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InvisibledeCypher
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The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience
    #14064162 - 03/04/11 12:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Neuroscientists from the University of California at San Diego have found what they call the God module, a tiny locus of nerve cells in the frontal lobe that appears to be activated during religious experiences.  They discovered this neural machinery while studying epileptic patients who have intense mystical experiences during seizures.  Apparently the intense neural storms during a seizure stimulate the God module.  Tracking surface electrical activity in the brain with highly sensitive skin monitors, the scientists found a similar response when very religious nonepileptic persons were shown words and symbols evoking their spiritual beliefs.

A neurological basis for spiritual experience has long been postulated by evolutionary biologists because of the social utility of religious belief.  In response to reports of the San Diego research, Richard Harries, the Bishop of Oxford, said through a spokesman that "it would not be surprising if God had created us with a physical facility for belief."

When we can determine the neurological correlates of the variety of spiritual experiences that our species is capable of, we are likely to be able to enhance these experiences in the same way that we will enhance other human experiences.  With the next stage of evolution creating a new generation of humans that will be trillions of times more capable and complex than humans today, our ability for spiritual experience and insight is also likely to gain in power and depth.



from The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil

Thoughts?  Is a mystical experience produced by stimulating an area of the frontal lobe just as valid as one produced by prayer, meditation, or psychedelic drugs?  Is spirituality any less real if it's just a product of neuronal firing?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14064212 - 03/04/11 12:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A 'neuron' is another way of saying, "we don't know what the hell this is but here's a placeholder name." We don't actually know what we're working with when we talk about the brain or the physical. The physical seems to become less and less physical the closer you study it.

Besides, they know the visual cortex is what creates vision, and yet look how irrelevant that is to actually seeing.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: circastes]
    #14064252 - 03/04/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Actually we have a pretty good idea of how neurons work and interact with each other... this is what allows us to create artificial neural networks that do damn good jobs at recognizing people's faces and handwriting, predicting market fluctuations, etcetera.  And how the heck do you get that the visual cortex is irrelevant to actually seeing?  Whenever you see something, be it in a dream or reality, your visual cortex IS firing.


--------------------
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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14064296 - 03/04/11 01:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A interesting connection i have noticed is, in Biological science there is the pituitary gland, which function represents hormonal control of of all endocrine glands. In metaphysical science there is the chakras, each chakras associates with different endocrine glands, and emotional states. The third eye which represents the pituitary gland & pineal gland. Interesting enough the third eye is considered the "master" chakra, or seat of the soul. In scientific terms, the pituitary gland is also called the "Master gland" very similar concept as western science is damn new, and metaphysical science is way old.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14064503 - 03/04/11 02:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Actually we have a pretty good idea of how neurons work and interact with each other... this is what allows us to create artificial neural networks that do damn good jobs at recognizing people's faces and handwriting, predicting market fluctuations, etcetera.  And how the heck do you get that the visual cortex is irrelevant to actually seeing?  Whenever you see something, be it in a dream or reality, your visual cortex IS firing.



All we know is our models. The models are built on observed tendencies. We don't actually have any idea what a neuron is.

What I was saying in the last sentence was that, broadly expanding it, if you knew everything about the universe that would hardly explain music, beauty, literature, etc., or rather that all we know is what we want to know in order to get a specific task done, and we shade everything we touch with our paradigm, not realising the world is untouched, effectively unobserved.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: circastes]
    #14064565 - 03/04/11 03:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
All we know is our models. The models are built on observed tendencies. We don't actually have any idea what a neuron is.




We can observe neurons and their synaptic connections in a microscope; we know that they are cells with axons and dendrites, that they have a nucleus that contains DNA, that they fire only when the combination of inputs via their dendrites exceed a certain threshold, and so on and on.  In short, we do have a good idea what a neuron is.

Quote:

circastes said:
What I was saying in the last sentence was that, broadly expanding it, if you knew everything about the universe that would hardly explain music, beauty, literature, etc., or rather that all we know is what we want to know in order to get a specific task done, and we shade everything we touch with our paradigm, not realising the world is untouched, effectively unobserved.




The first part of your paragraph I sort of get; it is hard to explain subjective conscious experience purely from an empirical point of view indeed: this is literally the hard problem of consciousness.  Not entirely sure what you mean by the second half of your paragraph though... the empirical paradigm cannot be discarded if we seek to fully understand the world around us.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14064607 - 03/04/11 03:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:

Thoughts?




This is the last time I'll say this: Brain-states are Samadhis and have nothing to do with Nirvana. Using chemistry or magnetism to attain the former makes the latter less likely to occur.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Middleman]
    #14064610 - 03/04/11 03:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why, if you don't mind elaborating?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14064615 - 03/04/11 03:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How should I know? It's just an apparent observation. Something to do with truth and illusion...


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Middleman] * 2
    #14064694 - 03/04/11 04:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So brain-states/Samadhis are illusory, and Nirvana is true? Why wouldn't Nirvana have a corresponding brain-state like Samadhis do? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Poid]
    #14065301 - 03/04/11 09:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've wondered that myself, though it seems that it doesn't. It seems there is a lot of confusion regarding absolute and relative truth, as well as infinite, objective, and subjective being. None is not "better" than the other, they are co-efficient. that's the key to our next step to 'turquoise' Integral Awareness. Most Western religion denies Absolute self and most Eastern religion denies Relative self, the trick is being aware of both and the difference.

To paraphrase Mr. Wilber, one cannot be in deep sleep and awake or stoned and straight at the same time, though non-dual 'states' accessible from many different 'stages' of development. It's evolving, we can attain the same highest state as Buddha, yet from a higher stage of cognitive development. (Which would explain why most old-school mystics were sexists and racists.)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Middleman]
    #14065424 - 03/04/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Middle said:
I've wondered that myself, though it seems that it doesn't.




What are you basing this on?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher] * 2
    #14065496 - 03/04/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: deCypher]
    #14065554 - 03/04/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Is a mystical experience produced by stimulating an area of the frontal lobe just as valid as one produced by prayer, meditation, or psychedelic drugs?

All of it is an experience and pertains to our psyche. Stimulating that part of the frontal lobe would be a valid mystical or religious experience, if it produced a similar effect as psychedelics and meditation does. As long as I could reflect on the experience like I do when tripping and get the same psychological benefits I would say it's internally valid for me. I wouldn't be able to say its externally valid, because everyone gets different effects from altering their perception. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for others.

Is spirituality any less real if it's just a product of neuronal firing?

Isn't everything we do a product of neuronal firing?  Maybe if we find a good way to stimulate the religious nexus of neurons in our frontal lobe we will discover that we all posses a certain ingrained insight not learned from experience. Something that only differs, because we are using a subjective perspective to analyze it.

Through history a lot of people have had similar experiences with prayer, meditation or psychedelic drugs. Different parts of the world have now become connected through shared information/discoveries. We are now able to read how people, who never had contact before, experienced very similar insights from altering their mind. Secluded parts of the world have come to certain analogous realizations. Shamans, mystics and psychologists are using various methods or drugs to help understand how our brain works. Some of them have come to share certain philosophical insights because of this. These insights are not always scientific or objective, but they might have some psychological benefit when correctly understood.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #14065846 - 03/04/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The mystical experiences brought about by localized seizures in the temporal lobe have a specific flavor to them. Many of the mystical experiences out there don't fit the description, suggesting there may be lots to the picture we are still missing. I think the "God Spot" embodies quite a few of the more typical associations though. Such as onenes/God and destiny/fate.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Middleman]
    #14066137 - 03/04/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Middle said:
Quote:

deCypher said:

Thoughts?




This is the last time I'll say this: Brain-states are Samadhis and have nothing to do with Nirvana. Using chemistry or magnetism to attain the former makes the latter less likely to occur.




You know i"ve heard you say that a few times and I don't think it's true.  I think Samadhi is a taste of nirvana, because the relative "i" and the absolute nothingness are both two sides of the same coin, the I is just the dynamic principle of the absolute.  So a samadhi, where you go deep into the self and feel totally one and at peace, is a glimpse into your absolute nature in a sense, and certainly a precursor to realizing it. The reason there's no brain state for Nirvana, why it's more than just the ecstatic experience, is because it's completely outside this sensory bubble, it's that which observes the brain and the ecstasy and everything else.  I don't know how it works to reside there but I know it can be done.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: g00ru]
    #14066189 - 03/04/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Middle said:
I've wondered that myself, though it seems that it doesn't. It seems there is a lot of confusion regarding absolute and relative truth, as well as infinite, objective, and subjective being.


What is the main distinction between those types of truths, and what are the distinctions between those types of beings?


Quote:

Mr. Middle said:
None is not "better" than the other, they are co-efficient. that's the key to our next step to 'turquoise' Integral Awareness. Most Western religion denies Absolute self and most Eastern religion denies Relative self, the trick is being aware of both and the difference.


What is "turquoise Integral Awareness? How does Western religion deny Absolute self, and how does Eastern religion deny Relative self?



Quote:

guruu said:
The reason there's no brain state for Nirvana, why it's more than just the ecstatic experience, is because it's completely outside this sensory bubble, it's that which observes the brain and the ecstasy and everything else.  I don't know how it works to reside there but I know it can be done.


How do you know that?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: Poid]
    #14066204 - 03/04/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
The reason there's no brain state for Nirvana, why it's more than just the ecstatic experience, is because it's completely outside this sensory bubble, it's that which observes the brain and the ecstasy and everything else.  I don't know how it works to reside there but I know it can be done.


How do you know that?




Personal experience.


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: g00ru]
    #14066218 - 03/04/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So you're personally experiencing Nirvana? :ooo:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The God Spot: implications for the validity of the mystical experience [Re: g00ru] * 2
    #14066221 - 03/04/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You've personally verified that there is no brain state associated with Nirvana?  :undecided:


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