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Droz
Love of Life



Registered: 10/15/00
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Loc: Floorida
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Meditating without meditating.
#14058656 - 03/03/11 07:46 AM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Would you be better off with not thinking anything and having a silent mind all day?
Or is better to have thoughts?
Thoughts in mind can lead to confusion and delusion.
I'd say staying in a mind of unknowing and lack there of could be enlightening, so say the less the better.
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,848
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Droz]
#14059568 - 03/03/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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better not to be dull - I truly believe that way lies premature alzheimers.
thinking does not necessarily entail disconnection from body and breath. meditation is a form of thinking that is like yoga stretching; essentially your mind gets into mental poses with the breath.
the mind is a) the stage, b) what plays on the stage, and c) the bare awareness that watches what plays on the stage. C is a form of b, and b&c are inseparable from a.
making that play together is meditation, and it builds a good kind of strength.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Depends what you think about in my opinion, Things that are based on insecurities or what others think are better left alone.(Unless you're overcoming those insecurities) But feeding the insecurities.. well that's just digging your hole deeper
And if you actually already dug a hole in your mind about something, I'd think it to beneficial for you to try to figure your way out. Same with trying to figure things out, because if you don't understand something it will linger in your mind.
So I'd say think of only things that you can gain something from. Think of nothing and gain nothing.
But once you are content with everything, a blank mind would IMO, keep you content.
I got a question on meditation as well.. Isn't trying to go to sleep a form of meditation?
Edited by giza (03/03/11 12:34 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Droz]
#14059739 - 03/03/11 12:29 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: Would you be better off with not thinking anything and having a silent mind all day?
Or is better to have thoughts?
Thoughts in mind can lead to confusion and delusion.
I'd say staying in a mind of unknowing and lack there of could be enlightening, so say the less the better.
Depends on if you're trying to keep your job.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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R2-D2
horseradish



Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 945
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Icelander]
#14060011 - 03/03/11 01:16 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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If you plan on moving around, you'll certainly be performing cognitions of some sort
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JohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: R2-D2]
#14060378 - 03/03/11 02:15 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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The mind will always think. You can calm it down and quiet it, even silence it for some time. But if you want to go about your day you have to think.
But, you don't have to be attached and involved in your thoughts. Watch them, see them, but don't be them.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Droz]
#14060944 - 03/03/11 03:55 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Meditation is a great practice with its own advantages, but I feel there are a lot of things one can do that have similar benefits. A nature hike is just one example.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Droz]
#14062645 - 03/03/11 08:14 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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One line of thought might be that bringing thought to it's absolute minimum is the goal of a hard core Zen practitioner. Another line of thought is that unless one desires to be a hard core Zen practitioner (monk), there's a lot of thought necessary to have a life.
One way to look at it, no matter which path, is that no more than is necessary, is necessary. In that sense, a lack of thought could end up detrimental to a person's life, depending on what their goals and desires were. I've read that for many hopeful Westerners, their ideas of enlightenment led them to empty places they didn't want to be, feeling as though they gave up aspects of life to which they couldn't return.
I think thinking can be a healthy thing to do, and I think some down time is also a good idea. Middle road FTW?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Rahz]
#14063037 - 03/03/11 09:04 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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I think (fully aware of the irony) that observation of thought is the key.
If it's not a reflection of how you wish to be see where it came from and affect change.
If it is, then let it expand and see where it goes.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,848
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: giza]
#14063113 - 03/03/11 09:19 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
giza said:
I got a question on meditation as well.. Isn't trying to go to sleep a form of meditation?
yes this is really about the mental movement in a still body with a salient change in mental state, breathing and calming are involved. I would say that it is very much a natural form of meditation.
sitting meditation and even lying down meditation intend, however to increase wakefulness in the position as opposed to drifting from the point of concentration.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,848
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Rahz]
#14063149 - 03/03/11 09:25 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: One line of thought might be that bringing thought to it's absolute minimum is the goal of a hard core Zen practitioner. Another line of thought is that unless one desires to be a hard core Zen practitioner (monk), there's a lot of thought necessary to have a life.
bringing the thought to the moment and breathing it, being it without adding anything are ideal.
being with it and making no distinction is excellent
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Cups]
#14063206 - 03/03/11 09:35 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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You and redgreenvines both make excellent points.
...I have much to think about.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Rahz]
#14063226 - 03/03/11 09:38 PM (13 years, 2 days ago) |
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Cups comment recommends a more active approach perhaps indicating some level of dualism, and redgreenvines comment seems closer to pure awareness.
Which is right?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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PsylioSynethesis
Experimentalist



Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 512
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: better not to be dull - I truly believe that way lies premature alzheimers.
thinking does not necessarily entail disconnection from body and breath. meditation is a form of thinking that is like yoga stretching; essentially your mind gets into mental poses with the breath.
the mind is a) the stage, b) what plays on the stage, and c) the bare awareness that watches what plays on the stage. C is a form of b, and b&c are inseparable from a.
making that play together is meditation, and it builds a good kind of strength.

The silent mind is what happens when one is satisfied and thinking will bring no further benefit. I think happiness is where you draw the line. Best to let thoughts come and go during the day, work through and let it pass. Easier to quite the mind during meditation.
-------------------- P~S
Edited by PsylioSynethesis (03/04/11 11:15 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,848
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Rahz]
#14067177 - 03/04/11 04:27 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Cups comment recommends a more active approach perhaps indicating some level of dualism, and redgreenvines comment seems closer to pure awareness.
Which is right?
well awareness without adding junk is important, as for no separation between observer and the observed, it's like I said, Mind (Stage), Mental Contents, and Observer all dance as one.
Mind sustains a sequence of gestalts arising and fading, Observer is watching what has been happening and becomes part of what is happening to the next instance of observation.
in mind, there is no essential separation of observer and phenomena, but there is a layering of moments (as they arise and fall away) which provides the ground for an illusion of separateness.
if you watch the gestalt process, separateness has no foothold. Later when doing your work it falls apart, then meditation provides a chance to relax and see the process in action again.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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^^I have no idea what you're talking about redgreenvinesman. 
It's nothing personal, but a gripe I have with almost everything I read about this kind of thing. Look at my post...it is simple and to the point. Comprehensible by almost anyone with little effort.
Words upon words, billions of words and terms and concepts. It can't possibly be that hard to explain...and if it is we don't understand it.
As for which is better...I don't know how to answer. I seem to have lost any sense of what is truly valuable and useful recently so I can't say for sure. 
However, from a purely humanistic POV I say my way. How many innovations and such have come from pure awareness monk types over the centuries? Conversely, how much has come from men who let their brains run and try to be the men they want to be?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Zenarchist23
Stranger
Registered: 02/27/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Cups]
#14068406 - 03/04/11 09:29 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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I disagree. The OP misses the point of meditation completely (don't worry, it's a common mistake).
Clinging to a mode of though (any mode, be it active though or "no-mind") is the problem, meditation is the technique to resolve the problem.
"If you meet the Buddha on the road, Kill Him" means "If you're trying to cut a plank of wood, don't cling to the hammer that the foreman gave you".
The experience can only be talked _around_. The key lies in controlling and evening out the breath cycle. Exercising this amount of control over a normally autonomous nervous function allow you to "hack" into the "mental-space" where observer and observed no long have a distinction.
I've got a post on another forum about the basic technique, brb.
Edited by Zenarchist23 (03/04/11 09:30 PM)
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Zenarchist23
Stranger
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 22
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Zenarchist23]
#14068473 - 03/04/11 09:43 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
This [technique] is the exact mechanism that Bodhidharma brought to China. His "Wall Staring Technique" or "Wall Gazing Technique" combines the sitting Zazen posture (to quiet our muscle-cortex, and thus thoughts/desires related to action/activity) and this '1 point staring' to quiet our visual processing. Thus, the contents of the mind become easier to recognize (as we have begun to filter out outside input). This also allows the brain to slip into the "alpha" range of 12-8 Hz, and even dip down into the "upper theta" (Theta is 4-7 hz). The key, tho is to have a White wall to stare at (this speeds the process of getting to the "alpha" wave states), as discovered by the "ganzfield" technique of placing ping-pong ball halves over your eyes and staring at a soft white light.
The general practice, as described by Bodhidharma:
Sit on a comfortable pillow (so that the base of the spine takes up as much wight as the knees), at arms length from the white wall (so that it fills the visual field). Sit in lotus with the spine propped up on the cushion's edge. If full lotus cannot be managed, then half-lotus will have to do. Place the tongue against the roof of the mouth, the underside of the tongue touching the roof (this is to further reduce the activity in the muscle cortex). Stare at a point on the wall just below eye level (so you're not constantly using the eye muscles to maintain the focus). If your mind wanders, turn your attention to your breath, in and out (use a simple count to follow the breath.. count to 10, then start over). If you see 'undulating figures' appear in your vision, this is a sign you are near an Alpha brain-state. Simply acknowledge them, but don't dwell on them. As thoughts arise, or sounds intrude from the environment, acknowledge them and then let them pass. If your mind clings to something, reorient it back to you breath (using the count if this is difficult).
Sounds simple, eh? It's not.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Zenarchist23]
#14068530 - 03/04/11 09:54 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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And then what?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Meditating without meditating. [Re: Zenarchist23]
#14068602 - 03/04/11 10:10 PM (13 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Zenarchist23 said:
Quote:
This [technique] is the exact mechanism that Bodhidharma brought to China. His "Wall Staring Technique" or "Wall Gazing Technique" combines the sitting Zazen posture (to quiet our muscle-cortex, and thus thoughts/desires related to action/activity) and this '1 point staring' to quiet our visual processing. Thus, the contents of the mind become easier to recognize (as we have begun to filter out outside input). This also allows the brain to slip into the "alpha" range of 12-8 Hz, and even dip down into the "upper theta" (Theta is 4-7 hz). The key, tho is to have a White wall to stare at (this speeds the process of getting to the "alpha" wave states), as discovered by the "ganzfield" technique of placing ping-pong ball halves over your eyes and staring at a soft white light.
The general practice, as described by Bodhidharma:
Sit on a comfortable pillow (so that the base of the spine takes up as much wight as the knees), at arms length from the white wall (so that it fills the visual field). Sit in lotus with the spine propped up on the cushion's edge. If full lotus cannot be managed, then half-lotus will have to do. Place the tongue against the roof of the mouth, the underside of the tongue touching the roof (this is to further reduce the activity in the muscle cortex). Stare at a point on the wall just below eye level (so you're not constantly using the eye muscles to maintain the focus). If your mind wanders, turn your attention to your breath, in and out (use a simple count to follow the breath.. count to 10, then start over). If you see 'undulating figures' appear in your vision, this is a sign you are near an Alpha brain-state. Simply acknowledge them, but don't dwell on them. As thoughts arise, or sounds intrude from the environment, acknowledge them and then let them pass. If your mind clings to something, reorient it back to you breath (using the count if this is difficult).
Sounds simple, eh? It's not.
I love exotic meditation techniques. I'll have to try this.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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