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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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(IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public
#14061909 - 03/03/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details.php?newsID=12583&type=top
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A ruling by the Illinois Attorney General's Office isn't sitting well with many gun owners.
State police issue Firearm Owners Identification, or FOID, cards to anyone who wants to own a gun in Illinois. The list of card holders has always been private, but now Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office says the public has a right to know who's on that list.
Lennie Shelton of Thompsonville, Ill., is one of more than a million Illinois residents who have a FOID card. And while many of those people are up in arms about the ruling, Shelton is not one of them.
"Publicizing this list of who has a FOID card and who doesn't isn't going to make a hill of beans bit of difference," she said.
Shelton points out that just because you are a FOID cardholder does NOT mean you're a gun owner. She sees potential benefits in making the names of cardholders an open record.
"If I'm a criminal, I don't want to break into somebody's house that has a gun that might be ready to just shoot me as I come in the door," she told News Three.
Larry Morse disagrees. He's on the board of the Illinois State Rifle Association and thinks publicizing FOID card holders' names will put gun owner's at risk of being robbed.
"I think you just make yourself a target when you wholesale list names of people who own guns," he explained.
Illinois has required FOID cards for more than 40 years. The law is designed to help state police keep guns out of the hands of criminals, by tracking those who want to buy a firearm.
Morse believes Attorney General Lisa Madigan is taking aim at gun owner's privacy.
"Privacy is a big issue in this country, and most of the liberals in this country value their privacy very highly," he said, "Except when it comes to revealing the names of gun owners."
But Shelton doesn't understand what all the fuss is about, and insists most people won't care if the names are made public.
"That seems to be the American way anymore, to take a hangnail and turn it into a major surgery," she said.
State police say they will not release the information and plan to take this issue to court.
Gun owners are also getting some support in the General Assembly. There are currently bills in both the house and senate to permanently make the names of FOID card holders private.
"Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office says the public has a right to know who's on that list."
And why the fuck is that? What possible good could come from this? Give me something better than "the public has the right to know." Bull shit
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Mush 4 Brains]
#14062136 - 03/03/11 06:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, only a few days ago I was arguing with someone about the existence of the FOID system. They, an Illinois resident, were trying to tell me that it was inconsequential. I named a few ways in which it could be abused, but I never even thought that the list would just be made public and subject to not only abuse by the government but by just about anyone...
There is also an Illinois-wide "assault weapon" ban in the works.
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Canis latrans
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Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Mush 4 Brains]
#14062159 - 03/03/11 06:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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So much stupidity in her statement. I could see so much going wrong with that, like gun owners being robbed, or having their properties broken into while they are on vacation/otherwise out of house.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Canis latrans]
#14062180 - 03/03/11 07:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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You should live in a real state.
We don't require cards to own firearms, or even carry them concealed.
Silly hippies.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: TGRR]
#14062216 - 03/03/11 07:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why shouldn't the public know? If the state issues license, tax, treaties, or raffle tickets, I think the electors of that state have a right to know about it- with few narrowly-drawn exceptions.
Now, I don't think the state has any buisness making you own some stupid registration just to have a gun in your house, but that's a seperate issue.
Keep government open!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: TGRR]
#14062226 - 03/03/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said: You should live in a real state.
We don't require cards to own firearms, or even carry them concealed.
Silly hippies.
Sounds like Arizona. I hate to ruin your day but I'm looking to buy a winter home down near the border. Going to look for Don Juan and hunt wild pigs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Canis latrans
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: johnm214]
#14062303 - 03/03/11 07:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Why shouldn't the public know? If the state issues license, tax, treaties, or raffle tickets, I think the electors of that state have a right to know about it- with few narrowly-drawn exceptions.
It's one thing to say " this month the state issued out x licenses for firearm ownership" and another thing to say "this month we issued license to Jim Bob of Such and Such, John Smith of SmallTown, Jacky O'Claire of Thisvillage etc"
What justification could there be for sharing that kind of information?
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: johnm214]
#14062388 - 03/03/11 07:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Why shouldn't the public know?
Because it's none of your or anyone else's business if I own a gun or not. It's certainly not the business of foreign governments, my enemies, or even the police--all of whom would be able to find out if I owned a gun or not if the list was made public (and I lived in IL, which I do not...)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Canis latrans]
#14063150 - 03/03/11 09:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Why shouldn't the public know?
Because it's none of your or anyone else's business if I own a gun or not. It's certainly not the business of foreign governments, my enemies, or even the police--all of whom would be able to find out if I owned a gun or not if the list was made public (and I lived in IL, which I do not...)
That's a good reason not to require people to tell others things that none of their buisness, including whether you own a gun or not. But this is not what I'm arguing for: I'm meerly arguing for the government records to be open. That they contain such information is incidental.
As I said, I don't see how its any of the government's buisness whether you own a gun or not, and that's a good reason not to have these stupid cards in the first place, but once they exist, that information is allready in the government's hands and subect to their whims. Not only do all these strangers and so forth have your information, but they can publish it if they want- generally without your consent or control.
At least when information needs to be given to a private party as part of a deal, the discloser has some incentive to disclose, and the process is voluntary- such as when you go to the doctor (though laws are changing the voluntary nature of that relationship too, thanks to the "war on drugs"). With the government, it seems you gain no benefit for giving them the info.
Now all this has little to do with the case in specific, but whether a public records law mandates this disclosure or whether its at the state's whim, the situation is quite similar: in neither case did you have any real expectation of privacy, as they could have always done whatever they had wanted with it. This is a very good reason to limit government information gathering, I feel.
An intersting aside is if they had made this more of a taxation system, such as the ystem in the US of selling machine guns and so forth where the government requirement is that you pay a tax prior to taking possesion, there might have been some expectation of privacy. I believe those records aren't disclosed per the usual tax exceptions. But governemnt rarely gives a crap about people's privacy, and busybodys will always want more and more info. Personally I think general laws on the topic granting private rights of action and compensation for violations is the way to go, but everyone seems so mindlessly against lawsuits, I doubt it would be too popular.
Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Why shouldn't the public know? If the state issues license, tax, treaties, or raffle tickets, I think the electors of that state have a right to know about it- with few narrowly-drawn exceptions.
It's one thing to say " this month the state issued out x licenses for firearm ownership" and another thing to say "this month we issued license to Jim Bob of Such and Such, John Smith of SmallTown, Jacky O'Claire of Thisvillage etc"
What justification could there be for sharing that kind of information?
None. I'm arguing that government information should generally be public. The public shouldn't be burdened with proving a need or justification to recieve given records, and I doubt the person who's identity is recorded had any reason to presume the info was secret.
Either way, government seems to always leak your info anyways, so its kind of moot, though I sympathise with people who were doubly oppressed in this situation: forced to get permission from the nanny state to get a gun, and now having that request for permission publicly disclosed.
You do make a good point though about simply redacting the more personal info that has only personal applicability
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Canis latrans
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Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: johnm214]
#14063243 - 03/03/11 09:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, spilling how much revenue the state gained is a GOOD idea, as is statistics of specific localities, and demographics. Personally non-identifiable information shouldn't be a big deal. It's that information that links back to a specific citizen that should be stomped in the nuts.
This of course does not mean I approve of firearm registration.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover



Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Canis latrans]
#14063362 - 03/03/11 10:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you live in Illinois don't be a smuck. Do not follow any of their unconstitutional gun laws. I was born in Chicago, and lived there till I was 19. Here's what you do, if you know anyone in Indiana have them purchase the firearm of your choice, and the purchase it from them for the same amount in cash. Its perfectly legal for them as long as they don't have prior knowledge that your a convicted felon, or that you've been declared legally incompetent. For you its definitely not legal. But I'd rather be a criminal then to be controlled like cattle, and have my birth rights trampled on by the totalitarian liberal hell they name Illinois
--------------------
  "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." "Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Simplicitry]
#14063375 - 03/03/11 10:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simplicitry said: If you live in Illinois don't be a smuck. Do not follow any of their unconstitutional gun laws. I was born in Chicago, and lived there till I was 19. Here's what you do, if you know anyone in Indiana have them purchase the firearm of your choice, and the purchase it from them for the same amount in cash. Its perfectly legal for them as long as they don't have prior knowledge that your a convicted felon, or that you've been declared legally incompetent. For you its definitely not legal. But I'd rather be a criminal then to be controlled like cattle, and have my birth rights trampled on by the totalitarian liberal hell they name Illinois
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Screaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Simplicitry]
#14064412 - 03/04/11 01:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simplicitry said: If you live in Illinois don't be a smuck. Do not follow any of their unconstitutional gun laws. I was born in Chicago, and lived there till I was 19. Here's what you do, if you know anyone in Indiana have them purchase the firearm of your choice, and the purchase it from them for the same amount in cash. Its perfectly legal for them as long as they don't have prior knowledge that your a convicted felon, or that you've been declared legally incompetent. For you its definitely not legal. But I'd rather be a criminal then to be controlled like cattle, and have my birth rights trampled on by the totalitarian liberal hell they name Illinois
DAMN STRAIGHT. Those commie bastards will NEVER take away OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS.
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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Screaming Eagle]
#14065798 - 03/04/11 11:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Screaming Eagle said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said: If you live in Illinois don't be a smuck. Do not follow any of their unconstitutional gun laws. I was born in Chicago, and lived there till I was 19. Here's what you do, if you know anyone in Indiana have them purchase the firearm of your choice, and the purchase it from them for the same amount in cash. Its perfectly legal for them as long as they don't have prior knowledge that your a convicted felon, or that you've been declared legally incompetent. For you its definitely not legal. But I'd rather be a criminal then to be controlled like cattle, and have my birth rights trampled on by the totalitarian liberal hell they name Illinois
DAMN STRAIGHT. Those commie bastards will NEVER take away OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS.
One of the many reasons i need to gtfo Illinois.
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TGRR
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Icelander]
#14067552 - 03/04/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
TGRR said: You should live in a real state.
We don't require cards to own firearms, or even carry them concealed.
Silly hippies.
Sounds like Arizona. I hate to ruin your day but I'm looking to buy a winter home down near the border. Going to look for Don Juan and hunt wild pigs.
It is in fact Arizona.
And the great thing about hunting javelina is that they aren't at all averse to turning the tables on you.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: TGRR]
#14068142 - 03/04/11 08:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I've heard. We will hunt with hand made bows or at least my friend who lives down there will. I'm sure to get gored when I hit one in the foot. According to him they're not pigs but in the Hippo family.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ScavengerType


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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: Icelander]
#14068981 - 03/04/11 11:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There is no reason why the state should disclose this information. If they did it would likely lead to an increase in organized/semi-organized crime using the FOID to organize robberies like Canis latrans had suggested, which promised to have not just valuable stuff but arms as well.
Suggesting people have unregistered firearms is also foolish, because of the legal implications. Any growers on here immediately get a massive charge for having an unregistered firearm, never-mind also being demonized for it in the court system and media.
-------------------- "Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?" "The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything." - Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now. Conquer's Club
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover



Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: (IL) Attorney General Wants FOID Card Holders Made Public [Re: ScavengerType]
#14069949 - 03/05/11 08:23 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ScavengerType said: Suggesting people have unregistered firearms is also foolish, because of the legal implications. Any growers on here immediately get a massive charge for having an unregistered firearm, never-mind also being demonized for it in the court system and media.
Since you know so much about Illinois criminal law, then I'm sure that you're aware that if someone is caught manufacturing and/or distributing illegal mushrooms, and have firearms (registered or otherwise) they are pretty well fucked. Hell, even without the firearms, life as they know it is over. So your point is actually rather "foolish" to use your own words. Those who don't commit felonies (not to suggest I morally object to everything the government deems a felony) needn't worry to much.
It is also foolish to let an out of control, financial & morally bankrupt government entity violate rights that are your birth right. In my opinion bypassing state laws that violate our 2nd amendment rights is a justifiable form of civil disobedience.
I am so thankful that I live in place where there is no such thing as unregistered firearm!
--------------------
  "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." "Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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