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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: skatealex2]
    #14067983 - 03/04/11 07:46 PM (13 years, 19 hours ago)

Utopia is subjective though. So i don't really think that's going to happen objectively.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: deCypher]
    #14068200 - 03/04/11 08:37 PM (13 years, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
But I do see our sociological habitat consisting of small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities, so IMO it makes sense to call the former our "natural" state...


Are you suggesting that the transition from small tribes to larger communities is somehow linked to our evolution?


Quote:

deCypher said:
...particularly when you consider the argument from the Monkeysphere article I linked to previously that deals with the number of members of our species that we recognize as distinct people, and states that this is capped at a fairly low number, further making the case that a smaller community is more ideal for us.  :shrug:


Why would it be ideal to recognize every member of your community as a distinct person? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14068231 - 03/04/11 08:47 PM (13 years, 18 hours ago)

Because you're more inclined to respect someone that you know?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14068235 - 03/04/11 08:49 PM (13 years, 18 hours ago)

So a Utopian society, IYO, is one where everybody respects each other?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14068249 - 03/04/11 08:54 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago)

Yes, I would prefer a society that isn't stratified.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14068268 - 03/04/11 08:59 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago)

It's likely that an unstratified society would fail, consider this:

Brave New World, Chapter 16
Quote:

"I was wondering," said the Savage, "why you had them at all–seeing that you can get whatever you want out of those bottles. Why don't you make everybody an Alpha Double Plus while you're about it?"

Mustapha Mond laughed. "Because we have no wish to have our throats cut," he answered. "We believe in happiness and stability. A society of Alphas couldn't fail to be unstable and miserable. Imagine a factory staffed by Alphas–that is to say by separate and unrelated individuals of good heredity and conditioned so as to be capable (within limits) of making a free choice and assuming responsibilities. Imagine it!" he repeated.

The Savage tried to imagine it, not very successfully.

"It's an absurdity. An Alpha-decanted, Alpha-conditioned man would go mad if he had to do Epsilon Semi-Moron work–go mad, or start smashing things up. Alphas can be completely socialized–but only on condition that you make them do Alpha work. Only an Epsilon can be expected to make Epsilon sacrifices, for the good reason that for him they aren't sacrifices; they're the line of least resistance. His conditioning has laid down rails along which he's got to run. He can't help himself; he's foredoomed. Even after decanting, he's still inside a bottle–an invisible bottle of infantile and embryonic fixations. Each one of us, of course," the Controller meditatively continued, "goes through life inside a bottle. But if we happen to be Alphas, our bottles are, relatively speaking, enormous. We should suffer acutely if we were confined in a narrower space. You cannot pour upper-caste champagne-surrogate into lower-caste bottles. It's obvious theoretically. But it has also been proved in actual practice. The result of the Cyprus experiment was convincing."

"What was that?" asked the Savage.

Mustapha Mond smiled. "Well, you can call it an experiment in rebottling if you like. It began in A.F. 473. The Controllers had the island of Cyprus cleared of all its existing inhabitants and re-colonized with a specially prepared batch of twenty-two thousand Alphas. All agricultural and industrial equipment was handed over to them and they were left to manage their own affairs. The result exactly fulfilled all the theoretical predictions. The land wasn't properly worked; there were strikes in all the factories; the laws were set at naught, orders disobeyed; all the people detailed for a spell of low-grade work were perpetually intriguing for high-grade jobs, and all the people with high-grade jobs were counter-intriguing at all costs to stay where they were. Within six years they were having a first-class civil war. When nineteen out of the twenty-two thousand had been killed, the survivors unanimously petitioned the World Controllers to resume the government of the island. Which they did. And that was the end of the only society of Alphas that the world has ever seen."

The Savage sighed, profoundly.

"The optimum population," said Mustapha Mond, "is modelled on the iceberg–eight-ninths below the water line, one-ninth above."




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14068404 - 03/04/11 09:29 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago)

So how do egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) societies not fail then?

Maybe if your society only cares about money and goods and uses alienating labor...

That argument is essentially arguing in favor of keeping a portion of the population stupid in order to get them to do menial work.


--------------------

Edited by learningtofly (03/04/11 09:31 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14068452 - 03/04/11 09:40 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
So how do egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) societies not fail then?


I'm not quite sure what you mean, what egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) society has not failed?

Are you asking me what egalitarian societies must do in order not to fail?


Quote:

learningtofly said:
Maybe if your society only cares about money and goods and uses alienating labor...


Well in Brave New World, they care about happiness the most.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
That argument is essentially arguing in favor of keeping a portion of the population stupid in order to get them to do menial work.


Consider the following passage:

Quote:

"And they're happy below the water line?"

"Happier than above it. Happier than your friend here, for example." He pointed.

"In spite of that awful work?"

"Awful? They don't find it so. On the contrary, they like it. It's light, it's childishly simple. No strain on the mind or the muscles. Seven and a half hours of mild, unexhausting labour, and then the soma ration and games and unrestricted copulation and the feelies. What more can they ask for? True," he added, "they might ask for shorter hours. And of course we could give them shorter hours. Technically, it would be perfectly simple to reduce all lower-caste working hours to three or four a day. But would they be any the happier for that? No, they wouldn't. The experiment was tried, more than a century and a half ago. The whole of Ireland was put on to the four-hour day. What was the result? Unrest and a large increase in the consumption of soma; that was all. Those three and a half hours of extra leisure were so far from being a source of happiness, that people felt constrained to take a holiday from them. The Inventions Office is stuffed with plans for labour-saving processes. Thousands of them." Mustapha Mond made a lavish gesture. "And why don't we put them into execution? For the sake of the labourers; it would be sheer cruelty to afflict them with excessive leisure. It's the same with agriculture. We could synthesize every morsel of food, if we wanted to. But we don't. We prefer to keep a third of the population on the land. For their own sakes–because it takes longer to get food out of the land than out of a factory. Besides, we have our stability to think of. We don't want to change. Every change is a menace to stability. That's another reason why we're so chary of applying new inventions. Every discovery in pure science is potentially subversive; even science must sometimes be treated as a possible enemy. Yes, even science."




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14068470 - 03/04/11 09:43 PM (13 years, 17 hours ago)

There are quite a few, I don't quite understand what you're talking about. They aren't necessarily industrialized nations but that doesn't by any measure means they're failed societies unless you are holding a eurocentric view of things.

As for utilitarianism, I think it's a stupid idea because it comes with too many contradictions.

Why bring up happiness though? I never said that I thought people should be happy all the time.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14068556 - 03/04/11 09:58 PM (13 years, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
There are quite a few...


Really, like which?


Quote:

learningtofly said:
...I don't quite understand what you're talking about. They aren't necessarily industrialized nations but that doesn't by any measure means they're failed societies unless you are holding a eurocentric view of things.


I never said that they're necessarily industrialized nations or that they're failed societies.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
As for utilitarianism, I think it's a stupid idea because it comes with too many contradictions.


What kinds of contradictions?


Quote:

learningtofly said:
Why bring up happiness though? I never said that I thought people should be happy all the time.


Well wouldn't the citizens of a Utopian society by definition be happy?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14068916 - 03/04/11 11:09 PM (13 years, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
But I do see our sociological habitat consisting of small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities, so IMO it makes sense to call the former our "natural" state...


Are you suggesting that the transition from small tribes to larger communities is somehow linked to our evolution?




Not entirely sure what you mean here... I don't think I'm suggesting that.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
...particularly when you consider the argument from the Monkeysphere article I linked to previously that deals with the number of members of our species that we recognize as distinct people, and states that this is capped at a fairly low number, further making the case that a smaller community is more ideal for us.  :shrug:


Why would it be ideal to recognize every member of your community as a distinct person? :undecided:




learning2fly answered this aptly.  :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: deCypher]
    #14068996 - 03/04/11 11:31 PM (13 years, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
But I do see our sociological habitat consisting of small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities, so IMO it makes sense to call the former our "natural" state...


Are you suggesting that the transition from small tribes to larger communities is somehow linked to our evolution?




Not entirely sure what you mean here... I don't think I'm suggesting that.


You're saying that living in small tribes is our "natural" state, which implies that we are genetically programmed to live that way--what do you make of the fact that most humans no longer live that way? Do you think that our genes have evolved to influence us to live in larger communities, or do you think that humans began living in large communities due to non-genetic factors? What are you basing your assertion that living in small tribes is our "natural" state on besides the fact that we've been living in small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities?


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
...particularly when you consider the argument from the Monkeysphere article I linked to previously that deals with the number of members of our species that we recognize as distinct people, and states that this is capped at a fairly low number, further making the case that a smaller community is more ideal for us.  :shrug:


Why would it be ideal to recognize every member of your community as a distinct person? :undecided:




learning2fly answered this aptly.  :thumbup:


So you think an unstratified society would be ideal? Can you provide examples where such a society maintained some decent stability for a prolonged period of time?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14069370 - 03/05/11 01:38 AM (13 years, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You're saying that living in small tribes is our "natural" state, which implies that we are genetically programmed to live that way--what do you make of the fact that most humans no longer live that way? Do you think that our genes have evolved to influence us to live in larger communities, or do you think that humans began living in large communities due to non-genetic factors?




Non-genetic factors primarily, I'd guess.

Quote:

Poid said:
What are you basing your assertion that living in small tribes is our "natural" state on besides the fact that we've been living in small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities?




That plus the Monkeysphere idea that we can only really care about a small number of humans.

Quote:

Poid said:
So you think an unstratified society would be ideal? Can you provide examples where such a society maintained some decent stability for a prolonged period of time?




I'm not sure what you mean by an unstratified society; I was just saying learning2fly aptly answered your question "Why would it be ideal to recognize every member of your community as a distinct person?" with "Because you're more inclined to respect someone that you know."  Also think of crime: is it harder to murder or steal from someone you know versus someone you don't?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: deCypher]
    #14069455 - 03/05/11 02:17 AM (13 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
You're saying that living in small tribes is our "natural" state, which implies that we are genetically programmed to live that way--what do you make of the fact that most humans no longer live that way? Do you think that our genes have evolved to influence us to live in larger communities, or do you think that humans began living in large communities due to non-genetic factors?




Non-genetic factors primarily, I'd guess.

Quote:

Poid said:
What are you basing your assertion that living in small tribes is our "natural" state on besides the fact that we've been living in small tribes for a very long timescale compared to the duration of time in which we've been living in larger communities?




That plus the Monkeysphere idea that we can only really care about a small number of humans.


Why would the fact that we've been living in small tribes for much longer than we've been living in large communities be an indication that we're evolutionarily designed to live in small tribes? And if you believe that non-genetic factors influenced us to begin living in large communities, then why don't you also believe that non-genetic factors influenced us to live in small tribes?

I don't see how the monkeysphere idea proves that living in smaller tribes is our "natural state", would you mind elaborating?


Quote:

deCypher said:
...I was just saying learning2fly aptly answered your question "Why would it be ideal to recognize every member of your community as a distinct person?" with "Because you're more inclined to respect someone that you know."


I'm interested in knowing why you consider that to be ideal.


Quote:

deCypher said:
Also think of crime: is it harder to murder or steal from someone you know versus someone you don't?


Well if the society is Utopian, wouldn't that necessarily mean that its crime rate would be really low to non-existent (since everyone is pleased)? So long as there is a decent justice system that effectively deters crime, one needn't have to worry much about being killed or mugged by a stranger. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14069480 - 03/05/11 02:25 AM (13 years, 12 hours ago)

give us all fleshlights, we'll be fine.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14069486 - 03/05/11 02:27 AM (13 years, 12 hours ago)

Wow, what a coincidence, I just posted a picture of a fleshlight like 10 seconds ago in the other thread. :levitate:

:egyptian:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: Poid]
    #14070366 - 03/05/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

idk why I didn't bother posting this earlier, but, Poid, quoting a novel is not evidence for your argument, I would really like to see some actual evidence that stratified societies are more stable than egalitarian ones, because I firmly believe that to be absolute bullshit; everything we know about complexity, behavioral theory, conflict theory, functionalist theory (which is bullshit), etc will tell you that a stratified society is less stable. Besides, take a look at this
. The study found income inequality correlated strongly with social problems such as homicide, infant mortality, obesity, teenage pregnancies, emotional depression and prison population. For example, countries such as Japan, Finland and Norway scored highly in social well-being and income equality, while countries such as the United States and United Kingdom scored low in both.
- study

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
So how do egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) societies not fail then?


I'm not quite sure what you mean, what egalitarian (or relatively egalitarian) society has not failed?

Are you asking me what egalitarian societies must do in order not to fail?


yes


Quote:

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Maybe if your society only cares about money and goods and uses alienating labor...


Well in Brave New World, they care about happiness the most.


So? What does brave new world, which is a DYSTOPIA by the way, have to do with anything? That is just one example of a -topia, it doesn't mean that all utopian societies have to be built on happiness.

Edited by learningtofly (03/05/11 11:05 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070385 - 03/05/11 11:01 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

Then why are there so many long lived stratified societies on the planet?

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14070407 - 03/05/11 11:06 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

unless you believe that might makes right, i don't understand why you asked that question


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is a Utopian Society possible in America? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14070438 - 03/05/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 3 hours ago)

"Right"?  I dont know about that.  But the prevalence and prominence of stratified societies (human and otherwise) is clear evidence that they are stable.  Stable in that they are robust, cant adapt to change and are long lived.  That is what you mean right?

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