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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14071983 - 03/05/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: Johnm, do you mean development and sustained growth in the national economy or world wide? The policy differences are barely notable however they will change the answer only a little.
The question presupposes a system whos growth can be measured: this can be any identifiable economic system, from the world to the nation. If we are considering the nation, then it makes sense that it is possible that positive economic developments in one nation may be at the expense of other external groups (taking market share, et cet), but this seems incidental as it doesn't affect whether the system being examined is growing or not.
My thoughts were focused on the state, nation, and so forth, but I don't imagine any reason to limit the discussion to these: if a poster has an argument to distinguish them, then they may certainly post it.
Quote:
Annapurna1 said: the consensus right now seems to be to throw more money at the wealthy and make everyone else into slave labour.. and call it "balancing the budget"...
no
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14072232 - 03/05/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Embracing free market economics is the best and most efficient way for people to determine wants and needs, and for businessmen to identify and fulfill them.
Free trade without the initiation of force and/or state intervention.
So basically; the most complete lack of "government policy" possible.
It's a mistake to think that a small number of government is smart enough to centrally plan policies that most efficiently Identifies demands, and most efficiently utilized resources.
Government ALWAYS messes it up for precisely that reason. A small group of central planners is NEVER smart enough to most efficiently Utilize resources and fulfull human wants and needs.
Free individuals making voluntary decisions in a free market is the only, and most efficient way for wants/needs to be most fulfilled with available resources.
Otherwise, the whole pricing mechanism gets distorted, and the economy suffers and does not sustain.
In short, the free market price mechanism is the best "policy" for development and sustained growth.
Edited by Shins (03/05/11 06:41 PM)
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14072558 - 03/05/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Annapurna1 said: the consensus right now seems to be to throw more money at the wealthy and make everyone else into slave labour.. and call it "balancing the budget"...
no
why not?...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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AlphaFalfa
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14073819 - 03/06/11 12:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no consensus.
There are many theories.
Like for example, the theory of technological innovation.
When peak oil occurs or environmental problems occur, economists claim that instead of involving these issues into their analysis that human innovation will subdue the outcomes of this problem.
I guesse it makes sense.
I don't think its the safest way, but it might work.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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gluke bastid
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14075265 - 03/06/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Sustained Growth" in the title of this thread doesn't mean the same thing as "sustainable growth," does it? Because sustainable growth is a paradox.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: gluke bastid]
#14075512 - 03/06/11 12:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Depends.
Sustainable for how long? The end of time?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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gluke bastid
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#14075677 - 03/06/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: Depends.
Sustainable for how long? The end of time?
Of course not.
But growth is limited by the availability of the resources required to grow. Clearly the earth is only so big, and there is only so much stuff to consume to fuel economic growth. Economies that are modeled on indefinite growth have a fundamental design flaw, unless they are adaptable enough to change which resources they consume or how they consume them over the course of time.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Annapurna1]
#14076240 - 03/06/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: the consensus right now seems to be to throw more money at the wealthy and make everyone else into slave labour.. and call it "balancing the budget"...
if by wealthy, you really mean chinese industry, then yes
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ScavengerType


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14079439 - 03/07/11 02:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well I suppose I'll try to cover the both.
In the run up to the first and second world wars one of the major factors limiting trade was rampant tariffs. This has morphed into a rationale among free-trade hawks that tariffs themselves are the problem. Funny enough since the nation that most needs import tariffs is just that nation that is the free trade hawk of the world.
Following world war 2 when Keynes was still alive he made a proposal of a world economic system that could govern trade and tariffs. There would be a global banking currency which would have to be traded between nations at a global trade bank. If a country had an excessive trade surpluses they would receive a tariff on all exports and when countries had trade deficits they would receive a tariff on imports. Effectively this would help balance trade deficits and he had suggested that the money made could finance systems like the UN. This system was almost implemented if only the US congress failed to pass it. It would be interesting to see how a system such as this developed with the world banking system or globalized market. Though this piece of legislation could not be said to be immortal by any respect it did highlight that in some cases tariffs could assist financial stability.
Fast-forward to the present day where nearly every household has a LG or Samsung monitor/TV and every block has a Honda civic on it. You might wonder what role free markets have had in this reality and the fact of the matter is the only role they held was the fact that unregulated free markets put countries like the USA previously manufacturing the goods in a situation where they were closing down their manufacturing bases and importing foreign products. They did not on the other hand have anything to do with the formation of those industries. In actuality those brand names were basically started by pumping subsidies into developing them and putting tariffs on imported products of the same nature. Essentially without an elaborate explanation, the idea is to nurture infant industries into competitive institutions and then let them to the free market. If you are interested on the subject, one Ha-Joon Chang wrote a book called "Bad Samaritans the myth of free trade" which detailed the use of this approach quite heavily all the way back to the development of the english textile industry in the 1700s.
The other factor in the matter is regulation. It is no secret that Honda sells more fuel efficient cars because of government regulation. These regulations have not just helped japan meet limited supply for oil, but have helped their car companies be much more competitive in the world. Something much fewer may know is that in Canada there are regulations that prevent institutions like Banks (or rather parts of them) and Cities from buying investments without a good idea of what they are investing in. This has prevented loads of Canadian institutions from befalling fates like those of other nations where cities and banks bought lots of those mortgage bundles that blew up in 08. I personally know people who working at a Canadian city hall were asked to invest and had to decline because of these regulations.
On the other hand you might see a film which won the Oscar for best documentary the other day called "Inside Job" about the financial crisis. It starts out with the country of Iceland, which with a small population was able to create a world based on sustainable energy/fisheries/consumption and a solid growing economy. Then they deregulated the banking industry and all the newly liberated banks ran out and borrowed 5x+ the GDP of the country to run it's affairs. If your familiar with the situation the banks royally screwed up and because of this the entire banking system of Iceland has been paralyzed, this has had a notably negative impact on the rest of the country's economy as well as sharply reducing the tax revenue once contributed by the stable banking sector.
I haven't covered many examples but it's pretty safe to say that well thought out plans of taxation and trade mechanisms can lead to sustainable growth and economic development. Mindless ideological platforms like Free-trade/deregulation as is exercised by neo-liberals often does not incentive's these aims and only achieves them so long as they co-inside with the profits of dominant companies and their directors. In Naomi Klein's critique of neo-liberal reforms called "The Shock Doctrine" she examines the development of neo-liberalism and notes that while countries where Milton Friedman had personally advised had seen economic gains, countries where economic policy was advised or set by his students experienced disastrous consequences. I suspect this either means that Freedman was more practical about his ideology than his students or (more likely) that the countries where he advised had taken his advice into consideration but used intelligent discretion as well.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: ScavengerType]
#14079497 - 03/07/11 02:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Fear the Boom and Bust" a Hayek vs. Keynes Rap Anthem
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they know about what they imagine they can design."
Edited by Shins (03/07/11 02:42 AM)
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14079587 - 03/07/11 03:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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ScavengerType


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: Shins]
#14080769 - 03/07/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't see what the point of that rap is, the fed has embraced deregulation and that is the reason for the US's current problem. Reagan the same guy who said "we're all Keynesians now" appointed Greenspan the neo-liberal to post the Fed. In actuality the Fed and economic regulation in the US has been run by neo-liberals since Reagan and they have used the same crys for free-markets and deregulation that is parroted by you and that rap. If that rap was made in the 1980s it would make sense but now it promotes a fictitious message that prevailing policy in the US is based on Keynes instead of Freedman.
Also blaming the failure of the bailouts and stimulus on Keynes is foolish. Many different documentaries like inside job had lobbed critiques of how the bailout process was made and massive amounts of the stimulus was wasted on tax cuts for the rich which even the most conservative economists in most countries agree don't stimulate growth or create jobs (as they are claimed to).
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: ScavengerType]
#14095649 - 03/09/11 11:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: I don't see what the point of that rap is, the fed has embraced deregulation and that is the reason for the US's current problem.
Please explain what you mean and what grounds you have to blame the "US's current problem" on it, i.e. fed embracing deregulation.
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ScavengerType


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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: johnm214]
#14096054 - 03/10/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well if you would care to watch inside job you'd be able to see a lot of the key points.
Frankly there was no review as to the rating system of the mortgage investment bundles, there should be no way that the style of rating system that was used with these should have been allowed, never-mind been allowed to rate as such. The rating system seemed to be designed to create a misleading impression, it had three tiers, they were "AAA" "AA" and "BBB" does that sound misleading to you? Most of them were rated AAA anyway so even if you understood the rating system it wasn't adequately able to measure the quality of the investments. This fake rating system was somewhere where the fed should have stepped in and forced them to actually rate the investments, hell I think that people who were involved in creating/defrauding the rating system should possibly be charged criminally.
Another good example is and I can't recall which firm it was exactly (see the film) but some firm(s) were making recommendations to their investors to buy stocks they had, then selling those stocks and buying derivatives that bet on the failure of those stocks. This is downright criminal, anyone who makes a decision to do this to their clients should go to jail. What made it worse in the case of the firm in the documentary is that the people who were making the recommendations were simultaneously sending internal e-mails that called the investments crap.
A good example the film gives is one that is from the example I gave related to Canada, regarding the Fed under Greenspan's refusal of the Glass–Steagall act, which could have prevented the losses from being so great by preventing the banks from being able to gamble away specific types of banked assets on speculative investments.
These are just three examples off the top of my head, even re-reading what I wrote I can see that there are numerous negligent aspects that I should have mentioned but, 3 is easily enough for now.
Edited by ScavengerType (03/10/11 01:17 AM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: ScavengerType]
#14096853 - 03/10/11 09:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: Well if you would care to watch inside job you'd be able to see a lot of the key points.
Frankly there was no review as to the rating system of the mortgage investment bundles, there should be no way that the style of rating system that was used with these should have been allowed, never-mind been allowed to rate as such. The rating system seemed to be designed to create a misleading impression, it had three tiers, they were "AAA" "AA" and "BBB" does that sound misleading to you? Most of them were rated AAA anyway so even if you understood the rating system it wasn't adequately able to measure the quality of the investments. This fake rating system was somewhere where the fed should have stepped in and forced them to actually rate the investments, hell I think that people who were involved in creating/defrauding the rating system should possibly be charged criminally.
The rating system has many more tiers than that but that is irrelevant to your failure to ascribe the fraud to the correct parties. The fraudsters were the people who borrowed money they couldn't pay back. People who were encouraged and enabled to take loans by government coercion of lenders. I do not believe the Fed is responsible for the ratings system. If any agency is it is the SEC. The Fed has limited powers.Quote:
Another good example is and I can't recall which firm it was exactly (see the film) but some firm(s) were making recommendations to their investors to buy stocks they had, then selling those stocks and buying derivatives that bet on the failure of those stocks. This is downright criminal, anyone who makes a decision to do this to their clients should go to jail. What made it worse in the case of the firm in the documentary is that the people who were making the recommendations were simultaneously sending internal e-mails that called the investments crap.
I believe it was Goldman Sachs. So what? It is a huge company and there are disagreements within the company. There are deliberately segregated parts of the company. They also cater to different kinds of clients who have different investment goals. Further, any of their clients could have done the same hedging. Finally almost every entity that got snagged consisted of financial professionals who just got too lazy to perform their own due diligence.Quote:
A good example the film gives is one that is from the example I gave related to Canada, regarding the Fed under Greenspan's refusal of the Glass–Steagall act, which could have prevented the losses from being so great by preventing the banks from being able to gamble away specific types of banked assets on speculative investments.
The Fed cannot refuse anything. Repeal of Glass Steagall was a Congressional action. The Fed had nothing to do with it. Quote:
These are just three examples off the top of my head, even re-reading what I wrote I can see that there are numerous negligent aspects that I should have mentioned but, 3 is easily enough for now.
All 3 crap.
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natural medicine
PoppyEnthusiast

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Re: Is there a consensus on what general economic policy leads to devlopment, sustained growth? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14098712 - 03/10/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: There is no consensus. There never will be.
^^^^^^this^^^^^^
Or to clarify: No
One word answers are fun
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