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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot

Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14064085 - 03/04/11 12:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:

Screaming Eagle said:
Gingrich is a true American hero.  I pray we're so lucky that he becomes our leader.



I agree. We DESERVE a leader of his caliber.




Thank God.  I was afraid this world was going to hell in a handbasket.  It's good to see that there's another TRUE American left in this world.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14066172 - 03/04/11 12:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I should probably begin abstaining from voting.

I voted for Scott Walker (R-WI) in the last election here, and that seems to have done little but bring my democratic process to a complete and utter halt.

This is what I get for voting for a Republican for the first time in twenty-something years.



The only people corrupting the democratic process in WI are the Dem Fleebaggers.  Not showing up for work?  No no.




Yes, and the Nazi Kapitan who worked the door at Dachau would have been derelict in his duty if he didnt' shepherd his charges through the portal.

When simply doing your job can result in vast and terrible consequences for tens of thousands of people, being willing to NOT do that job is a virtue in itself.



What of the millions left bereft of their government?  And what makes these consequences terrible?  A 5% pay cut?  No more obligation to pay union dues or belong to one?  Why do you hate freedom?  There are no collective bargaining rights.  If it was a right everybody would have them.  But they don't.  Only about 12% of the population has these supposed rights.  Do you think some people have rights that others do not?


--------------------

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OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14066242 - 03/04/11 01:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There are no collective bargaining rights.




It seems to me that everybody does have a right to choose whether to go to work or not.  If 10,000 other people also happen to not want to go to work, well they're free to do that too.  Collective bargaining in the labor market is akin to price fixing by sellers, but, well, I don't think that should be illegal either.  :shrug:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14066277 - 03/04/11 01:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There are no collective bargaining rights.




It seems to me that everybody does have a right to choose whether to go to work or not.  If 10,000 other people also happen to not want to go to work, well they're free to do that too.  Collective bargaining in the labor market is akin to price fixing by sellers, but, well, I don't think that should be illegal either.  :shrug:



Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.


--------------------

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OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14066370 - 03/04/11 01:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.




They also have the right to not show up to work without quitting, under penalty of being fired.  And they still have that right even if 10,000 other people are exercising that right at the same time.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14066405 - 03/04/11 01:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.




They also have the right to not show up to work without quitting, under penalty of being fired.  And they still have that right even if 10,000 other people are exercising that right at the same time.



Yep.  They sure do.  Of course, if they get fired for cause (absenteeism) they have no right to unemployment benefits.  I know.  I beat assholes for just that.


--------------------

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OfflineChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14066564 - 03/04/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yep.  They sure do.  Of course, if they get fired for cause (absenteeism) they have no right to unemployment benefits.  I know.  I beat assholes for just that.




Damn right...

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OfflineChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest
Female


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14067707 - 03/04/11 06:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.




They also have the right to not show up to work without quitting, under penalty of being fired.  And they still have that right even if 10,000 other people are exercising that right at the same time.



Yep.  They sure do.  Of course, if they get fired for cause (absenteeism) they have no right to unemployment benefits.  I know.  I beat assholes for just that.




I'm sorry, but what?


--------------------
If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?

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OfflineAtomsk
King of the Space Pirates


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: ChelleLaBelle]
    #14068114 - 03/04/11 08:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I cant wait for Newt to throw a temper tantrum and shut down the election when it doesnt go his way.

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OfflineScreaming Eagle
American Patriot


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 54
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Atomsk]
    #14068151 - 03/04/11 08:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Atomsk said:
I cant wait for Newt to throw a temper tantrum and shut down the election when it doesnt go his way.




You can't blame a guy for being passionate about what he loves.  It's the American Way.  If it wasn't for guys like Gingrich, we would've never won a little war called the AMERICAN REVOLUTION.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14068619 - 03/04/11 10:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I should probably begin abstaining from voting.

I voted for Scott Walker (R-WI) in the last election here, and that seems to have done little but bring my democratic process to a complete and utter halt.

This is what I get for voting for a Republican for the first time in twenty-something years.



The only people corrupting the democratic process in WI are the Dem Fleebaggers.  Not showing up for work?  No no.




Yes, and the Nazi Kapitan who worked the door at Dachau would have been derelict in his duty if he didnt' shepherd his charges through the portal.

When simply doing your job can result in vast and terrible consequences for tens of thousands of people, being willing to NOT do that job is a virtue in itself.



What of the millions left bereft of their government?  And what makes these consequences terrible?  A 5% pay cut?  No more obligation to pay union dues or belong to one?  Why do you hate freedom?  There are no collective bargaining rights.  If it was a right everybody would have them.  But they don't.  Only about 12% of the population has these supposed rights.  Do you think some people have rights that others do not?




This is a Union-busting bill, and that is that.

I've been a Union member (Teamsters) for nearly a decade and it's been great for me personally.

I make a ton of money, have great benefits, have amazing job security, and work for one of the largest and most successful companies in the country.

My company, meanwhile, manages to compete quite effectively with other non-union companies in the same business.

Walker has been trying, very hard, to convince everyone here that people are in Unions against their will, that they receive no tangible benefits from said association, that they are pawns of the leadership, etc.

None of this is true.

Walker's catchprase, as of late, is that you can't have a negotiation when one side refuses to negotiate.  But all he is doing with this bill is attempting to deprive the Unions of any leverage they have in negotiations so he can subject them to his whims, whatever those may be.

It's going too far and he knows it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14069014 - 03/04/11 11:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed.  I could support this if he would push for a free market, but he's pushing to have the state have some special privledge to not have to negotiate with unions, and to be able to actively shut them down.

This seems to be a clear first amendment violation to me.


The problems with unions that I have are when the law gives them special benefits.  The way I see it, Unions are as much a part of the free market as temp agencies, outsourcing firms, and corporations who have nonnegotiable hiring policies.  If a group of people chooses to associate and contract with a common entity for employment on terms that entity can negotiate, its nobodies buisness.  The state, or any employer, can take it or leave it.

What I can't stand is the quasi-fascist notion that the state should have special privledges over private industry to get thugs to bust up inconvieniant buisness arrangements such as unions.  The way i see it, those people had every right to strike unofficially.  If they violate their contract than their employer can refuse to honor it or fire the lot of em- a simple contract law matter.

The state allready has its own private army a'la its police power- they don't need special standing when contracting for normal services like labor, et cet.

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OfflineCanis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: ChelleLaBelle]
    #14069039 - 03/04/11 11:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChelleLaBelle said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.




They also have the right to not show up to work without quitting, under penalty of being fired.  And they still have that right even if 10,000 other people are exercising that right at the same time.



Yep.  They sure do.  Of course, if they get fired for cause (absenteeism) they have no right to unemployment benefits.  I know.  I beat assholes for just that.




I'm sorry, but what?



Sounds like he beats people who choose not to come int work one day but decide to come into work later and/or try to get unemployment benefits when fired. I of course could be mistaken.

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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Canis latrans]
    #14069169 - 03/05/11 12:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

beat can also mean to overcome, i.e. I beat the ticket in court

I presume he refers to defeating various state-administered unemployment compensation claims that an employee has filed and he contests.  He "beats assholes" by defeating the person's claim before the board that administers claims by demonstrating that the person was not laid off but fired for cause, hence should be denied unemployment benefits and zappa shouldn't have to pay higher unemployment tax (or whatever pseudonym they call it where he is to pretend its not a tax).

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14069823 - 03/05/11 07:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I've been a Union member (Teamsters) for nearly a decade and it's been great for me personally.

I make a ton of money, have great benefits, have amazing job security, and work for one of the largest and most successful companies in the country.

My company, meanwhile, manages to compete quite effectively with other non-union companies in the same business.





how's that work out for others that arent in the union, I recall my mom
going to NY for some show she was supposed to be doing, while she was
setting up her booth several union members gathered around to inform her
she wasnt allowed to do her job that it was a union job and she's have to
pay them to do it


so I guess if job security and competitiveness means they can intimidate
old women at a trade show, then they sure seem to have the market cornered

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14070038 - 03/05/11 09:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I've been a Union member (Teamsters) for nearly a decade and it's been great for me personally.

I make a ton of money, have great benefits, have amazing job security, and work for one of the largest and most successful companies in the country.

My company, meanwhile, manages to compete quite effectively with other non-union companies in the same business.





how's that work out for others that arent in the union




It doesn't work out as well for people not in the Union, that's the point.

Collective bargaining has power.

My group of workers, by joining a Union and pooling our resources, have managed to get more concessions from our employer than we would have been able to do by ourselves.  That is the very point of collective bargaining.  In a normal business-employee relationship, ALL of the power is with the employer.  A Union is merely a means to redress that balance.

Listen, I have great benefits.  Health, vision, dental, drug, legal, and life insurance that I don't pay a dime for.  No co-pays, no premiums, nothing.  I make amazing money, with nice raises every year.  I have great working conditions, five weeks paid vacation every year, and am guaranteed a job as long as the company exists and I don't do anything hellaciously stupid.  In addition, it is stipulated that nearly all promotion must come from within, so everyone in my management team used to do a job similar to mine and I have great prospects for advancement, should I choose to pursue that.

There are people just down the block from my company that work for our largest competitor.  They are non-union, have no benefits, and make minimum wage.

You tell me how that's working out for them.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14070072 - 03/05/11 09:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds pretty awesome, I can only contrast that with the corrupt unions it's been my misfortune to have had to deal with.  I have nothing against the idea of unions if they are not corrupt and they are not exclusive.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 9 days, 4 hours
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Icelander]
    #14070079 - 03/05/11 09:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure there are two sides to the coin.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: ChelleLaBelle]
    #14070136 - 03/05/11 09:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChelleLaBelle said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Sure, they have a right to quit.  Just like everybody else.




They also have the right to not show up to work without quitting, under penalty of being fired.  And they still have that right even if 10,000 other people are exercising that right at the same time.



Yep.  They sure do.  Of course, if they get fired for cause (absenteeism) they have no right to unemployment benefits.  I know.  I beat assholes for just that.




I'm sorry, but what?



When I had employees who I fired for chronic absenteeism they would try to get unemployment benefits.  I would be notified of this by the people at unemployment who take my checks.  I would dispute it and there would be a hearing.  I would go to the hearing with their pay record and the payroll records of the other employees.  They would be denied benefits.  I beat them, the assholes.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Newt Gingrich is an Odd Duck [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14070171 - 03/05/11 10:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I've been a Union member (Teamsters) for nearly a decade and it's been great for me personally.

I make a ton of money, have great benefits, have amazing job security, and work for one of the largest and most successful companies in the country.

My company, meanwhile, manages to compete quite effectively with other non-union companies in the same business.





how's that work out for others that arent in the union




It doesn't work out as well for people not in the Union, that's the point.

Collective bargaining has power.

My group of workers, by joining a Union and pooling our resources, have managed to get more concessions from our employer than we would have been able to do by ourselves.  That is the very point of collective bargaining.  In a normal business-employee relationship, ALL of the power is with the employer.  A Union is merely a means to redress that balance.

Listen, I have great benefits.  Health, vision, dental, drug, legal, and life insurance that I don't pay a dime for.  No co-pays, no premiums, nothing.  I make amazing money, with nice raises every year.  I have great working conditions, five weeks paid vacation every year, and am guaranteed a job as long as the company exists and I don't do anything hellaciously stupid.  In addition, it is stipulated that nearly all promotion must come from within, so everyone in my management team used to do a job similar to mine and I have great prospects for advancement, should I choose to pursue that.

There are people just down the block from my company that work for our largest competitor.  They are non-union, have no benefits, and make minimum wage.

You tell me how that's working out for them.



You work in the private sector.  I believe I know what company.  Out of respect for you I won't name it unless you do.  What happens to a private sector company that gives up too much to the workers?  Gone.  Your company has been protected against its competitor by the government.  Your company does not compete on a level playing field because of government favoritism.

By the way, you do pay for all of those benefits by getting less cash.  You have no choice but to accept that which has little value to you personally.  A young single man without children would have to be an idiot to choose those benefits over cash.  You get five weeks vacation every year but it costs you lost earnings.  Who wouldn't rather work most of those and bank the cash?  You have no choice.  Serf to the union one size fits all straightjacket.

This has nothing to do with public sector unionism.  If you guys ruin a company it goes away.  That is why private sector unionism has fallen below 10%.  They kill companies.  But that is not the case with public unions at all.  The government never fucking goes away, it has no competition and politicians are not the proper adversary across the bargaining table because they are beholden to a very great extent to the unions for their jobs.  That is a definitively corrupt condition.


--------------------

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