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Mindscapology
Mindscapology



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO
#14069602 - 03/05/11 04:23 AM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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A video explaining why physicalism is illogical.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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The narrator who made a whole bunch of unfounded claims and spoke with an overly-dramatic voice, & the weird music/animations in the background all contributed to making me feel like this video is mostly for entertainment, and not so much for education/information.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mindscapology
Mindscapology



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14069629 - 03/05/11 04:57 AM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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I completely disagree. It is profoundly educational in my view, and itself questions the assumptions of other traditional views.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Boring video, can you sum up what reasons/evidence the author of this video has for his position?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mindscapology said: I completely disagree. It is profoundly educational in my view...
Which part or parts did you find profoundly educational? Did you find the various unsupported claims to be profoundly educational? 
Quote:
Mindscapology said: ...and itself questions the assumptions of other traditional views.
So what, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's educational.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mindscapology
Mindscapology



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14069644 - 03/05/11 05:25 AM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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What parts did you consider unsupported?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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The first sentence, for one: "It is often assumed that consciousness is to be explained by the known elements of nature; this assumption has not been proved because it cannot be proved."
After this he goes on to say more unsupported nonsense, like "Reality transcends the physical, the mind transcends the brain."--I personally can't believe that you have trouble pointing out the unsupported claims in that video, it was fucking full of them.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/05/11 08:10 AM)
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Mindscapology
Mindscapology



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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You're obviously uneducated. The first sentence sets out what he then goes on to explain. The whole video supports that claim!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mindscapology said: You're obviously uneducated.
You're obviously new to the forum, so I'll give you a friendly heads-up; personalisms are not allowed, so stick to the topic and please avoid making comments about other users.
4) Avoid malicious personalisms. We're all human and nobody expects a completely sterile discussion, but please try to keep to the topic, and leave the folks you're talking to personally out of the discussion.
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Mindscapology said: The first sentence sets out what he then goes on to explain. The whole video supports that claim!
Can you please point out exactly where that claim is supported? Most of the rest of the video consists of a bunch more unsupported claims; I'm not the only one in this thread who has noticed this, and I'm still surprised that you're having so much trouble comprehending it. 
Just in case you didn't know, this is a debate forum, and you can't just post videos here without providing a description, and a proposed topic of discussion.
3) If you're going to post a link to a video or external web page, also please include a description of what the link is about and a proposed topic for discussion. Posts not conforming to this will be deleted.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/05/11 08:12 AM)
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Mindscapology
Mindscapology



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14070042 - 03/05/11 09:13 AM (13 years, 21 hours ago) |
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Okay, I apologise for 'rule breaking'!
By summing up the video, as requested, I think I can thereby answer your question, as to where that claim is supported.
The video comes from a secular perspective. It shows that mental states cannot simply BE physical (brain) states, though they are of course correlated. This claim is supported by 3 main arguments:
1. Irreducibility - 1a) Qualia - 1b) Leibniz's Mill - 1c) Monochromatic Man 2. Phenomenological Non-Necessity 3. Correlation Conflation
It ends by linking the transcendence of the mental above the physical with the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche.
The video does specifically NOT endorse Dualism (mind & soul), but an immaterial monism.
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Dagon
Ð12/-\GøN 7/-\m312


Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14070080 - 03/05/11 09:30 AM (13 years, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: The narrator who made a whole bunch of unfounded claims and spoke with an overly-dramatic voice, & the weird music/animations in the background all contributed to making me feel like this video is mostly for entertainment, and not so much for education/information. 
Which claim are you refuting again?
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Dagon
Ð12/-\GøN 7/-\m312


Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 106
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Mindscapology said: Okay, I apologise for 'rule breaking'!
By summing up the video, as requested, I think I can thereby answer your question, as to where that claim is supported.
The video comes from a secular perspective. It shows that mental states cannot simply BE physical (brain) states, though they are of course correlated. This claim is supported by 3 main arguments:
1. Irreducibility - 1a) Qualia - 1b) Leibniz's Mill - 1c) Monochromatic Man 2. Phenomenological Non-Necessity 3. Correlation Conflation
It ends by linking the transcendence of the mental above the physical with the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche.
The video does specifically NOT endorse Dualism (mind & soul), but an immaterial monism.
How about the Double Slit experiement as well?
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JustinTime
Strangerer


Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Germany
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Dagon]
#14070113 - 03/05/11 09:47 AM (13 years, 20 hours ago) |
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I would like to hear a argument against what has been stated, rather than accusation that it isn't true. C'mon Materialists!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mindscapology said: It shows that mental states cannot simply BE physical (brain) states, though they are of course correlated.
It doesn't show it, it just claims it.
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Mindscapology said: This claim is supported by 3 main arguments:
1. Irreducibility - 1a) Qualia - 1b) Leibniz's Mill - 1c) Monochromatic Man
During the portion of the video where it mentioned qualia, it merely repeats that perceptions themselves cannot be physical; no evidence was provided to back up this assertion. If you think the video backed up this assertion, please show me exactly where it did. I mean, it shouldn't be so hard, since you're so "educated", right?
The Leibniz's Mill portion speaks about how one can find the neural correlate to something like satisfaction in the brain, but one cannot find the actual experience it; I'm curious, what exactly do you think thi proves?
What do you think the Monochromatic Man portion proved? Here it is in text:
Let us imagine a man, "Mariose", who is congenitally monochromatic, a man who from birth has only been able to see one color: blue. He's a neuroscientist who specializes in fully identifying the brain activity correlated with people seeing yellow. Imagine his visual condition as then remedied, and he sees yellow for the first time: he has now acquired additional knowledge of yellowness, phenomenological first-person knowledge. Therefore, a full knowledge of the physical brain cannot be a full knowledge of consciousness. The consciousness of yellow augments the physical neurological knowledge of yellow. Importantly, this epistemological addition reveals an ontological addition: because the consciousness of yellow exists, and because that consciousness cannot exist physically, existence must transcend the physical to include the mental. The latter is not reducible to the former, the latter exists as well as the former. The mind transcends the physical brain.
Do you honestly not see any unsubstantiated claims here? 
I'm not going to bother with addressing the rest of the portions of the video, as it all pretty much just follows the same pattern of being littered with unsubstantiated claims, like this one:
Consciousness cannot be fully known by materialism, and it cannot be a material substance, though it is correlated to it as mass is correlated to gravity.
Quote:
Mindscapology said: It ends by linking the transcendence of the mental above the physical with the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche.
Yeah it mentions 'will-to-power', so what? It also says this:
Ultimately, primal forms of consciousness must be accepted as intrinsic to the substratum of reality rather than a property emerging from an unconscious, dead material.
Do you actually just unquestioningly swallow this stuff and believe it?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JustinTime
Strangerer


Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Germany
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14070186 - 03/05/11 10:12 AM (13 years, 20 hours ago) |
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All I see are accusations of it being false, no proof to the contrary. Do you know how to debate?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: JustinTime]
#14070197 - 03/05/11 10:15 AM (13 years, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Dagon said:
Quote:
Poid said: The narrator who made a whole bunch of unfounded claims and spoke with an overly-dramatic voice, & the weird music/animations in the background all contributed to making me feel like this video is mostly for entertainment, and not so much for education/information. 
Which claim are you refuting again?
I'm attacking the credibility of the source of this information.
Quote:
JustinTime said: I would like to hear a argument against what has been stated, rather than accusation that it isn't true. C'mon Materialists!
This is why people should post a text-version of their videos, or at least sum up the main arguments contained therein; it's not as easy to debate a video as it is to debate text.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/05/11 10:27 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: JustinTime]
#14070239 - 03/05/11 10:27 AM (13 years, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
JustinTime said: All I see are accusations of it being false, no proof to the contrary.

You're not familiar with the concept of 'burden of proof', are you? The burden of proof is on the claimant, not me; I'm just pointing out various unsubstantiated claims that the claimant has made, and you must be hallucinating because I never even said that I believe those claims are false.
  
Quote:
JustinTime said: Do you know how to debate?
Of course I do, but you apparently are either unfamiliar with, or simply just don't understand the concept of burden of proof, and this leads you to believe that it is my duty to prove my opponent's unsubstantiated claims wrong; it should be me asking you whether or not you know how to debate, but I already know the answer to that so there's no use.

-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JustinTime
Strangerer


Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Germany
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Poid]
#14070263 - 03/05/11 10:32 AM (13 years, 20 hours ago) |
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I would just like to hear your materialist explanation of the double slit experiment.
And yeah, you haven't proved anything.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Mind Transcends Brain VIDEO [Re: Dagon]
#14070319 - 03/05/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
How about the Double Slit experiement as well?
Is that about the Barbi twins?
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,020
Last seen: 8 hours, 25 minutes
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Quote:
there is a perfect correlation between DNA and species
This is a weak part of the argument, as it is not true, unless you assume that it is a given.
A species is arbitrary classification that contains individuals of a group that have been defined as belonging to that group. The study of ring species have shown that the groups of neighboring related species in ring species will overlap and that given a group of groups, group a may be co specific with b,c,d but not e, while group c may be co specific with group e. This is of course using a biological definition of species, where individuals within one group are considered co specific with individuals within another group if they can produce fertile offspring. The analogy in the video only works when you assume that there is a perfect correlation between DNA and species.
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