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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth?
#14069512 - 03/05/11 02:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is an economics question, but I figured this is the best place to put it given the political connotations and the fact that economic issues are frequently discussed here.
Is there a consensus amongst economists, preferably empirically derived, as to what government policies best lead to sustained growth, development, in general?
Watching congressional debates, committee meetings, and listening to campaign platforms, it seems nobody really hits on this issue, and I wonder if I'm being spoken down to (patronized, presumed ignorant)? Is there a generally accepted range of policy that is shown to lead to better sustained growth as compared to others? From the political discussion, it seems like people wax on about what should be, what people deserve, and make vague appeals to "improving employment", but there seems little in the way of reasoned discussion of empiracle evidence or accepted academic thought on the matter. Is there some consensus that the politicians are just ignoring and assuming we're too stupid to know of?
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14069957 - 03/05/11 08:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not qualified to answer, but that probably stop anyone else.
If the heated debate that ensues whenever you get two economists in the same room/radio program/news show is any indicator, I don't think there is an answer there. Most of the time you hear from Keynesian economists who argue over exactly where the line between private sector business and public sector regulation should be drawn, but do agree that a combination of the two is what most consistently keeps things going. I believe Keynesian economic theory underlies most world economies today.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: gluke bastid]
#14070534 - 03/05/11 11:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Current consensus is that monetary and fiscal policy should be used to smooth out business cycles with goals of price stability and full employment. This is primarily accomplished by "stimulating demand" through fiscal stimulus and maintaining low interest rates while ensuring there is sufficient liquidity in the banking sector. It is claimed that runaway inflation can be prevented by raising rates and through management of interest on reserves.
It's all bullshit. They rely on the false assumptions that capital is homogeneous and that money flows neutrally. Bastiat's argument of the seen and unseen refuted this shit about 200 years ago. Of course, sustainable economic growth is not the goal of these economic policies. Growing government, sustaining the banking cartel, and concentrating power are the goals.
Although Keynesianism has changed considerably since it was written, Hazlitt's "The Failure of New Economics" is a paragraph by paragraph destruction of "The General Theory" and shows the origin of the current consensus on economics to be a farce.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14070638 - 03/05/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There is no consensus. There never will be.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14070854 - 03/05/11 01:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no consensus. There never will be.
Not even among the wealthy elite.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14070871 - 03/05/11 01:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There is no elite.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14070899 - 03/05/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
I can no longer support you for ultimate emperor.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Icelander]
#14070911 - 03/05/11 01:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
I can no longer support you for ultimate emperor. 
I would just be a humble servant of the people. My humility elevates me above the throng.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14071099 - 03/05/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no consensus. There never will be.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
What about central banks? They are all engaging in competitive currency debasement.
What would you call that? A coincidence?
Seriously, zappa, how can you not care about government enforced banking cartels? I could understand if you thought they are necessary to ensure national security but to just not care, wtf?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: d33p]
#14071116 - 03/05/11 02:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Free market, anarcho-capitalism, with emphasis on free market.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14071118 - 03/05/11 02:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: d33p]
#14071145 - 03/05/11 02:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no consensus. There never will be.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
What about central banks? They are all engaging in competitive currency debasement.
Against what?Quote:
What would you call that? A coincidence?
Seriously, zappa, how can you not care about government enforced banking cartels? I could understand if you thought they are necessary to ensure national security but to just not care, wtf?
It is an essential feature of government to regulate its currency. It's right there in the Constitution and every nation does it. Seriously, find something else to worry about.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14071235 - 03/05/11 02:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no consensus. There never will be.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no elite.
What about central banks? They are all engaging in competitive currency debasement.
Against what?Quote:
What would you call that? A coincidence?
Seriously, zappa, how can you not care about government enforced banking cartels? I could understand if you thought they are necessary to ensure national security but to just not care, wtf?
It is an essential feature of government to regulate its currency. It's right there in the Constitution and every nation does it. Seriously, find something else to worry about.
Against each other.
You can think it's an essential feature of government without supporting the federal reserve system or central banking in general. The federal reserve was created to act as a lender of last resort so that members of the banking oligarchy could not fail. A government enforced cartel that prevents creative destruction was not what the founding fathers had in mind. edit: Actually, you could say that some such as Hamilton did want that. Central banking was even an important plank of Marx's transitory socialist state.
It's undeniable that central banks exert a great deal of influence. Why don't you care? Is it because you think it can't be changed or does it just bore you? What?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: d33p]
#14071252 - 03/05/11 02:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because I think it is beneficial and I find the anti-bank hyperventilation ridiculous and a distraction.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14071285 - 03/05/11 02:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Because I think it is beneficial and I find the anti-bank hyperventilation ridiculous and a distraction.
Don't confuse anti-central bank with anti-bank. I fully support free banking.
So do you think TARP and quantitative easing are beneficial? What is the most beneficial policy or action of central banks? Trying to maintain price stability, consistent low inflation, or full employment? Staving off the deflationary spiral?
What problem did the federal reserve solve?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: d33p]
#14071356 - 03/05/11 03:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Because I think it is beneficial and I find the anti-bank hyperventilation ridiculous and a distraction.
Don't confuse anti-central bank with anti-bank. I fully support free banking.
I made a shorthand. I suppose I shouldn't have.Quote:
So do you think TARP and quantitative easing are beneficial?
TARP absolutely. Except for the part where the funds were embezzled for auto company unions. Don't forget that the government was the agent that compelled and supported the shitty loans in the first place. The funds sent to the banks, many of which didn't need them, have also netted quite a tidy profit.
Qualitative easing? Not sure what will be the result of that. I see no reason to be overly concerned.Quote:
What is the most beneficial policy or action of central banks? Trying to maintain price stability, consistent low inflation, or full employment? Staving off the deflationary spiral?
Not price stability. Price of what? Full employment is unhealthy. Around 5% unemployment is the sign of a healthy, vibrant economy. The others, yes, that is what the Fed is for. I think it has done a pretty good job.Quote:
What problem did the federal reserve solve?
I think they have managed to counter much of the incredibly idiotic and harmful effects of legislative policy. They can't, of course, ameliorate all of the idiots' damage but I think they have managed to even shit out as much as anything could.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14071487 - 03/05/11 03:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Because I think it is beneficial and I find the anti-bank hyperventilation ridiculous and a distraction.
Don't confuse anti-central bank with anti-bank. I fully support free banking.
I made a shorthand. I suppose I shouldn't have.Quote:
So do you think TARP and quantitative easing are beneficial?
TARP absolutely. Except for the part where the funds were embezzled for auto company unions. Don't forget that the government was the agent that compelled and supported the shitty loans in the first place. The funds sent to the banks, many of which didn't need them, have also netted quite a tidy profit.
Qualitative easing? Not sure what will be the result of that. I see no reason to be overly concerned.Quote:
What is the most beneficial policy or action of central banks? Trying to maintain price stability, consistent low inflation, or full employment? Staving off the deflationary spiral?
Not price stability. Price of what? Full employment is unhealthy. Around 5% unemployment is the sign of a healthy, vibrant economy. The others, yes, that is what the Fed is for. I think it has done a pretty good job.Quote:
What problem did the federal reserve solve?
I think they have managed to counter much of the incredibly idiotic and harmful effects of legislative policy. They can't, of course, ameliorate all of the idiots' damage but I think they have managed to even shit out as much as anything could.
TARP was a loss to taxpayers. The profit on the infusion of cash to banks was dwarfed(i think 1:10) by the losses on AIG and the auto industry. Regardless, any profit gained was not worth strengthening the incestuous relationship between the banks and government through paulson's deals for partial ownership. I don't think that the government causing a problem is a good reason for needing the government to fix it. More problems are caused. Why "absolutely?" What did it accomplish or prevent?
Maintaining price stability, consistent low inflation, and full employment are the three directives of the federal reserve. You really think the fed has done a good job the last 10 years? What about the housing bubble and financial crises?
I'm not sure how you think that the federal reserve "managed to counter much of the incredibly idiotic and harmful effects of legislative policy." They have only piled on with their low interest rate/stimulate demand/Keynesian nonsense.
And did you read Judge Vinson's recent ruling on Obama's motion to clarify? It's dripping with condescension. Just awesome.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
Edited by d33p (03/05/11 03:50 PM)
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ScavengerType


Registered: 01/24/08
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14071537 - 03/05/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Johnm, do you mean development and sustained growth in the national economy or world wide? The policy differences are barely notable however they will change the answer only a little.
And no there is no agreement. Currently there is a war going on between neo-liberal economic theory and classical (heavily Keynesian) economic theory for stimulating development and growth.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (03/05/11 04:01 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: d33p]
#14071590 - 03/05/11 04:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:
TARP was a loss to taxpayers. The profit on the infusion of cash to banks was dwarfed(i think 1:10) by the losses on AIG and the auto industry. Regardless, any profit gained was not worth strengthening the incestuous relationship between the banks and government through paulson's deals for partial ownership. I don't think that the government causing a problem is a good reason for needing the government to fix it. More problems are caused. Why "absolutely?" What did it accomplish or prevent?
Like I said, TARP, as it was written, was profitable. Even AIG will end up being at worst even. All the losses will come from the auto companies which were never supposed to be involved. Partial ownership of what? The auto companies?
Of course there is a relationship between banks and government. They pay huge taxes. They fuel investment and business. It is stupid for the government not to have a close relationship with banks.
And yeah, if the government caused the mess they should fix it. That isn't happening, though, they're still talking about forcing banks to lend money to bums.Quote:
Maintaining price stability, consistent low inflation, and full employment are the three directives of the federal reserve. You really think the fed has done a good job the last 10 years? What about the housing bubble and financial crises?
Full employment is a pipe dream and harmful. The housing bubble was caused by the government aggressively interfering in the housing market, which Greenspan warned about.Quote:
I'm not sure how you think that the federal reserve "managed to counter much of the incredibly idiotic and harmful effects of legislative policy." They have only piled on with their low interest rate/stimulate demand/Keynesian nonsense.
The Fed interest rates are only relevant to interbank transactions. The Fed aren't the Keynesians. The social engineering jackasses on the left are.Quote:
And did you read Judge Vinson's recent ruling on Obama's motion to clarify? It's dripping with condescension. Just awesome.
Yeah. There's another judge who found them in contempt about the drilling permit moratorium in the Gulf. Obama doesn't need no steenking law. He is the law.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14071926 - 03/05/11 05:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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the consensus right now seems to be to throw more money at the wealthy and make everyone else into slave labour.. and call it "balancing the budget"...
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