have any evidence?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid] 1
#14074480 - 03/06/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sorry dude but you really have totally lost me here...
You ask questions which make no sense.
I have asked you to provide me with links to the readings your basing your argument on but you will not humour me. I know this is because you have based your understanding on no peer reviewed information. From the way you toss around arbitrary meanings I know that you have no understanding of what other people who spend their lives researching perception have to say on the subject matter.
It's impossible to argue with the ignorant... and you don't actually want to learn anything which makes it even harder than impossible.
Until someone else actually steps into this debate and offers their honest opinion on both of our arguments then I will not debate this further.
your spouting total delusions about being able to percieve blackness. I'm sorry to break it to you dude but perceiving black is impossible. you can't even see black because there is nothing there to be seen.
You are obviously getting the object and colour confused. You are failing to see a distinction between shape and colour. Sure you can see a black object but you are actually seeing it's shape and texture. You are not seeing it's blackness.
go back to your idea of using the senses to navigate successfully through the environment. Now put yourself into a vacuum without light. What purpose would your senses serve in that situation? They wouldn't even work.
I suppose you'll next be telling me you can hear the absence of sound vibrations. Or you can smell the absence of fat soluble particles. Or that you can feel the absence of pressure on your skin. Or maybe you can taste the absence of taste?
You must be one special dude!!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074568 - 03/06/11 08:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said: Sorry dude but you really have totally lost me here...
You ask questions which make no sense.
I only asked you three questions, and they were all at the end of my post; if you were truly serious about debating, then you would address each of my responses individually, like what I'm doing with you, so it's pretty apparent to me that you're not really here to debate.
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durantz said: I have asked you to provide me with links to the readings your basing your argument on but you will not humour me. I know this is because you have based your understanding on no peer reviewed information.
You asked me where I'm getting my "deluded misunderstanding of perception" from, and I told you that my understanding of perception is not deluded, because it isn't. You failed to address my rebuttal to your claim that my understanding of perception is deluded; if you still want the link, I'll give you one once you address those rebuttals.
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durantz said: From the way you toss around arbitrary meanings I know that you have no understanding of what other people who spend their lives researching perception have to say on the subject matter.
Wow, I can't believe this, you actually think that you can tell that I have no understanding of what those people have to say on the subject matter just because I used the term 'significant degree'? That's fucking retarded, man. 
Also, this comment is highly irrelevant to the discussion, and just seems more like a personal attack than a contribution.
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durantz said: It's impossible to argue with the ignorant... and you don't actually want to learn anything which makes it even harder than impossible.
Ah, ad hominem, the last resort people who have no debate skills use in defense of their weak arguments. 
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durantz said: Until someone else actually steps into this debate and offers their honest opinion on both of our arguments then I will not debate this further.
Are you that insecure about your position? 
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durantz said: your spouting total delusions about being able to percieve blackness.
, delusions?
You were the one who was saying earlier that blind people see black; it's embarrassing to see how difficult it is for you to keep up with your own positions.

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durantz said: I'm sorry to break it to you dude but perceiving black is impossible. you can't even see black because there is nothing there to be seen.
Sure, but blind people see blackness. 
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durantz said: You are obviously getting the object and colour confused. You are failing to see a distinction between shape and colour. Sure you can see a black object but you are actually seeing it's shape and texture. You are not seeing it's blackness.
The fact of the matter is I see/perceive black, the shape of the object is irrelevant. An object doesn't even have to be involved, I can close my eyes in a dark room and perceive total blackness.
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durantz said: go back to your idea of using the senses to navigate successfully through the environment. Now put yourself into a vacuum without light. What purpose would your senses serve in that situation? They wouldn't even work.
You'd still be able to feel the space-suit on your skin, and the warmth of your body.
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durantz said: I suppose you'll next be telling me you can hear the absence of sound vibrations. Or you can smell the absence of fat soluble particles. Or that you can feel the absence of pressure on your skin. Or maybe you can taste the absence of taste?
No, I can't do any of that, but I can definitely perceive at least partial darkness; even if darkness is the absence of light, it doesn't mean that it can't be perceivable. It's possible that the brain fills in gaps in the visual field that lack light with what we call "darkness".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074576 - 03/06/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Until someone else actually steps into this debate and offers their honest opinion on both of our arguments then I will not debate this further.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
#14074610 - 03/06/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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durantz said: If we were to believe the blind man he would tell us that the world is all black.
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durantz said: your spouting total delusions about being able to percieve blackness. I'm sorry to break it to you dude but perceiving black is impossible. you can't even see black because there is nothing there to be seen.
 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Kickle
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
#14074674 - 03/06/11 08:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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 just skimming these posts seriously hurt my eyes good work on making the some of the ugliest posts ever Poid
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Kickle] 1
#14074684 - 03/06/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey, mine were much more organized than his.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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