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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14070442 - 03/05/11 11:15 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

What are defining as a long time?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070478 - 03/05/11 11:26 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

Well, the US is among the oldest political entities on the planet.  Stability in our stratified society has been long lived with respect to other political entities.  Human civilization (farming and domestication) has always been stratified, thats thousands of years.  Other plants, animals and insects have had stratified structures (social or otherwise) that have lasted millions of years.

In fact, I cant think of one species or time where there has ever been non-stratified societies or structure...  ??  Or is there some specific definition of stratification that Im not using?

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14070526 - 03/05/11 11:38 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

The U.S. isn't even 300 years old, what're you talking about? And why does it need to be a political entity?specific (a lot) of human societies are stratified but that doesn't mean that all of them are stratified, and just because that's the way it's been doesn't mean that it's the way it should be.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070565 - 03/05/11 11:48 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

The US is one of the oldest, most stable government and political systems on the planet. 

:themoreyouknow:

As for "the way it should be", I dont believe in a personal god or deity so I dont believe there is any inherent way things should be.  I am also skeptical as to how much influence our range of free will can have with respect to evolution by natural selection. 

If and only if stratified societies can out compete non-stratified ones, we will be stratified.  Humans are stratified.  Hence, stratified societies out compete non-stratified ones.


edit - had to add the only if in there, lest I commit a fallacy :tongue:

Edited by DieCommie (03/05/11 12:03 PM)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14070623 - 03/05/11 12:05 PM (13 years, 2 hours ago)

the Roman Empire still has a couple hundred years on us. Hell the East India Company ran India for longer than the US has been around, what're you talking about?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070640 - 03/05/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 2 hours ago)

You know the Roman Empire isn't on the planet right now right?  ...  Its been gone for either 500 or 1500 years, depending on how you define it.

(Regardless, a specific doesn't negate a generality.  And in this case, the specific corroborates my point on stratified societies.  :lol:)

Edited by DieCommie (03/05/11 12:11 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070654 - 03/05/11 12:12 PM (13 years, 2 hours ago)

Atlantis was a stable Utopia for 2200 years. :yesnod:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14073619 - 03/05/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
idk why I didn't bother posting this earlier, but, Poid, quoting a novel is not evidence for your argument...


Those quotes provided decent hypothetical examples of how/why an unstratified society might become unstable, and of how keeping a portion of the population stupid in order to get them to do menial work might be beneficial for everybody in a Utopia.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
I would really like to see some actual evidence that stratified societies are more stable than egalitarian ones, because I firmly believe that to be absolute bullshit...


I asked you twice already to provide some examples of egalitarian societies that never failed, and you ignored my request both times.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
everything we know about complexity, behavioral theory, conflict theory, functionalist theory (which is bullshit), etc will tell you that a stratified society is less stable.


May you briefly summarize how each of those theories figure that a stratified society is less stable?


Quote:

learningtofly said:
Besides, take a look at this
. The study found income inequality correlated strongly with social problems such as homicide, infant mortality, obesity, teenage pregnancies, emotional depression and prison population. For example, countries such as Japan, Finland and Norway scored highly in social well-being and income equality, while countries such as the United States and United Kingdom scored low in both.
- study


Correlation is not causation.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
So how do egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) societies not fail then?


I'm not quite sure what you mean, what egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) society has not failed?

Are you asking me what egalitarian societies must do in order not to fail?


yes


I'm not really sure. :shrug:


Quote:

learningtofly said:
So? What does brave new world, which is a DYSTOPIA by the way...


That's a matter of perspective.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
...have to do with anything? That is just one example of a -topia, it doesn't mean that all utopian societies have to be built on happiness.


A utopia is an ideal community or society possessing a perfect socio-politico-legal system; you don't think that happiness is ideal for all humans? :wtf:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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