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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14068227 - 03/04/11 08:46 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Well our senses are perceptions; I don't see what's so confusing about the fact that perceptions are real, and not illusory.




Ah this is where your incorrect understanding is stemming from.

Senses ARE NOT perceptions.


perception:

3a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation <color perception>
b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience




Quote:

durantz said:
Senses are your windows to the world.


You may be talking about sense organs.


Quote:

durantz said:
Once the incoming sense data enters the neural pathways many, many things happen before they are finally perceived.


So?


Quote:

durantz said:
your perception is the translation of what your senses are detecting.


It would make more sense to say that perception is the translation of what your sense organs are detecting since, by definition, perceptions are merely sensations of various types.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14068265 - 03/04/11 08:57 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

dude I'm sorry but you are clinging to a false understanding.

That dictionary definition you quoted should show that what I'm saying is correct. I'm not sure how you are interpreting it... It doesn't support your argument.

Really I've done all I can to help you but you still cling to it.

Not sure what else I can do for you??

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14068318 - 03/04/11 09:12 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
That dictionary definition you quoted should show that what I'm saying is correct.


Then why don't you explain how it shows that? You're saying that perceptions are not sensations, and that dictionary definition says that they are sensations.


Quote:

durantz said:
I'm not sure how you are interpreting it... It doesn't support your argument.


This is a debate forum; if you don't think it supports my argument, then why don't you just make a rebuttal that explains how it doesn't support my argument instead of simply saying it's false?

The definition I posted says that perceptions are sensations, and my argument is that perceptions are sensations, so I'm not sure how you figure that it doesn't support my argument. :confused2:


Quote:

durantz said:
Really I've done all I can to help you but you still cling to it.

Not sure what else I can do for you??


Well you can actually debate, instead of just providing mere say-so's. :shrug2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/04/11 09:26 PM)

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14068454 - 03/04/11 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

dude I've said all the facts... you are either choosing not to believe them (tenacity of belief) or you genuinely don't understand what I'm saying.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14068520 - 03/04/11 09:51 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
dude I've said all the facts...


What facts have you said? "Senses ARE NOT perceptions."? "Senses are your windows to the world."? Those are not facts, those are just baseless statements.  You failed to explain what your point was when you said "Once the incoming sense data enters the neural pathways many, many things happen before they are finally perceived.", even after I asked you.

One of your more hilarious sentences was this one: "That dictionary definition you quoted should show that what I'm saying is correct. I'm not sure how you are interpreting it... It doesn't support your argument.". That one is hilarious because you have the nerve to attack the evidence I provided by saying that it doesn't support my argument, while you yourself have failed to support many of your contentions, and mostly provided mere say-so's. :lol:

It would be nice if you could address each of my rebuttals to your claims individually so this debate could go more smoothly, BTW.


Quote:

durantz said:
...you are either choosing not to believe them (tenacity of belief)...


It's called skepticism; I don't just believe anything I read without seeing some convincing evidence for it first.


Quote:

durantz said:
...or you genuinely don't understand what I'm saying.


I kind of understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14068958 - 03/04/11 11:20 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

dude read my posts!! I've provided a lot of back up. some of my posts go into great detail to try and explain things to you which you just ignore. Why should I waste my time any further?

You are misreading that dictionary definition.

Ok and just because I'm being extra patient I will show you just one example of what happens after sense data is recieved. But seriously dude unless you have studied it then don't even try to talk about it because it is very complex. Which is why I said many many things happen. It will take AN EXTREMELY long time for me to write it all down. And seeing as you have chosen to disregard what I've said previously I don't see why I should spend the time to write it all down.

But here is a link to help you get you on your way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray722.png

Now look at that diagram and understand this; at every point (those labeled) the sensory data is processed. So I'm sure you will appreciate that the data is processed MANY, MANY times before it is actually perceived. Or maybe you wont, I really don't know. nor do I particularly care.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14069060 - 03/04/11 11:48 PM (13 years, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
dude read my posts!! I've provided a lot of back up. some of my posts go into great detail to try and explain things to you which you just ignore. Why should I waste my time any further?


I'm not sure exactly which things I've ignored, I'm pretty sure I've addressed each of the points you made in response to me individually.


Quote:

durantz said:
You are misreading that dictionary definition.


You see, this is the type of statement that is just completely useless in a debate, and you keep making them; do you even know what burden of proof is? This is a debate forum, and it's expected that you back up any claims you make with some evidence--if you think I've misread that dictionary definition, then show me where you think I've misinterpreted it.


Quote:

durantz said:
Ok and just because I'm being extra patient I will show you just one example of what happens after sense data is recieved. But seriously dude unless you have studied it then don't even try to talk about it because it is very complex. Which is why I said many many things happen. It will take AN EXTREMELY long time for me to write it all down. And seeing as you have chosen to disregard what I've said previously I don't see why I should spend the time to write it all down.


How did I disregard what you said previously about this process, and what point are you trying to make by mentioning it? Do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore? :hehehe:


Quote:

durantz said:
But here is a link to help you get you on your way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray722.png

Now look at that diagram and understand this; at every point (those labeled) the sensory data is processed. So I'm sure you will appreciate that the data is processed MANY, MANY times before it is actually perceived.


You must be hallucinating, because I never denied that this is true, nor did any of my claims contradict this. :braindamage:


Quote:

durantz said:
Or maybe you wont, I really don't know. nor do I particularly care.


I don't doubt it, you don't seem like you're here to debate at all; it's either that, or you literally don't have much of a clue about what debate actually is. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14069092 - 03/04/11 11:59 PM (13 years, 23 hours ago)

you are right that the debate can get confusing and we may lose sight of the original problem so I'll reinterate the debate as I am seeing it.

You are arguing that sense and perception are synonymous and that perception is reality...

I am arguing that sense is a precursor to perception and that perception is not an accurate understanding of reality.

Is this what we are debating?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14069198 - 03/05/11 12:32 AM (13 years, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
You are arguing that sense and perception are synonymous and that perception is reality...


Well I'm saying that sensations and perceptions are the same thing, and the dictionary definition I provided for 'perception' confirms that this is true; I am not arguing that perception is "reality" (I'm not even sure what you mean by reality here; do you mean "objective reality"), I'm arguing that perceptions aren't illusory, and that they are real.


Quote:

durantz said:
I am arguing that sense is a precursor to perception...


These two definitions seem to support the position that sense and perception are synonymous:

sense:
a : the faculty of perceiving by means of sense organs
3 : conscious awareness or rationality —usually used in plural <finally came to his senses>


...but these two seem to support your position that sense is a precursor to perception:

b : a specialized function or mechanism (as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or touch) by which an animal receives and responds to external or internal stimuli
c : the sensory mechanisms constituting a unit distinct from other functions (as movement or thought)


...so I guess it just depends on which form of the word you're using. :shrug:


Quote:

durantz said:
...and that perception is not an accurate understanding of reality.


I agree that our perception of reality is not accurate in the sense that it doesn't provide us with a complete picture of "objective reality" (assuming there even is such a thing), but I don't think that the limited picture of objective reality that it does provide us with is inaccurate in the sense that it contains much false information (e.g. hallucinations, or any perceptions in the absence of a stimulus); the picture that it provides us is probably fairly accurate IMO, albeit incomplete.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14070533 - 03/05/11 11:40 AM (13 years, 11 hours ago)

You're both right? Kinda?
Haha I dunno, but I think there are only perceptions.


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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: R2-D2]
    #14072146 - 03/05/11 06:13 PM (13 years, 5 hours ago)

Lol dude those dictionary definitions by no means show that the two are synonymous... ok read it very carefully.

That definition is saying that sense is a FACULTY of perceiving. That means that sense is different to perception. A faculty of perceiving means that sense is a power that enables perception. If the two were synonymous then one could not be a faculty of the other.

Also why when I look up 'sense' in the dictionary there isn't the word 'perception' in the list of synonyms?

Quote:

the picture that it provides us is probably fairly accurate IMO,




This depends on your idea of accurate... I don't think it is accurate because I know how limited our senses are. We are only able to process a very small amount of the raw sensory data in the world. So I guess if your idea of accurate is only perceiving a small fraction of what is there then that's up to you.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14072489 - 03/05/11 07:32 PM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

I know that water falling from the sky is rain and
when I leave my house I am outside. Once outside,
the sound of water drops striking the ground is heard,
I can see something falling from the sky and the ground
is wet, and I can feel the drops hitting my skin.
I perceive this event as rain.

My perception of this event is based on the information
provided by my senses and previously know information,
and is only as accurate as the information used.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14072523 - 03/05/11 07:41 PM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

I believe it all to be a coping mechanism,
Whether it's an illusion or not, believe what alleviates your 'suffering'
Everyone has their own way of coping with life.

Edited by giza (03/05/11 07:42 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14073835 - 03/06/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Lol dude those dictionary definitions by no means show that the two are synonymous... ok read it very carefully.

That definition is saying that sense is a FACULTY of perceiving. That means that sense is different to perception.


You mean different than perception? Yeah, I know, but #3 defines 'sense' as being 'conscious awareness'.


Quote:

durantz said:
A faculty of perceiving means that sense is a power that enables perception. If the two were synonymous then one could not be a faculty of the other.


Duh.


Quote:

durantz said:
Also why when I look up 'sense' in the dictionary there isn't the word 'perception' in the list of synonyms?


Why would there have to be? 'Conscious awareness' and 'perception' are the same thing, and the dictionary defines 'sense' as being 'conscious awareness'.


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

the picture that it provides us is probably fairly accurate IMO,




This depends on your idea of accurate... I don't think it is accurate because I know how limited our senses are.


Well like I said, I agree that it is inaccurate in the sense that it is incomplete, but what I'm saying here is that all the information contained within that incomplete picture is probably fairly accurate; our senses can still be accurate even if they're limited.


Quote:

durantz said:
We are only able to process a very small amount of the raw sensory data in the world. So I guess if your idea of accurate is only perceiving a small fraction of what is there then that's up to you.


Again, I agree with you on the point that our senses are inaccurate in the sense that they do not give us a complete picture of the world; I feel like you're having trouble with the concept that senses can be both accurate and limited.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14073858 - 03/06/11 01:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree completely with your arguments for the definitions and it seems that there is no point in us continuing to argue about it cos we are getting nowhere. I think you're terribly misguided but that's neither here nor there.

But you do raise an interesting point which I would like to debate further with you.

Quote:

I feel like you're having trouble with the concept that senses can be both accurate and limited.




I agree that this is possible so I'd like to explore this further with you.

how are we going to define 'accurate'? If we use the dictionary we will find that it means;

"the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact; freedom from error or defect; precision or exactness; correctness."

So according to this definition our perception can not be accurate because it is not 'true' (where 'true' is being in accordance with the actual state or conditions), 'correct' (where 'correct' is conforming to fact or truth; free from error), or 'exact', it is NOT free from error or defect, and it is not 'precise'...

So obviously we can't use the English definition of 'accurate' or your point will not stand. So I guess now it's up to you to explain your personal definition of the word 'accurate' and detail how you came to this definition, providing evidence to support it.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14073898 - 03/06/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
I disagree completely with your arguments for the definitions and it seems that there is no point in us continuing to argue about it cos we are getting nowhere. I think you're terribly misguided but that's neither here nor there.


What exactly do you disagree with? Do you not agree that 'conscious awareness' and 'perception' are the same thing? Are you having trouble understanding that one of the definitions for 'sense' was 'conscious awareness'?

This is all pretty simple, and I can't for the life of me understand how you could possibly be at all confused by any of this. :shrug2:


Usually, when people disagree with something during a debate, they explain what they disagree with and why; you, though, don't feel the need to do this for some reason...:strokebeard:


Quote:

durantz said:
But you do raise an interesting point which I would like to debate further with you.

Quote:

I feel like you're having trouble with the concept that senses can be both accurate and limited.




I agree that this is possible so I'd like to explore this further with you.

how are we going to define 'accurate'? If we use the dictionary we will find that it means;

"the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact; freedom from error or defect; precision or exactness; correctness."

So according to this definition...


Let me provide some definitions from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

accurate:

1: free from error especially as the result of care: <an accurate diagnosis>

2: conforming exactly to truth or to a standard: <providing accurate color>



Quote:

durantz said:
...our perception can not be accurate because it is not 'true' (where 'true' is being in accordance with the actual state or conditions)


What proof do you have to support your claim that our perception is not 'true' (where 'true' is being in accordance with the actual state or conditions)?


Quote:

durantz said:
...'correct' (where 'correct' is conforming to fact or truth; free from error)


What proof do you have to support this claim? BTW, accurate does not necessarily mean totally free from error.


Quote:

durantz said:
...or 'exact', it is NOT free from error or defect, and it is not 'precise'...


Well, I'd agree with this.


Quote:

durantz said:
So obviously we can't use the English definition of 'accurate' or your point will not stand.


No, you just have to provide evidence for your claims regarding perception not being either true or correct.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14073933 - 03/06/11 01:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

dude I just popped a couple of shrooms and your arguments are making less and less sense the more you speak...

It seems like you want to now compare dictionary definitions?! what the hell man are you trying to mess up my brain?

Should we continue the debate on who's dictionary definition is correct?!

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14073969 - 03/06/11 02:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
dude I just popped a couple of shrooms and your arguments are making less and less sense the more you speak...


No, you are just imagining arguments that haven't been made, and missing the points of the ones that are being made. :lol:

:braindamage:


Quote:

durantz said:
It seems like you want to now compare dictionary definitions?! what the hell man are you trying to mess up my brain?


:lol:, no I just provided those definitions because you didn't provide a source for your definitions--I figure it would be better if we worked with definitions that were backed up by a source. :shrug:


Quote:

durantz said:
Should we continue the debate on who's dictionary definition is correct?!


Um, neither of those definitions are incorrect, they are all just different usages of the same term.


I find it amusing that you cop-out so easily--were you going so support the claims you made in your earlier post or not? :waits:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14073988 - 03/06/11 02:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I refuse to debate semantics with you. We gain nothing by doing this.

This debate how just become about the meaning of words. Does it actually help us to understand more about our world? I don't think it does.

I'm not sure what you want me to support?! The words are on the page. did you read them properly? Next you will want me to provide evidence on the meaning of the word 'the' or 'and'...

I'm not going to do this dude.

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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14074017 - 03/06/11 02:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
I refuse to debate semantics with you. We gain nothing by doing this.


:lol:, that's what this debate is about, isn't it? Don't you remember:

You are arguing that sense and perception are synonymous and that perception is reality...

I am arguing that sense is a precursor to perception and that perception is not an accurate understanding of reality.



Quote:

durantz said:
This debate how just become about the meaning of words.


lol, wut? :wutermelon:


Quote:

durantz said:
Does it actually help us to understand more about our world? I don't think it does.


Are you saying that you don't think understanding the meaning of words can help us understand more about the world? :wow:


Quote:

durantz said:
I'm not sure what you want me to support?! The words are on the page. did you read them properly? Next you will want me to provide evidence on the meaning of the word 'the' or 'and'...


:picard:

Are you even reading my posts at all? Have you been on 'shrooms this entire time? :rofl:


You did not answer me when I asked you "What proof do you have to support your claim that our perception is not 'true' (where 'true' is being in accordance with the actual state or conditions)?", or when I asked you to prove that our perception is not correct.



It would be nice if you could keep up, but I suppose that would be too much to ask of you. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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