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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Born Again vs. Enlightened
#14061616 - 03/03/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: falcon]
#14061933 - 03/03/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Jesus-Worship vs Self-Worship ?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: WScott]
#14061961 - 03/03/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
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so in a sense you are the most enlightened of the bunch?
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
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Not many people really claim they are enlightened.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Lion]
#14065299 - 03/04/11 09:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm enlightened.
(whatever that means)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DisoRDeR
motional



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Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander] 1
#14065398 - 03/04/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Lion]
#14065546 - 03/04/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not many people really claim they are enlightened.
I'm enlightened.
By at least a kilogram. I just went to the bathroom.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
I know this was a well thought out thread that had serious consideration of intelligent conversation, and as such is in no way trolling. But let me help, enlightenment is a conceptualization of a mental transition that one undergoes toward whatever it is they feel is a higher intelligence.. This could be anything, such as understanding that just about everything around you is a tool to hypnotize you into an Americanized patriotic consumer work robot. Coming away from psyches and ego loss you could consider yourself enlightened to some extent. Someone who goes through college and understands the world better could consider themselves enlightened to an extent as thier understanding has increased and changed.
Assuming the overall intent and stating it as fact is moot. You don't know anyone's intent unless the (honestly) tell you. Most don't even know their own intent. So on your part that is a single fail.
As for born again, it is impossible to trully be born again unless your physical brain has littereally physically changed as we have impulses because of our brain itself. Who would want to get laid if they had really low levels of testosterone etc. However, for intance, if you do DMT and it changes your life and your whole concepts of the world, then that could be considered born again.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Also, I looked up at the sky and couldn't see god. I then asked him to strike me down. He didn't. I then prayed to him to appear before me and he didn't Therefore he doesn't exist. God the concept doesn't exist because the Christian god didn't appear before me.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14065700 - 03/04/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
I know this was a well thought out thread that had serious consideration of intelligent conversation, and as such is in no way trolling. But let me help, enlightenment is a conceptualization of a mental transition that one undergoes toward whatever it is they feel is a higher intelligence.. This could be anything, such as understanding that just about everything around you is a tool to hypnotize you into an Americanized patriotic consumer work robot. Coming away from psyches and ego loss you could consider yourself enlightened to some extent. Someone who goes through college and understands the world better could consider themselves enlightened to an extent as thier understanding has increased and changed.
Assuming the overall intent and stating it as fact is moot. You don't know anyone's intent unless the (honestly) tell you. Most don't even know their own intent. So on your part that is a single fail.
As for born again, it is impossible to trully be born again unless your physical brain has littereally physically changed as we have impulses because of our brain itself. Who would want to get laid if they had really low levels of testosterone etc. However, for intance, if you do DMT and it changes your life and your whole concepts of the world, then that could be considered born again.
I'm bored again. But easily cured by going to another forum for a little while.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander]
#14065723 - 03/04/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
I know this was a well thought out thread that had serious consideration of intelligent conversation, and as such is in no way trolling. But let me help, enlightenment is a conceptualization of a mental transition that one undergoes toward whatever it is they feel is a higher intelligence.. This could be anything, such as understanding that just about everything around you is a tool to hypnotize you into an Americanized patriotic consumer work robot. Coming away from psyches and ego loss you could consider yourself enlightened to some extent. Someone who goes through college and understands the world better could consider themselves enlightened to an extent as thier understanding has increased and changed.
Assuming the overall intent and stating it as fact is moot. You don't know anyone's intent unless the (honestly) tell you. Most don't even know their own intent. So on your part that is a single fail.
As for born again, it is impossible to trully be born again unless your physical brain has littereally physically changed as we have impulses because of our brain itself. Who would want to get laid if they had really low levels of testosterone etc. However, for intance, if you do DMT and it changes your life and your whole concepts of the world, then that could be considered born again.
I'm bored again. But easily cured by going to another forum for a little while.
Oh, you come to philosophy forums for entertainment?
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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PsylioSynethesis
Experimentalist



Registered: 04/15/10
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If you see the Buddha on the road, strike him down. The enlightened have no need to self-proclaim.
-------------------- P~S
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jivJaN
yes


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Posts: 4,245
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Diploid]
#14066504 - 03/04/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Not many people really claim they are enlightened.
I'm enlightened.
By at least a kilogram. I just went to the bathroom. 
That's a liter of piss or a kilo of shit.
Either way.. i'm impressed.
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: andrewss]
#14067112 - 03/04/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said: so in a sense you are the most enlightened of the bunch?
:yardschtick:
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
I don't think it's about looking superior, enlightenment is basically a word to describe a person who is completely content with themselves and the ability to take 'problems' on with ease from the knowledge they've gained.
And rebirth again, is just a word to describe a person who previously was following a certain way of living and made a major change in how they live.
I do not see fail in either of these, if the changes help make that person's life 'easier' or 'happy' even if they are wrong, then where is the fail?
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Enlightenment is a figure of speech and is supposed to be understood as such, it is not really describing anything. Born Again is quite different. While there are some similarities, there are also important differences between the concept.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Enlightenment is a figure of speech and is supposed to be understood as such, it is not really describing anything.
Since when do figures of speech not describe anything?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14068424 - 03/04/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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When you stop thinking that language can describe reality.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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What do you mean? That only feelings can describe it?
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: giza]
#14068484 - 03/04/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
#14069415 - 03/05/11 01:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have never asked that of another human being, but I have heard/read it being offered.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher] 1
#14069474 - 03/05/11 02:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Damn, you caught me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
#14070324 - 03/05/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't understand why a decent portion of your posts amount to nitpicking at irrelevant things. You know exactly what I meant to say and whether I added "in order to work" does not change the meaning of the sentence.
Quote:
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely
In reality, things are not separate, and language makes them appear to be so.Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Someone who is bragging about enlightenment is not enlightened (at least if we are to understand Enlightened in the Buddhist context), because part of enlightenment according to tathagata is the realization that there is no self or no "i" or any of that, and if someone were to say "I am enlightened" would be admitting that there is a self, and so they are not really enlightened.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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So one can brag about not being Enlightened thereby demonstrating...
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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no. you have still missed the point entirely.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Thereby proving I am not Enlightened which means...
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Means your missin' out on the cageless cage brah.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070410 - 03/05/11 11:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Two enter: only one may levae.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Thereby proving I am not Enlightened which means...
which means nothing
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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And when the All has become Nothing And Nothing has become the All...
(this could go on for quite some time)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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How about this, OC, what do you think is meant by "enlightenment"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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I believe it to be a fictional mind-state; a carrot to attract followers no different than the concept of Heaven.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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I think it's a broad push away from everything conceptual, this doesn't neccessarily mean you go anywhere or get any special spiritual knowledge but it's a brain function which is "out of experience" or free, detached, w/e. The path of negation.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: No, that language in general cannot describe reality because language works by discriminating amongst things in order to work.
Kind of redundant, no? Did you mean to say "language works by discriminating amongst things"?
I don't understand why a decent portion of your posts amount to nitpicking at irrelevant things. You know exactly what I meant to say and whether I added "in order to work" does not change the meaning of the sentence.
Quote:
I don't see why the fact that language works by discriminating amongst things means that it in general cannot describe reality; I would say that language describes reality in general terms, and and is not as effective in describing it precisely
In reality, things are not separate, and language makes them appear to be so.
What do you mean by "things are not separate"? Are you talking about how everything is interconnected at the subatomic level?
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Are you implying that the enlightened man should lie when asked if he or she's enlightened? Born-Again Christians do typically exhibit this sense of superiority over others when proclaiming their status but I can't say I've run into many people bragging about their enlightened status, at least explicitly... lots of people on this forum do a pretty good job of doing it indirectly though. 
Someone who is bragging about enlightenment is not enlightened (at least if we are to understand Enlightened in the Buddhist context), because part of enlightenment according to tathagata is the realization that there is no self or no "i" or any of that, and if someone were to say "I am enlightened" would be admitting that there is a self, and so they are not really enlightened.
Couldn't an enlightened person technically say the words "I am enlightened" while not being attached to them or their meanings, and merely regarding them as random bodily sounds?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14070515 - 03/05/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate, for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is) that gives it the illusion of seperateness. You can't know anything for absoloutely sure so you can't know what anything is. It doesn't mean reality is objectively any way but seeing as we have no idea what it is it is subjectively just one thing, just reality or pure experience prior to our knowledge of it.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070557 - 03/05/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
your idea of a tree is not what it actually is
Can you translate? How do you know what another person's idea is and what a 'real' tree is?
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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That's the point, no one can have any idea what a real tree is. The only thing you can be sure of is "I AM" or the subjective reality I am seeing at this moment is happening. There is no other certainty. From this perspective everything that is not a subjective seeing/happening within consciousness is uncertain and the subjective seeing is only ONE thing prior to externalizing knowledge of it. Dig?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070593 - 03/05/11 11:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's the point, no one can have any idea what a real tree is.
Nonsense of the month award.
More correct is to say that there is no real tree only various perceptions/interpretations thereof. An ant's tree is different than your tree is different than a bird's tree. However, that doesn't point to there being an ultimately 'correct' or 'real' tree in the slightest.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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That's what I'm fucking saying lol. THERE IS NO CORRECT TREE.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070626 - 03/05/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Look, I'm not saying that there is a tree or there isn't a tree or that we can see a "real" tree. I'm simply saying the there is no framework within which you have any certain idea about objective reality. So without the ideas reality appears subjectively as one, as JUST EXPERIENCE.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070636 - 03/05/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Should I once again perform 'The Rock to the Back of the Head' test to volunteers to demonstrate objective reality?
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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It still wouldn't make anything about it certain, regardless of what happens or what you say. How about you present a proper counterpoint rather than skirting the issue and not looking at what i am saying. It's that or agree.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070662 - 03/05/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It still wouldn't make anything about it certain, regardless of what happens
So to propose a hypothesis and a test for it is meaningless no matter the outcome?
You have just destroyed science and my computer will stop working any sec
--------------------
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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It doesn't destroy science it's simply the truth which is that objective reality is uncertain because the person carrying out any test is already looking from a subjective viewpoint. Something is either 100% true or it's uncertain, anyone with half a brain will admit that no test is can be 100% true. Perhaps in light of that you ought to revisit what I just said and look at it. You never know, you might just get enlightened.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070700 - 03/05/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
anyone with half a brain will admit that no test is can be 100% true
You only have half a brain? Well I guess that explains a lot...
--------------------
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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"ignore what you are not until it kills you" ~ David Scoma
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14070770 - 03/05/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no Scoma.
--------------------
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: There is no Scoma.
Where did you provide a good point again? Looks like all you're doing is posting random antagonizing lines.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14070981 - 03/05/11 01:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I nominate your response for Post Of the Month.
--------------------
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I nominate your response for Post Of the Month. 
Continuing to wait....
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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PsylioSynethesis
Experimentalist



Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 512
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14071102 - 03/05/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'
-------------------- P~S
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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*holds up mirror*
--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
PsylioSynethesis said: Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'
Just like the post you are making now?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander]
#14073124 - 03/05/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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both are cases of extreme gullibility and shameless hope for something they truly don't believe in. i'm a firm believer of if you are indeed that, there is no need whatsoever to advertise it. blatant insecurity masked under the auspice of spiritual superiority (presuming there is such a thing).
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander]
#14073165 - 03/05/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
PsylioSynethesis said: Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'
Just like the post you are making now?
"Just like the post you are making now? "
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14073193 - 03/05/11 10:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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@ this thread
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deranger]
#14073739 - 03/06/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...
Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.
Quote:
Grapefruit said: for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...
My idea of a tree is not actually itself? 
Quote:
Grapefruit said: ...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.
How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074274 - 03/06/11 04:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How could you distinguish between anything without knowledge? You couldn't.
Quote:
How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?
As I keep saying it's a subjective thing.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14074282 - 03/06/11 04:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: How could you distinguish between anything without knowledge? You couldn't.
I suppose you're right, depending on what you mean by knowledege; what's your point?
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?
As I keep saying it's a subjective thing.
What's this supposed to mean?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074290 - 03/06/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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My point is prior to knowledge everything is one. I have no other point.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Grapefruit]
#14074329 - 03/06/11 05:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How is everything one prior to knowledge? And if things become separated after knowledge, how does this mean that separation is illusory?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074402 - 03/06/11 06:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
My idea of a tree is not actually itself?
No. It is your idea of the tree.
Quote:
How is everything one prior to knowledge?
Everything is made up of elements. Elements are all made up of the same basic particles.
It's basic high-school chemistry dude...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14074463 - 03/06/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
My idea of a tree is not actually itself?
No. It is your idea of the tree.
I don't think you understood me correctly: when I say 'itself', I am referring to my idea of the tree, not a physical tree. Nowhere in that sentence is there an indication that I was referring to a physical tree, or anything else besides my idea of the the tree; you really need to improve on your reading comprehension. 
Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
How is everything one prior to knowledge?
Everything is made up of elements. Elements are all made up of the same basic particles.
It's basic high-school chemistry dude...
How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked? 
Also, did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/06/11 07:21 AM)
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074492 - 03/06/11 07:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Grapefruit said that Quote:
your idea of a tree is not what it actually is
to which you replied Quote:
My idea of a tree is not actually itself?
Grapefruit was saying "your idea of a tree is not a tree".
And now you say that he was saying "your idea of a tree is not your idea of a tree". Well I'm not sure who's having problem with comprehension here. But I surely am having trouble comprehending your irregularities.
Quote:
did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?
Oh sorry did I say something you don't like?
Quote:
How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?
You asked how everything was ONE. I told you that everything is made from the same basic particles... how much clearer do you want me to make it?
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n.dangerously
Disease, Injury, Madness


Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 107
Loc: PDX
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14074536 - 03/06/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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A subjective response proves nothing. . [not necessarily directed at durantz.. just too lazy to figure out who exactly provoked that response from me]
All atoms come from the same energy. That's how everything is 'one'. Matter and energy are one-in-the-same, just different manifestations.
What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
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Quote:
A subjective response proves nothing
I think most of us agree with you on that one.
Quote:
What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .
Some people have problems accepting that they are not separate.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14074583 - 03/06/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Grapefruit said that Quote:
your idea of a tree is not what it actually is
to which you replied Quote:
My idea of a tree is not actually itself?
Grapefruit was saying "your idea of a tree is not a tree".
That's what I wanted to clarify.
Quote:
durantz said: And now you say that he was saying "your idea of a tree is not your idea of a tree". Well I'm not sure who's having problem with comprehension here. But I surely am having trouble comprehending your irregularities.
I'm not saying he said that, so it's still quite clear who's having reading comprehension problems. 
What "irregularities" are you talking about?
Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
did you not notice that these questions weren't directed at you?
Oh sorry did I say something you don't like?
No, I just wanted his answer to the question is all.
Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?
You asked how everything was ONE.
No I didn't, this was my question:
How is everything one prior to knowledge?
He was saying that, prior to knowledge, everything is one, and that after knowledge, the "illusion" of separation forms; this is why I wanted his response, I knew you weren't following along with our discussion, which you always seem to have a problem doing. You just wanted to troll me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
n.dangerously said: A subjective response proves nothing. . [not necessarily directed at durantz.. just too lazy to figure out who exactly provoked that response from me]
It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it sure can.
Quote:
n.dangerously said: All atoms come from the same energy. That's how everything is 'one'. Matter and energy are one-in-the-same, just different manifestations.
What's so hard about understanding everything that exists? Jesus. .
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm only arguing against the position that separateness is an illusion; I understand what you're saying, and contend that both separateness and oneness are real.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074602 - 03/06/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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no I was following along just fine. I'm sorry if I use abbreviated quotes in here. I should have known you are more concerned with semantics by now.
After knowledge the illusion of separation occurs because humans want to believe in it... Just as you want to believe in it.
I'm following along quite well.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14074632 - 03/06/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I'm sorry if I use abbreviated quotes in here. I should have known you are more concerned with semantics by now.
There's a 'Quote' function, you know, it's not very hard to use...
Quote:
durantz said: After knowledge the illusion of separation occurs because humans want to believe in it...
And we go back to this..can you prove that separation is illusory? Why would knowledge cause people to want to believe in the illusion of separation?
Quote:
durantz said: Just as you want to believe in it.
Not true, I believe that the universe is one giant process that contains several processes.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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n.dangerously
Disease, Injury, Madness


Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 107
Loc: PDX
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074639 - 03/06/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
How is that answer at all relevant to the question being asked?
You asked how everything was ONE.
No I didn't, this was my question:
How is everything one prior to knowledge?
He was saying that, prior to knowledge, everything is one, and that after knowledge, the "illusion" of separation forms; this is why I wanted his response, I knew you weren't following along with our discussion, which you always seem to have a problem doing. You just wanted to troll me.
Oh, the power of the comma. . .
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n.dangerously
Disease, Injury, Madness


Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 107
Loc: PDX
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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When it comes to 'oneness' or 'separateness':
Maybe it's not either/or, but both. .
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14074914 - 03/06/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What I'm mean by it's a subjective thing is that it's an experience that has no basis in objective reality. Basically if you dropped all your compulsive neurotic labelling of reality then all that would be left would be pure experience with no layer of assumption over it. Whether this is possible or not is another matter. If it were possible however then there would be no way to distinguish between things coming from that position, knowledge would still distinguish but that position would be seperate from knowledge and so it wouldn't.
For example, if you ask me "are things seperate or one objectively" I will tell you what my knowledge tells me (taken from science etc.) but I have no way to be 100% certain of what is going on objectively so as to how I experience things beyond that knowledge from moment to moment i am only seeing one thing which is pure experience. IMO the path of enlightenment is one of trying to see beyond knowledge. Not trying to drop knowledge but to stop making any attempt to label what is being experienced. This is why people say as soon as you proclaim you are enlightened you are not, because you have already labelled things, this is why they say it is a "stateless state".
It is important to note when I say pure experience I do not meant fully accurate seeing or true sight, I just mean that the sight is not labelled but seen clearly as subjective and therefore unknown.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14074945 - 03/06/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
PsylioSynethesis said: Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'
Just like the post you are making now?
"Just like the post you are making now? "
How dare you!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Icelander]
#14081801 - 03/07/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
PsylioSynethesis said: Look at his post number, I'm sure almost all of them are just as empty and without point. 'Post Ratio Troll'
Just like the post you are making now?
"Just like the post you are making now? "
How dare you!
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14081816 - 03/07/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...
Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.
Quote:
Grapefruit said: for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...
My idea of a tree is not actually itself? 
Quote:
Grapefruit said: ...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.
How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?
It states that oneness is default and consciousness itself causes separation. Having your own consciousness means that you now have comparisons and differences. You would need language to describe these comparisons etc.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14081933 - 03/07/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
How can language make things appear to be separate?
Language labels things and in doing so makes things appear seperate...
Things are separate, distinct entities by definition; if there was only one thing, then there would only be one word/label.
Quote:
Grapefruit said: for example, you might say a tree is a tree but that's just a conceptual layer over reality (your idea of a tree is not what it actually is)...
My idea of a tree is not actually itself? 
Quote:
Grapefruit said: ...that gives it the illusion of seperateness.
How does that prove that separateness is an illusion?
It states that oneness is default and consciousness itself causes separation.
Consciousness doesn't cause any separation, it merely recognizes the separation that already exists.
Quote:
Seanfu said: Having your own consciousness means that you now have comparisons and differences. You would need language to describe these comparisons etc.
Those differences already exist, and that you can make comparisons between them in now way suggests that separation is an illusion; when we compare things, we're looking at two or more separate things as they appear to us and analyzing their relationship to each other & everything else, we're not creating any separation by doing so. That we would need language to describe those comparisons also in no way suggests that separation is an illusion; a description of a comparison merely describes two or more separate things, and there's nothing about such a description that suggests that separation is an illusion.
The universe is one giant process comprised of several processes, so I reject any notion that claims that either "oneness" or separation is an illusion.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14082023 - 03/07/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not supporting that point. I don't delve into shit like that too much considering the impossibility of knowing at least in this lifetime. But I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are. So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
What if the self proclaimed enlightened person spent their whole life "changing"? Can't they just rest now? Why do you think people need to be constantly changing?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14082652 - 03/07/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said: ...I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are.
How does this mean that separation is even an illusion in the first place? You're begging the question, I'm asking you to prove how separation is an illusion, and you're telling me it is because "consciousness itself causes the illusion"; that statement is by no means proof.
Quote:
Seanfu said: So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)
So how do you think this suggests that separation is an illusion? When one is unconscious, one doesn't perceive separation because one doesn't perceive anything; this doesn't at all mean that consciousness creates an illusory separation, it just means that one's consciousness isn't "turned on", so to speak, while unconscious. A conscious observer observing is merely observing the separation that already exists, s/he is not creating an illusory separation that does not really exist.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/07/11 06:23 PM)
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Seanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14082750 - 03/07/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Seanfu said: ...I think the point is that the consciousness itself causes the illusion because when not conscious you just are.
How does this mean that separation is even an illusion in the first place? You're begging the question, I'm asking you to prove how separation is an illusion, and you're telling me it is because "consciousness itself causes the illusion"; that statement is by no means proof.
Quote:
Seanfu said: So there is just are and there is conscious observer observing (having a separate perspective.)
So how do you think this suggests that separation is an illusion? When one is unconscious, one doesn't perceive separation because one doesn't perceive anything; this doesn't at all mean that consciousness creates an illusory separation, it just means that one's consciousness isn't "turned on" so to speak while unconscious. A conscious observer observing is merely observing the separation that already exists, s/he is not creating an illusory separation that does not really exist.
I have no idea. That's the extent of my understanding. I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness. And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14082822 - 03/07/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said: I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.
Why?
Quote:
Seanfu said: And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.
There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Seanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Poid]
#14082949 - 03/07/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Seanfu said: I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.
Why?
Quote:
Seanfu said: And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.
There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.
1- because an energetic oneness woud imply that there would then be a higher superconscious. That alone could be a god. 2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu] 1
#14083003 - 03/07/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14083028 - 03/07/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Seanfu said: I would assume to say oneness exists at all is to assume a god oneness.
Why?
Quote:
Seanfu said: And there isn't nor will there likely ever be any evidence toward anything concerning life after death or lack of.
There is a lot of evidence that suggests that there is no life after death, but we likely may never have proof.
1- because an energetic oneness woud imply that there would then be a higher superconscious.
How so? What do you mean by "higher superconscious"?
Quote:
Seanfu said: That alone could be a god.
Key word 'could'.
Quote:
Seanfu said: 2- What is the evidence of no afterlife that is more substantial than afterlife evidence?
Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far absolutely no evidence that suggests that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death has been discovered; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Seanfu
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Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far there is absolutely no evidence that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.
It's still not evidence. This is coming from a person who has spent the vast majority of their life as a skeptical atheist/agnostic. There is no way to disprove an afterlife. It is intuitive that we are biological chemical robots. This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.
Once again, I agree with the lack of evidence, as in none, but still no evidence possible to the contrary.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14083187 - 03/07/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.
That is not even Philosophy 101; it is Philosophy pre-kindergarten. Did you really need to state what every mature poster here already knows?
--------------------
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durantz
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We can't disprove unicorns, gremlins, fairies, or elves either...
Should we expend energy trying to find evidence that these creatures do not exist? Or should we focus our energy on solving practical problems than will improve human life?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14083239 - 03/07/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seanfu said: Creatures that die don't ever come back to life; creatures are just systems comprised of chemicals, and when they die, chemical reactions occur which cause their bodies to decompose. A lot of research has been done on creatures, and so far there is absolutely no evidence that some sort of "soul" exists in creatures and goes to an "afterlife" after death; the evidence against the existence of souls is overwhelming, similarly to how the evidence against the existence of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is overwhelming.
It's still not evidence.
Yes it is, do you even know what evidence is? Evidence is an outward sign, or an indication; all of the research that has been done up until this point indicates that creatures do not have souls, and absolutely nothing has been found that indicates that creatures have souls.
You may be confusing evidence with proof; I'm not claiming that there's proof that creatures don't have souls, I'm saying that the available evidence indicates that they don't have souls. Proof and evidence are not the same thing.
Quote:
Seanfu said: This is coming from a person who has spent the vast majority of their life as a skeptical atheist/agnostic.
I haven't even spent the majority of my life as an atheist/agnostic, and I don't see how you making irrelevant personal comments about me contributes to this discussion.
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Seanfu said: There is no way to disprove an afterlife.
This is what makes it an unfalsifiable theory, and unfalsifiable theories are hardly, if at all, worth entertaining seriously.
Quote:
Seanfu said: It is intuitive that we are biological chemical robots. This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.
Sure, God can't be disproved because his existence is unfalsifiable; you already said this.
Quote:
Seanfu said: Once again, I agree with the lack of evidence, as in none, but still no evidence possible to the contrary.
Right, it is unfalsifiable, not to mention the concept itself is vaguely defined; how would one go about testing it experimentally?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Seanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14083305 - 03/07/11 07:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: We can't disprove unicorns, gremlins, fairies, or elves either...
Should we expend energy trying to find evidence that these creatures do not exist? Or should we focus our energy on solving practical problems than will improve human life?
It's a big enough question to be valid. Not practical at all though.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
This does not change the fact that god etc can't be disproven.
That is not even Philosophy 101; it is Philosophy pre-kindergarten. Did you really need to state what every mature poster here already knows?
Yes considering people were stating there is evidence against god/afterlife/spaghetti monsters more than evidence for.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14083352 - 03/07/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do you even know what an unfalsifiable theory is?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14083472 - 03/07/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well there is more evidence against God because there is ZERO evidence for God...
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14083539 - 03/07/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I wouldn't say ZERO... you still have to count people's visions of talking to God, near-death experiences, and all the miracles tallied up by the Catholic Church. Granted, most of this is pretty damn shoddy but I don't think it's fair to say that there is absolutely no evidence in favor of God's existence.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deCypher]
#14083629 - 03/07/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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There's no objective evidence outside of people's self-reports.
It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14083653 - 03/07/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ah, objective or empirical evidence is a whole other matter.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14083877 - 03/07/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: There's no objective evidence outside of people's self-reports.
It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.
Or evidence against.
And yes, it is unfalsifiable, but what is your point? It's a bitch, yes, it is likely we are all biological robots, but just because something is an unbeatable bitch doesn't make it less possible. It's just the nature of what it is.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz] 1
#14083942 - 03/07/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.
I do that twice a year on a strong dosage of Mescalito.
--------------------
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durantz
Stranger



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.
I do that twice a year on a strong dosage of Mescalito.
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
@Seanfu It's a bit hard to find evidence against something which doesn't exist... the definition of God makes it unable to be proved false... but this definition is simply a human creation and has no bearing on objective reality.
Again I refer back to elves, trolls, gremlins etc. What purpose does it serve to believe they exist?
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Seanfu
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14084083 - 03/07/11 10:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
It's not like we can go out into the desert and find evidence of God.
I do that twice a year on a strong dosage of Mescalito.
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
@Seanfu It's a bit hard to find evidence against something which doesn't exist... the definition of God makes it unable to be proved false... but this definition is simply a human creation and has no bearing on objective reality.
Again I refer back to elves, trolls, gremlins etc. What purpose does it serve to believe they exist?
It serves no purpose.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14084101 - 03/07/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's a bitch, yes, it is likely we are all biological robots
is this such a bad thing?
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14084147 - 03/07/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
It's a bitch, yes, it is likely we are all biological robots
is this such a bad thing?
no, the bitch was that god cannot be disproven. As for death anxiety, I think we all would be afraid of ceasing to function.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz]
#14084175 - 03/07/11 10:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
Unlike some of my quips, it is fact. I live in Vegas and have a garden full of Peruvianus and will be heading out to Lake Mead in 3 to 6 weeks for my semi-annual visit to commune with the gods.
--------------------
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
Unlike some of my quips, it is fact. I live in Vegas and have a garden full of Peruvianus and will be heading out to Lake Mead in 3 to 6 weeks for my semi-annual visit to commune with the gods.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: Seanfu]
#14084194 - 03/07/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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no, the bitch was that god cannot be disproven.
It doesn't bother me. If people need to believe in God then that is fine by me. And it would be very hard to believe in something that could be proven false. This is the foundation of all pseudo-science.
It actually makes these people quite predictable because you can study their laws and understand how they see the world. This can work in your advantage.
As far as ceasing to function. Does a bacteria fear death?
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durantz
Stranger



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
Unlike some of my quips, it is fact. I live in Vegas and have a garden full of Peruvianus and will be heading out to Lake Mead in 3 to 6 weeks for my semi-annual visit to commune with the gods.
I like your style! I think I may have to emulate your behaviour in my country. We have a massive desert!
But we have no Mescaline... would shrooms be sufficient?
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Since both are self-proclaimed with the intent of making one look superior to others without having to change or do anything whatsoever, I consider these a double-fail.
Actually, they are the same thing. But nothing is stopping anybody from shitting all over a spiritual experience they had by using it in service of the ego. It happens all the time.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
Unlike some of my quips, it is fact. I live in Vegas and have a garden full of Peruvianus and will be heading out to Lake Mead in 3 to 6 weeks for my semi-annual visit to commune with the gods.
same time I will be meeting for the first time with sir Iboga. let's meet in the spirit plane
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deranger] 1
#14084530 - 03/08/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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To the best of my knowledge, you need at least three full days to deal with the IbogaMan and must be ready to face ALL your crap. It is not sparkles and skittles.
--------------------
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: durantz] 1
#14084551 - 03/08/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
hehe I was waiting for someone to say that.
Unlike some of my quips, it is fact. I live in Vegas and have a garden full of Peruvianus and will be heading out to Lake Mead in 3 to 6 weeks for my semi-annual visit to commune with the gods.
I like your style! I think I may have to emulate your behaviour in my country. We have a massive desert!
But we have no Mescaline... would shrooms be sufficient?
Of course shrooms would work, but I save my shrooms for forest hikes.
Now I may be revealing my wacky belief here, but mescaline cactus blends better with the desert. PM me if you are interested in a live or dried cutting.
--------------------
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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someone on another forum compared it to salvia, in terms of "realness". salvia scares the living shit out of me on breakthrough dosages.
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Cups
technically "here"


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Posts: 1,925
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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deranger]
#14084668 - 03/08/11 01:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm sure you know but watch the dosage on that shit. Slow your heart down too much and that's a trip of a lifetime. Literally.
It's on my list though.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Born Again vs. Enlightened [Re: deranger]
#14086139 - 03/08/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deranger said:

someone on another forum compared it to salvia, in terms of "realness". salvia scares the living shit out of me on breakthrough dosages.
Wait are you comparing mescaline to salvia?
Mescaline is so smooth it's like being this somewhat dreamy haze.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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I found mescaline fairly boring when I tried it, it wasn't that larger dose but I've had interesting times on low doses of shrooms and LSD before. Good to see you've tried 2C-E, it's a seriously cool drug IMO.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
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no, ibogaine to salvia.. just a certain aspect of the experience though, I doubt they are very much alike at all.
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