Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Making death anxiety more prominent? * 1
    #14064149 - 03/04/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing."
--Charles Bukowski

Do you think that if humanity's death anxiety was made more conscious as a whole that we would abandon the trivialities of life and get down to what really matters; i.e. loving each other and making our existence as happy as possible for the short time that we yet possess it?  If so, how could we do this?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblephoxyilluminata
Stranger
Female
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064164 - 03/04/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
"We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing."
--Charles Bukowski

Do you think that if humanity's death anxiety was made more conscious as a whole that we would abandon the trivialities of life and get down to what really matters; i.e. loving each other and making our existence as happy as possible for the short time that we yet possess it?  If so, how could we do this?



I really don't think so. For me, alleviating death anxiety would just prompt people to take more risks for more personal gain. More people being horrible to each other, more war, more violent crime, etc.

Forget family, if you don't fear death, having a family to carry on your legacy is less attractive (note, that many people still would have children and families of course, but it's one less reason to do so). Whether that's a bad thing or not, however, is up for debate.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedurantz
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14064234 - 03/04/11 12:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

alleviating death anxiety would just prompt people to take more risks for more personal gain.




but what would personal gain even mean? If we were no longer afraid of death then there would be no reason for personal gain...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: durantz]
    #14064246 - 03/04/11 12:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Making death anxiety more conscious is not the same thing as alleviating it; we would want people to become more aware of their impending mortality in this hypothetical thought experiment but this doesn't necessarily mean that their fear of death would go away.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedurantz
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064251 - 03/04/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Oh sorry! I misread it; more like filled in with words I thought were there...

well yes I agree with phoxy that it would probably make people even more irrational...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064295 - 03/04/11 01:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Do you think that if humanity's death anxiety was made more conscious as a whole that we would abandon the trivialities of life and get down to what really matters; i.e. loving each other and making our existence as happy as possible for the short time that we yet possess it?


I think each individual would react to a heightened awareness of death anxiety differently; I don't think that being more aware of death anxiety would necessarily cause one to "get down to what really matters", especially since it's death anxiety that's to blame for preventing us from getting down to what really matters. Simply being aware of death does not make it easier to get down to what really matters, one must actually alleviate the fear of it in order to do that.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/04/11 01:57 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14064362 - 03/04/11 01:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You don't think becoming more aware of death or at least consciously thinking about the fact that you will die would prompt more people to discard what's less meaningful in favor of what makes them maximally happy in the days or years they have before their death?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064406 - 03/04/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why would me thinking about the fact that I will die prompt others to try to discard what's less meaningful in favor of what makes them maximally happy in the days or years they have before their death? :undecided:


I think people react to death anxiety in two main ways: some people become terrified and allow it to devour their lives, and others learn how to either deal with it or even alleviate it somewhat. Some might react to a heightened awareness of death by creating a whole bunch of coping mechanisms, others might react to it by doing their best to live a happy life.

But to answer your question, I do think more people would do what makes them maximally happy if each human's awareness of their own mortality increased significantly; I don't, however, believe that an increase in awareness of death is a definite cure for the blues. :sad:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/04/11 02:06 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14064553 - 03/04/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

My use of 'you' in my first sentence was intended to refer to each member of the people I talk about in the latter half of the sentence; apologies if that was confusing.  I do agree that an increase in awareness of death is not a definite cure for the blues, but on the whole an increase for humanity at large might still be a beneficial thing.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064585 - 03/04/11 03:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
...on the whole an increase for humanity at large might still be a beneficial thing.


I think it would be beneficial only to those who can handle it; it could potentially devastate those who cannot handle it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14064595 - 03/04/11 03:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Some might react to a heightened awareness of death by creating a whole bunch of coping mechanisms




Past a certain point of awareness of mortality wouldn't any coping mechanism fail?  Perhaps society would be driven into mass panic if the majority of human beings react irrationally to this realization but after a given time of turmoil they would realize that doing what makes them maximally happy is what they ought to be doing.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064628 - 03/04/11 03:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Some might react to a heightened awareness of death by creating a whole bunch of coping mechanisms




Past a certain point of awareness of mortality wouldn't any coping mechanism fail?


Do you mean degree of awareness? I don't know if any coping mechanism would fail past a certain degree of awareness, why would it?


Quote:

deCypher said:
Perhaps society would be driven into mass panic if the majority of human beings react irrationally to this realization but after a given time of turmoil they would realize that doing what makes them maximally happy is what they ought to be doing.


Irrational fears (i.e. phobias) are hard to cure, and they often prevent people from doing what makes them maximally happy; death anxiety is basically a phobia, it prevents people from doing what makes them maximally happy, and it's not very easy to treat/cure.

Lots of people with phobias know that what makes them maximally happy is what they ought to be doing, but many of them can't do that due to their fears.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/04/11 12:28 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: durantz]
    #14065055 - 03/04/11 08:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Oh sorry! I misread it; more like filled in with words I thought were there...

well yes I agree with phoxy that it would probably make people even more irrational...





I've been saying this for a long time.  A lot of lust for power and unusable wealth would go away imo.  There would be a lot less religion and a lot more guiltless lovemaking.

Also imo the need for "spirituality" would disappear or alter greatly.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (03/04/11 08:56 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedurantz
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Icelander]
    #14065192 - 03/04/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I've been saying this for a long time.  A lot of lust for power and unusable wealth would go away imo.  They're would be a lot less religion and a lot more guiltless lovemaking.




Is this from conquering death anxiety?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: durantz]
    #14065205 - 03/04/11 09:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No. Death anxiety cannot be fully conquered imo. This would result from facing and accepting our death anxiety and bringing it fully into consciousness. For more detail on how this would work you can read Ernest Becker's book Denial of Death.  A book, imo, everyone should read.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedurantz
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Icelander]
    #14065222 - 03/04/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So how would bringing death anxiety to the fore of our consciousness help?

Thanks for the tip on the book. Will see if I can find it at the library.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: durantz]
    #14065315 - 03/04/11 09:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well if Becker is correct the will to amass huge reserves of money and power is an unconscious attempt at control of life and gaining immortality.  That's just one of many.

Were we to see why we were additively acting we might then be able to make other choices that may support our happiness and well being more than the choices we were currently making. Most likely to the benefit of all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14065397 - 03/04/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean degree of awareness? I don't know if any coping mechanism would fail past a certain degree of awareness, why would it?





I'm using degree and point interchangeably here.  I see coping mechanisms fail once you reach a high enough level of awareness simply because the realization of one's death becomes too strong to be repressed or denied by whatever flimsy shield you've constructed against it.  :shrug:

Also, I'm not c0sm0nautt but you quoted my words as attributed to him... :nono:  But I'll go ahead and answer anyway: :tongue:

Quote:

Poid said:
Irrational fears (i.e. phobias) are hard to cure, and they often prevent people from doing what makes them maximally happy; death anxiety is basically a phobia, it prevents people from doing what makes them maximally happy, and it's not very easy to treat/cure.

Lots of people with phobias know that what makes them maximally happy is what they ought to be doing, but many of them can't do that due to their fears.




Hmm, you may be right.  But can you think of any better way to convince humanity at large to discard their meaningless activities and cut straight to the chase of gettin' happy?  In particular, the Raymond K. Hessel scene from Fight Club comes to mind as an example of what I'm getting at; unfortunately the only versions I could find of the clip on Youtube were in foreign languages.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14066145 - 03/04/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Do you mean degree of awareness? I don't know if any coping mechanism would fail past a certain degree of awareness, why would it?





I'm using degree and point interchangeably here.


Aight. :cool:


Quote:

deCypher said:
I see coping mechanisms fail once you reach a high enough level of awareness simply because the realization of one's death becomes too strong to be repressed or denied by whatever flimsy shield you've constructed against it.  :shrug:


But isn't it technically possible for a person's coping mechanisms to compensate for the increase of death awareness by becoming more resilient? Lots of people use coping mechanisms to help them avoid dealing with and being aware of uncomfortable truths; their shields remain intact, even though their awareness of what's being shielded is somewhat high.


Quote:

deCypher said:
Also, I'm not c0sm0nautt but you quoted my words as attributed to him... :nono:  But I'll go ahead and answer anyway: :tongue:


Look again. :wink:

:voila:


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Irrational fears (i.e. phobias) are hard to cure, and they often prevent people from doing what makes them maximally happy; death anxiety is basically a phobia, it prevents people from doing what makes them maximally happy, and it's not very easy to treat/cure.

Lots of people with phobias know that what makes them maximally happy is what they ought to be doing, but many of them can't do that due to their fears.




Hmm, you may be right.  But can you think of any better way to convince humanity at large to discard their meaningless activities and cut straight to the chase of gettin' happy?


I feel that people generally choose to be involved in activities that have meaning to them, and that result in some sort of joy; gettin' happy is not easy for everyone, so I would imagine it would be hard to convince humanity at large to do what's necessary in order to be happy--some people will be more easily convinced than others.

I don't think what you call people's "meaningless activities" are what prevent people from being happy, I think they participate in such activities in order to gain some enjoyment out of life.


Quote:

deCypher said:
In particular, the Raymond K. Hessel scene from Fight Club comes to mind as an example of what I'm getting at; unfortunately the only versions I could find of the clip on Youtube were in foreign languages.  :lol:


:orry:

Yeah I haven't seen that movie straight through yet--I've seen parts of it, but I've never sat through the entire thing.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14066241 - 03/04/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
But isn't it technically possible for a person's coping mechanisms to compensate for the increase of death awareness by becoming more resilient? Lots of people use coping mechanisms to help them avoid dealing with and being aware of uncomfortable truths; their shields remain intact, even though their awareness of what's being shielded is somewhat high.




It's possible, but is any shield utterly immune, no matter how increased the awareness is?

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Also, I'm not c0sm0nautt but you quoted my words as attributed to him... :nono:  But I'll go ahead and answer anyway: :tongue:


Look again. :wink:

:voila:




"Edited by Poid (03/04/11 11:28 AM)"

:hehehe:

Quote:

Poid said:
I feel that people generally choose to be involved in activities that have meaning to them, and that result in some sort of joy; gettin' happy is not easy for everyone, so I would imagine it would be hard to convince humanity at large to do what's necessary in order to be happy--some people will be more easily convinced than others.

I don't think what you call people's "meaningless activities" are what prevent people from being happy, I think they participate in such activities in order to gain some enjoyment out of life.




I guess what I'm saying is that many people appear to be missing the chance to get more enjoyment out of their life because they aren't fully grokking the fact that they will eventually die--no need to convince humanity to do what's necessary in order to be the happiest they can be when they can convince themselves upon reaching this realization.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
In particular, the Raymond K. Hessel scene from Fight Club comes to mind as an example of what I'm getting at; unfortunately the only versions I could find of the clip on Youtube were in foreign languages.  :lol:


:orry:

Yeah I haven't seen that movie straight through yet--I've seen parts of it, but I've never sat through the entire thing.




For shame, Poid!  Stream that bitch online if you have to; IMO it's one of the best movies to truly capture the meaninglessness of life (and perhaps a means of escaping said lack of meaning).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14066314 - 03/04/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
But isn't it technically possible for a person's coping mechanisms to compensate for the increase of death awareness by becoming more resilient? Lots of people use coping mechanisms to help them avoid dealing with and being aware of uncomfortable truths; their shields remain intact, even though their awareness of what's being shielded is somewhat high.




It's possible, but is any shield utterly immune, no matter how increased the awareness is?


I can't say for sure, how about you? :smirk:


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I feel that people generally choose to be involved in activities that have meaning to them, and that result in some sort of joy; gettin' happy is not easy for everyone, so I would imagine it would be hard to convince humanity at large to do what's necessary in order to be happy--some people will be more easily convinced than others.

I don't think what you call people's "meaningless activities" are what prevent people from being happy, I think they participate in such activities in order to gain some enjoyment out of life.




I guess what I'm saying is that many people appear to be missing the chance to get more enjoyment out of their life because they aren't fully grokking the fact that they will eventually die...


I agree with that. :thumbup:


Quote:

deCypher said:
...no need to convince humanity to do what's necessary in order to be the happiest they can be when they can convince themselves upon reaching this realization.


Well, again, some people will find it more difficult to be happy than others, and many of them won't even bother. I think people who have a relatively easy time getting over death anxiety don't need much convincing to do what's necessary in order to be the happiest they can be; people who have a hard time getting over death anxiety, however, will probably need at least some convincing in order to motivate them to persevere until they reach their goal of being the happiest they can be.


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
In particular, the Raymond K. Hessel scene from Fight Club comes to mind as an example of what I'm getting at; unfortunately the only versions I could find of the clip on Youtube were in foreign languages.  :lol:


:orry:

Yeah I haven't seen that movie straight through yet--I've seen parts of it, but I've never sat through the entire thing.




For shame, Poid!  Stream that bitch online if you have to; IMO it's one of the best movies to truly capture the meaninglessness of life (and perhaps a means of escaping said lack of meaning).


Really? I just got a laptop last night, so I just might do that. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14066366 - 03/04/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
It's possible, but is any shield utterly immune, no matter how increased the awareness is?


I can't say for sure, how about you? :smirk:




Likewise I cannot say for sure, but I doubt it.

Quote:

Poid said:
people who have a hard time getting over death anxiety, however, will probably need at least some convincing in order to motivate them to persevere until they reach their goal of being the happiest they can be.




Maybe; I would think the hard part would involve making them give up the shields that prevent them from fully grokking their death anxiety... after that it's just a matter of time until they proceed to do what's logical (be the happiest they can be), provided of course that they are rational to begin with.  :lol:

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
For shame, Poid!  Stream that bitch online if you have to; IMO it's one of the best movies to truly capture the meaninglessness of life (and perhaps a means of escaping said lack of meaning).


Really? I just got a laptop last night, so I just might do that. :thumbup:




Nice dude, I think you'll definitely get a kick out of it.




Narrator: "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."  :rockon:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinejivJaN
yes
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14066408 - 03/04/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Most humans can't even understand the concept of death anxiety.
I watched the first episode of the show "Mad Men" the other day ,for some odd reason.


The tobacco companies were struggling with some allegations that cigarettes may be harmful and this was costing the them a lot of money.
She suggested to the AD men : All people have a death wish. Make the ad provoke that. Make the ad.. dangerous.

They brushed it off, laughed at it.. called it crazy.

I haven't watched the rest of the show , but im pretty sure they got around to introducing this method of advertisement.
Basically.. the higher the death anxiety, the better the consumer . This consumer ,naturally, will not be attracted by your ad.
|
v

"We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing."
--Charles Bukowski




Quote:

Check out the real situation
Nation war against nation
Where does it all begin Now?
Whoa where is it going to end?
But, it seems like: total destruction only solution, Yeah
Ain't no use, no one can stop us now.
Ain't no use, no one can stop us now.




btw..
im not really a sublime fan.
just like this 1 song.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14066485 - 03/04/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
It's possible, but is any shield utterly immune, no matter how increased the awareness is?


I can't say for sure, how about you? :smirk:




Likewise I cannot say for sure, but I doubt it.


I feel that for whatever hypothetical degree of awareness exists, there also exists a corresponding hypothetical shield  . :shrug:


Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
people who have a hard time getting over death anxiety, however, will probably need at least some convincing in order to motivate them to persevere until they reach their goal of being the happiest they can be.




Maybe; I would think the hard part would involve making them give up the shields that prevent them from fully grokking their death anxiety... after that it's just a matter of time until they proceed to do what's logical (be the happiest they can be), provided of course that they are rational to begin with:lol:


:thumbup:

I would think that people with high levels of death anxiety are generally less rational than people with relatively low levels of it...:strokebeard:


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
For shame, Poid!  Stream that bitch online if you have to; IMO it's one of the best movies to truly capture the meaninglessness of life (and perhaps a means of escaping said lack of meaning).


Really? I just got a laptop last night, so I just might do that. :thumbup:




Nice dude, I think you'll definitely get a kick out of it.




Narrator: "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."  :rockon:


Everyone I know who's watched it says it kicks ass; I have lots of dank pot club weed so I'll get to watch it stoned. :popcorn:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/04/11 05:12 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14066661 - 03/04/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think that if humanity's death anxiety was made more conscious as a whole that we would abandon the trivialities of life and get down to what really matters; i.e. loving each other and making our existence as happy as possible for the short time that we yet possess it?  If so, how could we do this?




Anything with a component of danger?

Standing on the edge is one idea, but the edge is relatively safe.

Jumping is another. I think most people get pushed. But is it nice to push?:shrug:

Although, I'm not sure happiness and love are what really matters, and in a sense I think we experience as much death anxiety as we need to give us the best chance at doing what does really matter for the masses (biologically speaking), which is to survive and procreate. Some hate and unhappiness could be beneficial.

BUT, I think there's something good to be said for your argument. Modern life isn't nearly as hazardous as the life our genetics developed in. This could suggest an inherent disadvantage, which from a biological perspective would manifest as low birth rates which are witnessed in the developed world. Sleepy.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Rahz]
    #14066694 - 03/04/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
This could suggest an inherent disadvantage, which from a biological perspective would manifest as low birth rates which are witnessed in the developed world.


You mean like in China, right? :japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14066736 - 03/04/11 02:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

China is fairly unique in that regard.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Rahz]
    #14066770 - 03/04/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:orry:


What about India? India is a pretty developed nation, and its population is like 1 billion. :ghandi:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14066812 - 03/04/11 03:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I mean unique in it's population strategy, as compared to most developed nations. China, as well as India, are still developing anyway.

As China develops, their need for strict population control reduces... it becomes voluntary, same as in developed nations.



--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Rahz]
    #14066847 - 03/04/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I mean unique in it's population strategy, as compared to most developed nations. China, as well as India, are still developing anyway.


*its:nerd:

Some parts of each nation, like their major cities for example, are as developed as any developed nation. :shrug:


Quote:

Rahz said:
As China develops, their need for strict population control reduces... it becomes voluntary, same as in developed nations.


It becomes voluntary? What makes you think that? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14066889 - 03/04/11 03:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Some parts of each nation, like their major cities for example, are as developed as any developed nation.




Yes, I know that, but they are still considered developing nations.

Quote:

It becomes voluntary? What makes you think that?




They are already talking about relaxing the laws. Citizens in developed nations don't have as many children (rate over time).


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Rahz]
    #14066937 - 03/04/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Some parts of each nation, like their major cities for example, are as developed as any developed nation.




Yes, I know that, but they are still considered developing nations.


Yes, but you were talking about the developed world, not developed nations; wouldn't any developed portion of the world be considered part of the developed world?

Quote:

Rahz said:
This could suggest an inherent disadvantage, which from a biological perspective would manifest as low birth rates which are witnessed in the developed world.




Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

It becomes voluntary? What makes you think that?




They are already talking about relaxing the laws.


Source?


Quote:

Rahz said:
Citizens in developed nations don't have as many children (rate over time).


I think that's probably generally true. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14067038 - 03/04/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, but you were talking about the developed world, not developed nations; wouldn't any developed portion of the world be considered part of the developed world?




Yes, developed world, and in that sense it could be inferred, quite easily I might add, that I was talking about those parts of undeveloped countries, which are developed, and excluding those parts which are not, which leads to the same situation, and by saying "China" you were indicating the country as a whole, and not exclusively referring to a subsection of China's population, which is why I answered in the way I did.  :nonono:

Quote:

Source?




Various ones. It was of interest to me so I researched it some time ago, though I didn't keep information or links. Your fingers work as well as mine and it's way off topic. It is a minor point in the context of this discussion. Start your own thread if you're interested enough and I will contribute, in so much as it is entertaining for me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Icelander]
    #14067087 - 03/04/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"...an unconscious attempt at control of life and gaining immortality"
I'm doing that consciously. I must be doomed :eek:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Rahz]
    #14067197 - 03/04/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yes, but you were talking about the developed world, not developed nations; wouldn't any developed portion of the world be considered part of the developed world?




Yes, developed world, and in that sense it could be inferred, quite easily I might add, that I was talking about those parts of undeveloped countries, which are developed, and excluding those parts which are not...


That is precisely what I inferred, and it was quite easy. :cool:


Quote:

Rahz said:
...which leads to the same situation, and by saying "China" you were indicating the country as a whole, and not exclusively referring to a subsection of China's population, which is why I answered in the way I did.  :nonono:


Is China a developing country? -- Business 360 - CNN.com Blogs
Quote:

It almost seems there needs to be a third way to describe China – neither developed (which describes its impact on the global economy) nor developing (which describes the average wealth of its citizens). Can China have it both ways?



Developed country - Wikipedia
Quote:

The designations "developed" and "developing" are intended for statistical convenience and do not necessarily express a judgement about the stage reached by a particular country or area in the development process.



Hong Kong, which is in China, is listed as rank 21 (there are 42 ranks) by the UN HDI (Human Development Index).


Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Source?




Various ones. It was of interest to me so I researched it some time ago, though I didn't keep information or links. Your fingers work as well as mine and it's way off topic. It is a minor point in the context of this discussion. Start your own thread if you're interested enough and I will contribute, in so much as it is entertaining for me.


:lol:, you're not very familiar with the concept of 'burden of proof', are you?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/04/11 04:53 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14067263 - 03/04/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You're being nit-picky, and no, you didn't infer anything. All of that for nothing...

Quote:

This could suggest an inherent disadvantage, which from a biological perspective would manifest as low birth rates which are witnessed in the developed world.




Think about it.

Quote:

you're not very familiar with the concept of 'burden of proof', are you?




Of course I am, and you, knowing how long I've been here should, quite easily I might add, be able to infer that I had ulterior motives for not responding to your query in the manner you requested. Unless you care to start your thread on the ambiguity of national categorizations, I don't see the need to continue this discussion.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14067294 - 03/04/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I feel that for whatever hypothetical degree of awareness exists, there also exists a corresponding hypothetical shield for it.




You may be right; the mind does have an unusually powerful ability to repress/ignore/deny what's right in front of it.  Assuming that an individual has a finite ability to do so, though, all one would have to do is present the information that the individual doesn't want to accept in a sufficiently strong manner to overcome this ability.  :shrug2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14067355 - 03/04/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
...all one would have to do is present the information that the individual doesn't want to accept in a sufficiently strong manner to overcome this ability.  :shrug2:


Wouldn't that just prompt the creation of a new, stronger shield?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14067372 - 03/04/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I said assuming that the individual has a finite ability to create shields; thus we just have to present the information in an even more intense way once the individual has used his or her strongest possible shield.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14067530 - 03/04/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I suppose you're right; do you think it's possible for a person to not be able to comprehend such information, even if it was presented to them in a way that was intense enough to break down their shields?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14067541 - 03/04/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'd say it would depend on how rational the person is.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14068036 - 03/04/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's what I think, too. :thumbup:



PS--what does "eternus nox" mean? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14068141 - 03/04/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Unless my online English to Latin translator has failed me miserably, "in eternus nox" means in eternal night.  :satansmoking:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14068242 - 03/04/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Cool. :shineon:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14068352 - 03/04/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Poid- 

Quote:


I would think that people with high levels of death anxiety are generally less rational than people with relatively low levels of it...:strokebeard:




How do you figure?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14068363 - 03/04/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Because death anxiety is an irrational fear, and people who have higher levels of anxiety tend to hold onto more irrational ideas/beliefs than people who don't have much anxiety.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14068415 - 03/04/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why is it irrational?  You're definitely going to die...everything you've done will definitely turn to dust...and  you will definitely be forgotten.

Add to that the high probability that "you" don't exist beyond the physical body and nothing transfers beyond death and it all get pretty depressing.

Would you consider death depression to be more rational?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14068594 - 03/04/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Why is it irrational?  You're definitely going to die...everything you've done will definitely turn to dust...and  you will definitely be forgotten.


It's irrational because the rational thing to do would be to not be afraid, and to enjoy life to the fullest.


Quote:

Cups said:
Add to that the high probability that "you" don't exist beyond the physical body and nothing transfers beyond death and it all get pretty depressing.


Yeah it can be depressing, so what? Are you saying that depression is necessarily a rational response?


Quote:

Cups said:
Would you consider death depression to be more rational?


I would say that such depression is a manifestation of death anxiety, so I would say they are both probably equally irrational.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14069937 - 03/05/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So, let's say you and I hook up and get some tacos.  Then I hit you on the head with my beer bottle and throw you in the trunk.

When you wake up I've got you handcuffed and your feet are bound.  I point to a big wood chipper and tell you I am definitely going to throw you into it at some point in the near future.

By your reasoning any fear at this point on your part would be irrational right?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14069971 - 03/05/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
By your reasoning any fear at this point on your part would be irrational right?


Yes; you know you're going to die, so what is there to be afraid of? It would be better to try to live the rest of your life in enjoyment.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/05/11 08:49 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14069987 - 03/05/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why is it irrational?

The fear is not irrational, but many or our reactions to it are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Icelander]
    #14070006 - 03/05/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Anxiety-produced fear is generally irrational:

Anxiety - Wikipedia
Quote:

...and although the fear is generally irrational, the perception of danger is very real.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14070012 - 03/05/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But in this case the danger is real.  :shrug:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14070027 - 03/05/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
But in this case the danger is real.  :shrug:


You mean the danger of dying some day? If so, what difference does that make? The fact remains that nobody knows what death will be like, so there's no rational reason to be afraid of it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14070055 - 03/05/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

^^Like that makes sense.

"I have no idea whats inside this black crevasse in rattlesnake country.  Because of this I am not afraid to stick my hand in there and find out."  :lol:

I used to think a lot like you Poid. Rationalizing and logically thinking my way out of problems.  Unfortunately a day came when all the pretext was lost..and there was just me and the problem.  It all came crashing down.

I'd keep it up though. If you can thoroughly convince yourself of what you've posted and never lose it I imagine you can lead a good life. :thumbup:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14070061 - 03/05/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Anxiety-produced fear is generally irrational:

Anxiety - Wikipedia
Quote:

...and although the fear is generally irrational, the perception of danger is very real.








Think about it this way.  If death anxiety is a permanent fixture of our makeup than it is rational to accept it as such. Then the only consideration is to choose shields that are the most beneficial.  Logic takes our emotional condition into account.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Icelander]
    #14070307 - 03/05/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
^^Like that makes sense.

"I have no idea whats inside this black crevasse in rattlesnake country.  Because of this I am not afraid to stick my hand in there and find out."  :lol:


Only an idiot would have no idea about what dangers could possibly exist inside crevasses in rattlesnake country; most sensible people would know not to stick their hand in there, and all sensible people have absolutely no idea about what death is like.

IYO, your analogy is shitty. :cool:


Quote:

Cups said:
I used to think a lot like you Poid. Rationalizing and logically thinking my way out of problems.  Unfortunately a day came when all the pretext was lost..and there was just me and the problem.  It all came crashing down.

I'd keep it up though. If you can thoroughly convince yourself of what you've posted and never lose it I imagine you can lead a good life. :thumbup:


Eh, I think I might be one of them "Live fast, die young." types. :rockon:



Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Anxiety-produced fear is generally irrational:

Anxiety - Wikipedia
Quote:

...and although the fear is generally irrational, the perception of danger is very real.








Think about it this way.  If death anxiety is a permanent fixture of our makeup than it is rational to accept it as such.


I think accepting it as such is rational, I just don't think the fear itself is necessarily rational (you said earlier that the fear is not irrational).


Quote:

Icelander said:
Then the only consideration is to choose shields that are the most beneficial.  Logic takes our emotional condition into account.


I agree with the first sentence, but don't quite understand what you're trying to say in the second one; may you elaborate?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14070883 - 03/05/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Only an idiot would have no idea about what dangers could possibly exist inside crevasses in rattlesnake country; most sensible people would know not to stick their hand in there, and all sensible people have absolutely no idea about what death is like.

IYO, your analogy is shitty. :cool:




You give yourself away Poid.

Perhaps you can explain to me why a "sensible" and, since you included death in there, presumably "rational" person would feel rattlesnakes are dangerous and "know not to stick there hand in there".


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14071011 - 03/05/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

fear is not irrational imo.  The cause of the fear may be however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14073701 - 03/06/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Only an idiot would have no idea about what dangers could possibly exist inside crevasses in rattlesnake country; most sensible people would know not to stick their hand in there, and all sensible people have absolutely no idea about what death is like.

IYO, your analogy is shitty. :cool:




You give yourself away Poid.

Perhaps you can explain to me why a "sensible" and, since you included death in there, presumably "rational" person would feel rattlesnakes are dangerous and "know not to stick there hand in there".


Because they are painful and they can kill. Duh.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14077926 - 03/06/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
...they can kill. Duh.




But the fear of death is irrational...

So maybe you can tell me again why they shouldn't put their hand in the hole?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups] * 1
    #14077968 - 03/06/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ZING


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078130 - 03/06/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
...they can kill. Duh.




But the fear of death is irrational...


Who said the fear of death is the only thing that such a person would be worried about in that situation? I already said that pain would be a motivator to not stick a hand in there.

It's possible that s/he has family, and is afraid that his/her death would traumatize them; this is not an irrational response.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14078164 - 03/06/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sure it is.  You'll not be around to be worried about them being traumatized.

Next.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078196 - 03/06/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How does that mean that it's an irrational response? The fact of the matter is that you are around while worrying about them being traumatized, and that worry is caused by imagining how the suffering that your death would put your loved ones through; there's nothing irrational about worrying about the well-being of your loved ones.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14078268 - 03/06/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OK But just so we're clear.

The, or at least one reason a rational person doesn't want to die isn't because they're afraid to...it's because they don't want their folks to be sad?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078284 - 03/06/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
...at least one reason a rational person doesn't want to die isn't because they're afraid to...it's because they don't want their folks to be sad?


Yes, that is correct. Of course, there may be other reasons as well.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14078294 - 03/06/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
"We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing."
--Charles Bukowski

Do you think that if humanity's death anxiety was made more conscious as a whole that we would abandon the trivialities of life and get down to what really matters; i.e. loving each other and making our existence as happy as possible for the short time that we yet possess it?  If so, how could we do this?




now I'll feel even less remorse when I steal your ipod kuz we're all fuckin dying anyway whatever :p


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14078313 - 03/06/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's like a tree not wanting to get cut down because it might squish a flower when it falls.

I don't know Poid...seems like a convenient way to explain will to live without fear of death.  Almost too convenient...


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078375 - 03/06/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
It's like a tree not wanting to get cut down because it might squish a flower when it falls.


How so? A rational person might feel fear when encountering death as a result of thinking about how their death will affect their loved ones, but this doesn't mean that such a person only wants to be alive so that their loved ones won't be traumatized by their death; such a person may want to be alive simply because they enjoy life.


Quote:

Cups said:
I don't know Poid...seems like a convenient way to explain will to live without fear of death.  Almost too convenient...


I'm not trying to explain the will to live without the fear of death, as it's not possible for humans to not be afraid of death IMO; what I'm doing is providing a reason for why a hypothetically rational person might feel fear when confronting death. Again, such a person may have the will to live simply because they enjoy life.


It seems like you're erroneously conflating fear of death with will to live.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078403 - 03/06/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
OK But just so we're clear.

The, or at least one reason a rational person doesn't want to die isn't because they're afraid to...it's because they don't want their folks to be sad?




That would be a very minor reason imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14078489 - 03/06/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


It seems like you're erroneously conflating fear of death with will to live.




I don't see how you can separate the two. 

Quote:

such a person may want to be alive simply because they enjoy life.




You think a person who enjoys life would be rational when staring death in the face? :lol:  IMO They have even more to lose.

I'm honestly a little confused here Poid.  As I read it in your last post you are saying that IYO that it is impossible for a human to not be afraid of death.  But now there are both rational and non-rational reasons for this fear.  Seems before you said it was all irrational.


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Cups said:
By your reasoning any fear at this point on your part would be irrational right?


Yes; you know you're going to die, so what is there to be afraid of? It would be better to try to live the rest of your life in enjoyment.




--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14078608 - 03/06/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:


It seems like you're erroneously conflating fear of death with will to live.




I don't see how you can separate the two.


So you're saying that the reasons for which a person fears death are the same reasons that give them a will to live?

 
Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

such a person may want to be alive simply because they enjoy life.




You think a person who enjoys life would be rational when staring death in the face? :lol:  IMO They have even more to lose.


I think it's certainly possible, yes, at least hypothetically.


Quote:

Cups said:
I'm honestly a little confused here Poid.  As I read it in your last post you are saying that IYO that it is impossible for a human to not be afraid of death.  But now there are both rational and non-rational reasons for this fear.  Seems before you said it was all irrational.


I never said that there are both rational and non-rational reasons to fear death; my example of a rational person experiencing fear when confronting death wasn't an example of death anxiety, because that fear was brought on by thinking about the well-being of loved ones.

My other example of fearing the pain of a snakebite also didn't have to do with death anxiety.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14084257 - 03/07/11 11:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So you're saying that the reasons for which a person fears death are the same reasons that give them a will to live?




Will to live = Desire to stay alive. 

Whether those reasons are internal or external they create a condition within the person which makes life preferable to death. 

In another thread OC brought up the lack of suicide in concentration camps.  Even in that state of existence the vast majority of people found it better to put off death to the very last possible moment.  Their will to live was strong...and so was their death anxiety.

Quote:

I never said that there are both rational and non-rational reasons to fear death; my example of a rational person experiencing fear when confronting death wasn't an example of death anxiety, because that fear was brought on by thinking about the well-being of loved ones.




Yeah, after you're dead.  Your death is still causing that anxiety so filing it under the label of death anxiety is not a stretch IMO.  Would this worry exists if you weren't an impermanent sack of meat?  I don't think so!

Where I think it gets interesting is if you start pondering a hypothetical man who has literally no death anxiety.  What would such a man do?

Would he kill himself on his first bad day?  Would he check both ways before crossing the street?  etc etc etc

IMO Absent death anxiety the next major motivator would be avoiding pain.  Eat to avoid hunger, try to avoid injury etc.  This would keep you alive anyway.

Isn't it crazy to truly grok...if life didn't suck you wouldn't be alive trying to come up with reasons why it doesn't? 

It's the weirdest thing.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Edited by Cups (03/07/11 11:19 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14084324 - 03/07/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

So you're saying that the reasons for which a person fears death are the same reasons that give them a will to live?




Will to live = Desire to stay alive.


Those concepts are not the same thing as the fear of death. 


Quote:

Cups said:
Whether those reasons are internal or external they create a condition within the person which makes life preferable to death. 

In another thread OC brought up the lack of suicide in concentration camps.  Even in that state of existence the vast majority of people found it better to put off death to the very last possible moment.  Their will to live was strong...and so was their death anxiety.


So, how exactly do you think that indicates that they're the same thing? If both my love for cats and fear of bees are strong, does that mean that they're the same thing?


Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

I never said that there are both rational and non-rational reasons to fear death; my example of a rational person experiencing fear when confronting death wasn't an example of death anxiety, because that fear was brought on by thinking about the well-being of loved ones.




Yeah, after you're dead.


What is the relevance of this point? The fact of the matter is that fear is brought on by concern for others, not by a fear of death.


Quote:

Cups said:
Your death is still causing that anxiety so filing it under the label of death anxiety is not a stretch IMO.


It's not your death that's causing it, it's your concern for your loved ones; death anxiety refers specifically to the feelings one experiences when considering the prospect of their own death, feeling fear as a result of concern for others is not a form of death anxiety.


Quote:

Cups said:
Would this worry exists if you weren't an impermanent sack of meat?  I don't think so!


So basically, everything we do has to necessarily relate to death anxiety because we are impermanent sacks of meat?


Quote:

Cups said:
Where I think it gets interesting is if you start pondering a hypothetical man who has literally no death anxiety.  What would such a man do?

Would he kill himself on his first bad day?  Would he check both ways before crossing the street?  etc etc etc


I'm not sure if a man with no death anxiety would have a day so bad that he would kill himself, neuroses are caused by death anxiety, and depression is a neurosis.

I'm not sure why you reason that a man with no death anxiety would have little interest in preserving his own life.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Poid]
    #14084474 - 03/08/11 12:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Will to live = Desire to stay alive.


Those concepts are not the same thing as the fear of death.




Why not? 

What happens when someone loses their will to live?
They die.

What happens when someone has the will to live? 
They fight like hell not to die.

If you are actively pursuing actions to continue living it stands to reason you do not wish to be dead. :shrug: 

Give me a single reason for living which cannot be taken from you by death.



Quote:

Poid said:If both my love for cats and fear of bees are strong, does that mean that they're the same thing?




I knew you like cats Poid.  :catfrog:

Comparing the relationship of fear/love with "will to live"/"death anxiety" is not a reasonable comparison. 


Quote:

Poid said:

Quote:

Yeah, after you're dead.




What is the relevance of this point? The fact of the matter is that fear is brought on by concern for others, not by a fear of death.




You answer it yourself below.

Quote:

Poid said:death anxiety refers specifically to the feelings one experiences when considering the prospect of their own death




I'd submit that instead of being worried about how your loved ones will react to your death...the true fear lies in no longer being able to make them happy. (since you're dead) 

Bringing joy to those we care about gives our lives "meaning".  Death takes that from you.


Quote:

Poid said:So basically, everything we do has to necessarily relate to death anxiety because we are impermanent sacks of meat?




Can you think of anything that doesn't?  :lol: Of course you can, but I'll disagree with you most likely.  Give me your best shot.  :thumbup:


Quote:

Cups said:
I'm not sure why you reason that a man with no death anxiety would have little interest in preserving his own life.




Why would he?  Once you take impermanence of the menu what drive is there to continue?  To him death would be as mundane as going to sleep at night.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14084497 - 03/08/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I'm not sure why you reason that a man with no death anxiety would have little interest in preserving his own life.




Why would he?  Once you take impermanence of the menu what drive is there to continue?  To him death would be as mundane as going to sleep at night.




Just because someone lacks fear of death does not automatically imply they would commit suicide... similarly, just because I'm not particularly afraid of going skydiving does not necessarily mean I will go out tomorrow and sky-dive.  The will to live could still be present even if the fear of death is absent.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14084525 - 03/08/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Just because someone lacks fear of death does not automatically imply they would commit suicide... The will to live could still be present even if the fear of death is absent. 




I'm not saying they would actively commit suicide. 

What I am saying is they wouldn't actively try to prevent their death.

IMO Of course.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14084529 - 03/08/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hmm... one could intellectually decide death is not a good choice even if one lacks the emotion of fear, surely?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: deCypher]
    #14084609 - 03/08/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If death is a bad choice an awful lot of people get fucked every day.  :shrug:

It's a bit of a mindfuck really.  Self-preservation is so ingrained in our day to day trying to imagine existence without it pushing us in that direction is nearly impossible, if not entirely impossible.

I think to have no death anxiety and still retain the will to live would require having some kind of cosmic "purpose"...which is more for the forum next door.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Making death anxiety more prominent? [Re: Cups]
    #14084962 - 03/08/11 02:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Will to live = Desire to stay alive.


Those concepts are not the same thing as the fear of death.




Why not? 

What happens when someone loses their will to live?
They die.


:lol:, why do you say this?


Quote:

Cups said:
What happens when someone has the will to live? 
They fight like hell not to die.


Didn't you say that a man with no death anxiety would not be actively preventing his own death? What, IYO, happens when a man has no will to live or death anxiety? Do you think he will fight like hell not do die?


Quote:

Cups said:
If you are actively pursuing actions to continue living it stands to reason you do not wish to be dead. :shrug:


So what, what does this prove? Just because the will to live and the fear of death often coincide doesn't mean that they are the same thing; the love of golf, for example, might contribute to one's will to live, but that same love of golf does not contribute to one's anxiety about death. Also, the fear of insignificance, for example, might contribute to one's death anxiety, but that same fear does not contribute to one's will to live; will to live and fear of death are simply not the same phenomenon.

 
Quote:

Cups said:
Give me a single reason for living which cannot be taken from you by death.


What would be the relevance of that?


Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:If both my love for cats and fear of bees are strong, does that mean that they're the same thing?




I knew you like cats Poid.  :catfrog:


Hell yeah! :nicekitty:




Quote:

Cups said:
Comparing the relationship of fear/love with "will to live"/"death anxiety" is not a reasonable comparison.


The comparison was actually of the relationship of love & fear with will to live & death anxiety respectively; both the love of cats & the will to live are kinds of desires, and both the fear of bees & the fear of death are kinds of fears.


Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Yeah, after you're dead.




What is the relevance of this point? The fact of the matter is that fear is brought on by concern for others, not by a fear of death.




You answer it yourself below.

Quote:

Poid said:death anxiety refers specifically to the feelings one experiences when considering the prospect of their own death




I'd submit that instead of being worried about how your loved ones will react to your death...the true fear lies in no longer being able to make them happy. (since you're dead) 

Bringing joy to those we care about gives our lives "meaning".  Death takes that from you.


So one cannot genuinely care about the well-being of others?


Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Poid said:So basically, everything we do has to necessarily relate to death anxiety because we are impermanent sacks of meat?




Can you think of anything that doesn't?  :lol: Of course you can, but I'll disagree with you most likely.  Give me your best shot.  :thumbup:


Personally, I'd agree with this, but we're talking about a hypothetical rational man who has no death anxiety; I don't think it would be irrational for such a man to fear for the well-being of others that he cares about.


Quote:

Cups said:
I'm not sure why you reason that a man with no death anxiety would have little interest in preserving his own life.




Why would he?  Once you take impermanence of the menu what drive is there to continue?


The drive to continue pursuing positive experiences?


Quote:

Cups said:
To him death would be as mundane as going to sleep at night.


Why would it be different for anybody else?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Is Life after Death for real?
( 1 2 3 all )
stoner2002 3,269 48 12/23/14 04:33 AM
by Alyssa
* Depression
( 1 2 3 all )
CosmicJokeM 5,810 43 11/21/02 10:33 PM
by Phluck
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomalicious 9,215 69 12/18/02 06:30 PM
by Strumpling
* Death not ends it.... SoulTech 1,635 17 03/31/02 01:45 PM
by NextGenHippie
* Anger makes me do stupid shit (or is it arrogance) Larrythescaryrex 1,286 13 09/23/02 10:36 AM
by CleverName
* death and dying Sir Tokes-A-Lot 2,372 14 05/18/17 11:13 AM
by birdeatingspider
* Death, and whatever lies after it...
( 1 2 all )
Meph 2,905 23 10/25/02 10:38 AM
by bluesky
* Experiencing Death Jared 1,420 12 12/30/02 12:38 AM
by FrozenHappiness

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,922 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.064 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.