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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14064429 - 03/04/11 02:10 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

That's awesome, you have some great pics! Yeah using the shredded cardboard for the last few days has been some improvement. I'm now upgrading my draining set up, to completely reduce abundant water. I was trying to cut corners with a simpler technique, but its worth putting in the effort for better product.


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14064641 - 03/04/11 04:11 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Post deleted by FernandoCastro

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Edited by FernandoCastro (03/04/11 04:15 AM)

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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14065078 - 03/04/11 08:25 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Pet store or horse supply aspen bedding.  Lowes should be able to get hardwood pelet fuel and you could grow on that.  Or rent a wood chipper from lowes and find some hardwood to run through it and grow on that.  Recycle old phone books, jeans, almost anything will grow oysters.


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I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: trout]
    #14065100 - 03/04/11 08:34 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Check and gardening, landscape places. They offen have it.  Also keep an eye out for areas where they are doing dirt work they often use a grinder and spray it over the ground to prevent erosion.  Just stop and ask for some you might be surprised.


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I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: trout]
    #14065122 - 03/04/11 08:42 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

I missed the 2nd page so some may be redundant sorry.


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I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14065475 - 03/04/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

FernandoCastro said:
BTW: I saw that you're playing with some straw too;
if you're re-utilizing the substrate try to spawn some cardboard+coffee with the spent straw block after fruiting (if they´re not moldy).




Yeah I tried that awhile ago with some really really old blocks, and that was a failure. If I transfer it immediately after harvest I'm hoping it'll pick up on the new sustenance and colonize. Good thinking.


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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14065569 - 03/04/11 10:37 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BlueLightRain said:
Quote:

FernandoCastro said:
BTW: I saw that you're playing with some straw too;
if you're re-utilizing the substrate try to spawn some cardboard+coffee with the spent straw block after fruiting (if they´re not moldy).




Yeah I tried that awhile ago with some really really old blocks, and that was a failure. If I transfer it immediately after harvest I'm hoping it'll pick up on the new sustenance and colonize. Good thinking.




Yep I just tried this with a spent straw substrate and some mold got started but I knocked it back with some peroxide and now I'm going to see if the oyster can rally.  I kind of doubt it since I was spawning old substrate into kind of old coffee grounds but I've seen oysters do some amazing things.

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14066308 - 03/04/11 01:25 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

FernandoCastro said:


I've found that shredded cardboard is the (inexpensive) way to go.
I subscribe what MonkeyKnifeFight said: I don´t re-pasteurize my grounds either; oyster mycelium allied with cardboard can overrun the sub with ease.




I can't tell if that's wet or dry cardboard. It appears dry. Are you adding it dry or do you wet process the cardboard before the mycelium colonizes it?

Not only is it inexpensive - its free! It would be nice to get a shredder and shred a bunch of cardboard...but right now I'm sitting on my couch tearing it into manageable pieces. It's a pretty easy task. Using cardboard and spent coffee grounds for food - lovely! :smile:


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OfflineHumility
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14066783 - 03/04/11 02:55 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

It's damp cardboard.  You can tell because of how the edges of the cardboard fold down like they're weighted down (which they are, by water).

My guess is he wet it up then allowed it to hang until it reached that stage.


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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14066961 - 03/04/11 03:38 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BlueLightRain said:
One word: labor. I have a cycle that develops 14 jars every two weeks. A jar can inoculate one to two 5-gallon buckets at a time. When I want to increase production I'll sterilize more jars. It's simply about managing the time and doing it consistently.




Nice! 14 jars is just what my All American 930 will do. :grin:

I didn't realize you could have that high a substrate-to-spawn ratio. 5 gallons to 1 quart = 20:1, and 10 gallons to 1 quart = 40:1. Did you have to build up to that ratio by finding ways to reduce the possibility of contamination?


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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
    #14067224 - 03/04/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

BlueLightRain said:
One word: labor. I have a cycle that develops 14 jars every two weeks. A jar can inoculate one to two 5-gallon buckets at a time. When I want to increase production I'll sterilize more jars. It's simply about managing the time and doing it consistently.




Nice! 14 jars is just what my All American 930 will do. :grin:

I didn't realize you could have that high a substrate-to-spawn ratio. 5 gallons to 1 quart = 20:1, and 10 gallons to 1 quart = 40:1. Did you have to build up to that ratio by finding ways to reduce the possibility of contamination?




It's a case to case basis. Consider the strain you use. If the strain grows very quickly you can use less. My first grain masters colonize in 9 days, my second grain masters colonize in less days. Quite vigorous! If you are working with a species and strain that grows slower (and some oysters do grow slower) you'll have to use a lower ratio. 10:1 for instance. I have golden oysters that are extremely stubborn so I'll probably use 3 jars per bucket. I just want to see some fruits! In pasteurized material it's about tempering the amount of spawn you use to beat contaminants.

Figure out what you need and tailor your labor and operation based on that. If you need a 10:1 ratio of spawn then run that All American twice in a day, then inoculate your 28 jars when you wake up the following day. Do this every 2 weeks. I run it twice on Monday then inoculate the jars on Tuesday. I do this every two weeks. If I am running out of grain masters I'll make an extra batch on Tuesday and inoculate the jars on Wednesday. If you're dedicated I suggest having a schedule of sorts.

I'm considering adding some spawn to coffee grounds and cardboard that hasn't been pasteurized. This will probably require a higher spawn to substrate ratio to combat potential contaminants. Here is a picture of my oyster grain to grain transfer (G2). It was inoculated 3 days ago on March 1. The transfer ratio was one jar to 14 new jars. Highly vigorous.


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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14069739 - 03/05/11 06:43 AM (13 years, 14 hours ago)

Great info, BlueLightRain!:thumbup:

How do you keep starting fresh grain masters? Other grain masters? Agar?


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

Edited by Terry M (03/05/11 06:43 AM)

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
    #14070078 - 03/05/11 09:30 AM (13 years, 12 hours ago)

I pour about 100 plates of agar at a time and let them sit in my glove box with their sleeves on top of them until they are ready to be used. I have my cultures up to p4 right now, which come Monday I'll transfer and make a batch of 20 p5. I'll probably do this a couple more generations. The idea is to replenish and have a high amount of plates from which to draw when I am ready to make transfers (let's say p7 or p8 is more than comfortable - because by transferring and developing a new generation I am making an exponential amount of cultures available).

Expanding my plates to later generations gives me a number of advantages. First, it literally keeps me several million plates away from my master plate. Second, it gives me a margin of error in case something were to go wrong with my transfers. Third, it gives me a bunch of mycelium to transfer to my grain masters.

I like to take two to three big chunks of agar from each plate to inoculate one jar. This takes about 2-4 dishes to inoculate 14 jars. If I do this every 2 weeks, this means I'll need to have (comfortably) 8 dishes available in a month from which to draw. This is pretty simple. Each agar dish can make a new generation of 20 to 30 more agar dishes. So I simply make a transfer at the beginning of the month to supply myself enough agar mycelium for the next two or three months. The Pl. pulm mycelium colonizes the dish in around a week. So I do these transfers at least a week before I'll be needing them (two weeks or a month before is even better - this allows me to make up for any mistakes, contaminants, etc).

Okay, so now we have our grain masters. I made 14 of them using 2 to 3 good sized chunks of agar. They take up to 10 days to colonize. I say 14 jars because my presto pressure cooker only does 7 jars at a time. I do two batches. Then my second generation grain masters take up to 7 days to colonize (usually even faster - but remember, we are working ahead of schedule to have room for error or unexpected snags). I use one G1 grain master to make 14 G2 grain jars. These G2 grain jars are what I use to inoculate my substrate with. I can even expand to another G3 generation if I prefer, but it's unnecessary at this point. Knowing that I'll be using all of the G2s in two weeks, come that time when all the G2s are used I'll already have 14 more jars ready at my disposal. I start a new batch of G2 as soon as the prior batch has been completely colonized. This is keeping a schedule of sorts. If I have 14 G1 grain masters, and I use one every two weeks, I only have to replenish my G1 grain masters every 7 months (doing it two weeks ahead of time of course to allow colonizing of grain and transferring to G2). When I find a perfectly suitable way of processing my coffee and I can make a consistent supply of bags with 14 G2 jars every two weeks, I'll increase my production to use 14 jars every week. I'll probably buy an All American 41 Quart at that point (it fits 19 quart jars at a time). This means I'll replenish my G1 every three and a half months. I tailor my spawn to fit my work schedule and production.

I knew a month or two ago that I would be developing a bunch of coffee bags so I had to develop a plan to fit this. It took a few days to figure out all the quarks, but it also took about 4 or 5 months total to understand how this exact fungus works. I marked every plate I made with it to give me an idea of how long it takes to colonize a plate, and how long it takes to colonize a jar. I call this process research and development. Once I had all the information I needed I sat down and drew out a very simple flow chart with days and processes. There have been some adjustments but I'm basically following that flow chart on a day to day basis at this point. I call that flow chart my business plan.

One man can do this...of course all of this depends on refrigeration. The grain jars and the petri plates are stored in the refrigerator until they are ready to be used. I take them out a day before I use them to allow the mycelium to warm up and begin colonizing again. This isn't necessary for agar to agar transfer but it works exceptionally well when it comes to agar to grain transfer and grain to grain transfer. I want my grain colonized as fast as possible.

I run this whole routine because I expect to make a business out of it in some way...whether it's making grow bags or starting a farm. Making grow bags is actually a great place to start because they can be the exact steps you take to eventually implement in a farm, which fruits the mushrooms. Building a consistent schedule is important for having a reliable crop and making a reliable amount of money. If this is simply a hobby, you really don't have to take these steps. Just sit and watch everything grow, transfer and start afresh. But if you want to turn your hobby into a money making business as so many of us want to do, think of how you can make a process as simple and effective as possible, and repeat that process endlessly. I developed a routine that is proven to me through my own experiences that will work every single time as long as I do the same procedures. This is how I expect to run a myco business.

I've just always kept an eye on scheduling and inventory at my jobs to see how the business keeps things running on a consistent basis. Ever since I worked in a coffee shop, I've rearranged the placement of machines and the methods I use to develop a routine that is as absolutely efficient as possible with what I have to work with. By doing this I was able to serve guests more quickly, which meant losing less guests to long lines. I currently work at a restaurant that serves over 400 guests on a weekend night. A schedule is absolutely necessary to prevent chaos. Upkeep and consistency is how every business survives.

At this point I've developed the backbone of the business and I'm refining my substrate. I have an endless supply of mycelium to keep testing these substrates 5 days a week. It's a great feeling knowing every day I'll wake up and refine my process that will get me closer to my goal!

I wouldn't be surprised to find RR probably follows a similar schedule of sorts to run his farm. He just has a few more steps because he fruits his bags in an environment, so he has checks and controls for that process, and then a schedule to harvest them, package them and sell them. Like I said if he chimes in on this post I would expect to find a similar schedule from him. RR are you out there?


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Edited by BlueLightRain (03/05/11 11:04 AM)

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InvisibleOzzy
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14070133 - 03/05/11 09:56 AM (13 years, 11 hours ago)

:popcorn:

Very informative! great thread, I'm signing up for the show:awethumb:

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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14070500 - 03/05/11 11:32 AM (13 years, 10 hours ago)

Post deleted by FernandoCastro

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14096760 - 03/10/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I finally verified that the N.Y. Times is specifically "edible" from a Times gardening Q. and A.  My current plan is to include shredded newspapers in my comparison -- assuming that my 5 quarts of Blue Oyster grain spawn grow well. Our household generate lots of newspaper and lots of coffee grounds. I've currently got a bag of Pearl Oyster fruiting on 100% shredded brown paper grocery bags.

There are too many possible combinations of growth media and amounts, but my current choices are:

1. 50/50 shredded newspaper, coffee grounds
2. 25/75 shredded newspaper, coffee grounds
3. 50/50 straw, coffee grounds
4. 25/75 shredded brown paper grocery bags, coffee grounds
5. 25/25/50 shredded newspaper, shredded paper bags, coffee grounds


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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
    #14098193 - 03/10/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This is great testing. How many jars are colonizing?

I'm still working out the kinks on my all coffee (or mostly coffee and some coffee filter paper) project. I've been pasteurizing, straining and pressing the coffee, but the process is somewhat sloppy and definitely labor intensive. I'm going to try using the coffee grounds straight from the shop, pressing it, then adding a much higher ratio of spawn per bag of substrate. My theory is that with an agressive strain the mycelium will colonize the substrate faster than contaminants can appear/proliferate.


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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14098295 - 03/10/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm colonizing 2 half gallon jars and 1 quart jar of rye grain. I had the half gallon jars around and was waiting for an opportunity to use them. Interestingly enough, the half gallon jars seem a day or two behind the quart jar. They all received the same amount proportionally of liquid spawn. Don't know if this is coincidence, or something that happens generally with size of grain jar.


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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14098364 - 03/10/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueLightRain said:
This is great testing. How many jars are colonizing?

I'm still working out the kinks on my all coffee (or mostly coffee and some coffee filter paper) project. I've been pasteurizing, straining and pressing the coffee, but the process is somewhat sloppy and definitely labor intensive. I'm going to try using the coffee grounds straight from the shop, pressing it, then adding a much higher ratio of spawn per bag of substrate. My theory is that with an agressive strain the mycelium will colonize the substrate faster than contaminants can appear/proliferate.




What do you mean by 'pressing' the grounds?  I find the biggest problem with grounds is that they compact down terribly.  But I made some big ass bags of just coffee grounds (over 100lbs wet) and they just started fruiting last couple weeks.  I would recommend doing grounds outside and expecting at least some mold.  I've seen oyster mycelium overcome the mold every time.

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14099703 - 03/10/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MonkeyKnifeFight said:
Quote:

BlueLightRain said:
This is great testing. How many jars are colonizing?

I'm still working out the kinks on my all coffee (or mostly coffee and some coffee filter paper) project. I've been pasteurizing, straining and pressing the coffee, but the process is somewhat sloppy and definitely labor intensive. I'm going to try using the coffee grounds straight from the shop, pressing it, then adding a much higher ratio of spawn per bag of substrate. My theory is that with an agressive strain the mycelium will colonize the substrate faster than contaminants can appear/proliferate.




What do you mean by 'pressing' the grounds?  I find the biggest problem with grounds is that they compact down terribly.  But I made some big ass bags of just coffee grounds (over 100lbs wet) and they just started fruiting last couple weeks.  I would recommend doing grounds outside and expecting at least some mold.  I've seen oyster mycelium overcome the mold every time.




My bags have been over-saturated with water, so a buddy and I brainstormed a way to "kneed out" the excess water. Basically I drilled a million 9/64 inch holes on the bottom and lower sides of a bucket, filled it with the coffee grounds, put a circular plate (I used a lid cut to a smaller size) on top of the grounds, then forced one or two cinder blocks and my weight on top of it for 15 or so minutes. This presses out (almost) all the excess water and makes the substrate perfectly damp. After making about 25 soggy bags I realized draining the coffee grounds for a day doesn't do the trick. Have to press it!

If not pressed the soggy grounds tend to develop a stink and bit of bacteria goo, and the mycelium is drowned and won't colonize the soggy areas.

I'm still doing some research and development as to what the best ratio of grain to grounds is, especially when taken straight from the coffee shop and not re-pasteurized. I realized today that instead of spending the majority of my time reprocessing the substrate I can spend it instead creating more grain spawn, which can then be used at a higher ratio on the coffee grounds. Think of it as a form of blitzkrieg. I've been spending a long time getting the grounds re-pasteurized and I might be able to overcome this step by introducing more grain. The labor will go somewhere, though, and I'm thinking I'd rather spend some extra pennies toward grain ($0.26/lb for wheat grain). This in turn means my grain production will probably double. Flow hood and 41 quart pressure sterilizer here I come!

All this work has my mind dreaming about one of these bad boys, a hydraulic press. They list online for $100 to $3,000. Or millions depending on your application. Consider fixing a flat plate to the press, which may be lowered into a metal bucket to squeeze out water effortlessly. :smile:


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