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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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What do you mean? That only feelings can describe it?
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: giza]
#14068484 - 03/04/11 09:45 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago) |
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No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
#14069415 - 03/05/11 01:54 AM (13 years, 13 hours ago) |
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I have never asked that of another human being, but I have heard/read it being offered.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher] 1
#14069474 - 03/05/11 02:23 AM (13 years, 12 hours ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Damn, you caught me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
#14070324 - 03/05/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't understand why a decent portion of your posts amount to nitpicking at irrelevant things. You know exactly what I meant to say and whether I added "in order to work" does not change the meaning of the sentence.
Quote:
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely
In reality, things are not separate, and language makes them appear to be so.Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Someone who is bragging about enlightenment is not enlightened (at least if we are to understand Enlightened in the Buddhist context), because part of enlightenment according to tathagata is the realization that there is no self or no "i" or any of that, and if someone were to say "I am enlightened" would be admitting that there is a self, and so they are not really enlightened.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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So one can brag about not being Enlightened thereby demonstrating...
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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no. you have still missed the point entirely.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Under the C
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Thereby proving I am not Enlightened which means...
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Means your missin' out on the cageless cage brah.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070410 - 03/05/11 11:07 AM (13 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Two enter: only one may levae.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Thereby proving I am not Enlightened which means...
which means nothing
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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And when the All has become Nothing And Nothing has become the All...
(this could go on for quite some time)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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How about this, OC, what do you think is meant by "enlightenment"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Under the C
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I believe it to be a fictional mind-state; a carrot to attract followers no different than the concept of Heaven.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
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I think it's a broad push away from everything conceptual, this doesn't neccessarily mean you go anywhere or get any special spiritual knowledge but it's a brain function which is "out of experience" or free, detached, w/e. The path of negation.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't understand why a decent portion of your posts amount to nitpicking at irrelevant things. You know exactly what I meant to say and whether I added "in order to work" does not change the meaning of the sentence.
Quote:
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely
In reality, things are not separate, and language makes them appear to be so.
What do you mean by "things are not separate"? Are you talking about how everything is interconnected at the subatomic level?
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Someone who is bragging about enlightenment is not enlightened (at least if we are to understand Enlightened in the Buddhist context), because part of enlightenment according to tathagata is the realization that there is no self or no "i" or any of that, and if someone were to say "I am enlightened" would be admitting that there is a self, and so they are not really enlightened.
Couldn't an enlightened person technically say the words "I am enlightened" while not being attached to them or their meanings, and merely regarding them as random bodily sounds?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14070515 - 03/05/11 11:35 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate, for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is) that gives it the illusion of seperateness. You can't know anything for absoloutely sure so you can't know what anything is. It doesn't mean reality is objectively any way but seeing as we have no idea what it is it is subjectively just one thing, just reality or pure experience prior to our knowledge of it.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070557 - 03/05/11 11:45 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
your idea of a tree is not what it actually is
Can you translate? How do you know what another person's idea is and what a 'real' tree is?
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