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OfflineEllis Dee
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Let's not support our troops
    #1406038 - 03/24/03 01:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

These last few days since the war began in Iraq I've been reading in the paper about the anti-war movement in America supporting the troops as being patriotic. They seem to believe it's ok to be against a war as long as you support the people fighting it, then you're ok, because you're still patriotic. That whole notion strikes me as popycock, what utter rubbish. Here's an analogy for comparison as I see it, you're opposed to burglary but for burglars. The way I see it, it's the same principle as being against a war and for the combatants.

I'm opposed to the war and the troops in it. I see supporting the troops as supporting the war. I feel like the whole anti-war movement in my country has lost it's way by supporting that which it says it's against.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406044 - 03/24/03 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy. They are required to follow orders. I support our troops and hope they return home safely.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406046 - 03/24/03 01:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

part of a soldier's job is to go off and fight, even if they personally do not agree with the reasoning behind the war. i'll bet that there are soldiers over there right now who don't want to be any part of this.

i support our troops. may they come home safely and as soon as possible.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406053 - 03/24/03 01:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not against the war, but I don't feel any more different about a dead soldier, or a dead Iraqi civilian.

Actually, I feel more strongly about civilian casualties than dead US/UK troops. The soldiers made a conscious decision that they wanted to be in that situation. The Iraqis didn't.

But in the end, they're all just dead people I don't know.


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1406087 - 03/24/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The soldiers made a conscious decision that they wanted to be in that situation.



Precisely. This is why I also refuse to support the "Allied" troops. If you enlist you must have some clue as to why you're enlisting in the first place....



--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1406089 - 03/24/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I had mixed feelings about this war for a few days. The war propaganda got to me a bit. I was roused up about any potential genocide in Iraq and a war could stop it. I shouldn't have fallen for it, I'm usually too smart for that, but genocide it an emotional issue for me.

I read in the papers and off the wires about our great victories we've had so far capturing oil fields. The oil fields are the most important to capture. The generals have their priorities, liberate the oil fields and then the people, lol. It shows it's about the oil, blood for oil. And now I see on television that in one city the marines are going door to door to fight people. That shows me indisputibly that this war is against arab people. You can't go door to door looking for people to fight and kill and claim differently. I can see myself in the Iraqis shoes there. Trying to stay safe and protect the family, trying to stay out of the combat. Maybe sitting in the living room with a loaded hunting rifle in case you've got to be a man and shoot to protect your family against hostiles. Then american troops come in and force you to kill them to protect your women and then kill you. It's unacceptable. Now as far as I'm concerned every US soldier and officer involved in this Iraqi conflict deserves to die for their crimes against civilians in their door to door terror operations.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1406097 - 03/24/03 02:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy.




True, they are pawns in this 'game'. I live and work in the DC area and I have many friends who work for DOD. Many have mis-givings about this conflict but they joined and agreed to follow orders and they do.

Quote:

Precisely. This is why I also refuse to support the "Allied" troops. If you enlist you must have some clue as to why you're enlisting in the first place....




Believe it or not, many join because they love and want to defend their country. Many have been there since before the scum-bag clinton and they had no idea what would happen with Bush.



--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (03/24/03 02:08 PM)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: grib]
    #1406102 - 03/24/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Rail_Gun,

I'm impressed that you are against this war. I never would have guessed that because you used to be such a hardcore right-wingnut


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1406117 - 03/24/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

He's only against the war because he's afraid they'll legalize abortion in Iraq. :smirk:


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1406137 - 03/24/03 02:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Being mostly conservative doesn't mean I have to stop thinking for myself. Almost everyone I know is for the war and I need to be careful how I word things about the war when I'm around them. This forum is my only outlet for being completely honest about my feelings on the Iraq war.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406145 - 03/24/03 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hitler,

VERY FUNNY

Rail_Gun,

rite on


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406171 - 03/24/03 02:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i support the troops...the iraqi troops


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: rhizo]
    #1406235 - 03/24/03 02:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i support the troops...the iraqi troops

Is that a joke?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Murex]
    #1406282 - 03/24/03 03:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

both are humans.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Murex]
    #1406284 - 03/24/03 03:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it's not a joke. i can't believe how brave they are. the pentagon has been using the american media to run a pretty hard core psyops campaign. i'd probably surrender after seeing b-52s carpet bombing and a moab tested on tv.


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: rhizo]
    #1406301 - 03/24/03 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You support the ones that fight, or the ones that surrender?


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406309 - 03/24/03 03:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If Buish was any kind of a man he would lead his men into battle like Caesar and napoleon, or Ajax and Achilles, or Hannibal over the Alps. No he says he is behingd the men 100 percent but he is actually behind them ten thousand miles.

mj

Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Means everyone.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1406313 - 03/24/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Thou Shalt Not Kill.




Thou shalt not murder would be a more accurate translation.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleClosetCase
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406323 - 03/24/03 03:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe sitting in the living room with a loaded hunting rifle in case you've got to be a man and shoot to protect your family against hostiles. Then american troops come in and force you to kill them to protect your women and then kill you. It's unacceptable. Now as far as I'm concerned every US soldier and officer involved in this Iraqi conflict deserves to die for their crimes against civilians in their door to door terror operations. 




Knowing that Americans DONT want civilian deaths AND that a lot of Iraqi troops are in civilian clothes, does it really make sense to sit in your living room with a rifle aimed at the troops coming in?  If you were a troop wouldn't you shoot someone like this, knowing about the ambush that happened?  I would shoot you.  :tongue:  (although I completely disagree with this war and would NEVER serve in THIS army)  If our soldiers deserve to die it's for invading another country. 


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1406352 - 03/24/03 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe sitting in the living room with a loaded hunting rifle in case you've got to be a man and shoot to protect your family against hostiles. Then american troops come in and force you to kill them to protect your women and then kill you. It's unacceptable. Now as far as I'm concerned every US soldier and officer involved in this Iraqi conflict deserves to die for their crimes against civilians in their door to door terror operations. 




Knowing that Americans DONT want civilian deaths AND that a lot of Iraqi troops are in civilian clothes, does it really make sense to sit in your living room with a rifle aimed at the troops coming in?  If you were a troop wouldn't you shoot someone like this, knowing about the ambush that happened?  I would shoot you.  :tongue:  (although I completely disagree with this war and would NEVER serve in THIS army)  If our soldiers deserve to die it's for invading another country. 



Fighting soldiers is one thing, but attacking families in their homes is always wrong. If soldiers come in my house I'd kill them, and I'm not kidding they'de be dead. It's not ambushing soldiers if soldiers come in your house and threaten your family. You have some twisted ideas on this. If I'm living in a combat zone and soldiers come to my house with guns and I feel they're any threat to my family I'll be a man and do what I have to do. You can never justify attacking civilian families door to door. 


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (03/24/03 03:47 PM)


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1406355 - 03/24/03 03:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i support american troops who surrender. if you're talking about iraqi troops surrendering, well i guess you can believe the propaganda, like when they said that 8,000 troops had surrendered en masse...more like en bullshit. wake up


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406360 - 03/24/03 03:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I nominate Rail Gun as the most unpredictable independent thinker on this forum. I respect that immensely.


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1406392 - 03/24/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I nominate Rail Gun as the most unpredictable independent thinker on this forum. I respect that immensely. 



I nominate luvdemshrooms  :tongue: 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1406395 - 03/24/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1406402 - 03/24/03 03:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.




















Gen William Sherman


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1406406 - 03/24/03 03:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

I nominate Rail Gun as the most unpredictable independent thinker on this forum. I respect that immensely. 



I nominate luvdemshrooms  :tongue: 



What the hell are you talking about???  Luvdemshrooms is easily one of the most predictable members on this board.  It's always stuff about how "libbies" ruin everything, U.N. is worthless, Welfare is stealing, Protesters support Saddam, France sux, etc. and insert witty insult here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1406414 - 03/24/03 03:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What the hell are you talking about??? Luvdemshrooms is easily one of the most predictable members on this board. It's always stuff about how "libbies" ruin everything, U.N. is worthless, Welfare is stealing, Protesters support Saddam, France sux, etc. and insert witty insult here. 



It's just too hard to get sarcasm across on an internet forum  :wink: 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406447 - 03/24/03 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Rail_Gun, I really admire your posts in this thread. I am happy to know that you see what a terrible thing this really is.

I think the problem with Americans is that they are thousands of miles away from this war. If this was in OUR soil, Im sure things would be a hell of a lot different. No one wants to witness war first hand. I mean, the American people as we speak are doing things normally, "Oh, there's a war, I hope everything is okay"...Then doing their daily activities. We live in such a privelaged place.

No matter what the government says "Oh we are not targeting civilians", I know for a fact that those troops have a strong hatred towards the arabic people. They have been brainwashed to think that they too are part of the problem. I know some people who were in the first gulf war, and still to this day call Arabs "sand niggers"... That shows obvious disrespect and ignorance to the whole subject. We are really not going to be able to destroy Iraq's infrastructure and buildings without many civilan deaths. No matter how "smart" our missles are, we are still going to inflict a lot of damage upon the people.



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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406452 - 03/24/03 04:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I read in the papers and off the wires about our great victories we've had so far capturing oil fields. The oil fields are the most important to capture. The generals have their priorities, liberate the oil fields and then the people, lol. It shows it's about the oil, blood for oil.

actually, it's about protecting the iraqi infrastucture. let's face it, iraq's economy depends heavily on their oil fields. if we allowed saddam to torch them on his way out of power, then how will we expect the iraqi economy to flourish when we leave?

And now I see on television that in one city the marines are going door to door to fight people. That shows me indisputibly that this war is against arab people.

the reason they were going door to door was that the so called "civillians" that they were fighting, were actually soldiers wearing civillian attire. it's all part of the guerrilla/terroristic tactics that saddam's regime has resorted to in order to gain some kind of an edge and slow the US troops down so that he can remain in power longer.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: htownkid28]
    #1406485 - 03/24/03 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And now I see on television that in one city the marines are going door to door to fight people. That shows me indisputibly that this war is against arab people.

the reason they were going door to door was that the so called "civillians" that they were fighting, were actually soldiers wearing civillian attire. it's all part of the guerrilla/terroristic tactics that saddam's regime has resorted to in order to gain some kind of an edge and slow the US troops down so that he can remain in power longer.



Has it occured to you that civilians in Iraq are armed, almost every Iraqi home has at least one gun. I'd bet that a lot of these "soldiers in civilian attire" are civilians doing all they can to protect their family. When soldiers start going door to door every man has the responsibliity to stick up. There's no way to justify going in to a city and terrorizing every family in the city. This kind of terror should meet with armed resistance. This is the sort of intolerable act that forced the American colonists to rebellion against English tyranny.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: rhizo]
    #1406489 - 03/24/03 04:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually there really is no "Iraq" what they call Iraq in the news is really Utah, and this is really a genocide of the Mormons by subtererranium bug people who have seized controll of the media/military.

You're the one who needs to wake up... and grow up.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1406518 - 03/24/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You're the one who needs to wake up...




you're the one who's buyin what they're sellin...not me. have fun "liberating" the iraqi people.


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: htownkid28]
    #1406536 - 03/24/03 04:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Finally a voice of reason in this thread.
How come you all don't mention how the Iraqi troops attack from windows and doors of hospitals. They obviously have on regard for the safety of their own people. If your Iraqi soldiers are so brave, how come they hid behind the skirts of their women and children? Feigning a surrender only to ambush puts the lives of the soldiers that genuinely try to surrender at risk. They obviously have regard for the lives of there own people, but then Saddam has already proven that.
Any Iraqi fighter not in uniform or wearing some sort of visible insignia should be treated as an illegal combatant under the rules of the Geneva convention. Put them in Guantanamo and see how they get along with Al Quada. If they really hate each other, maybe they will kill each other in there.


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406537 - 03/24/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Has it occured to you that civilians in Iraq are armed, almost every Iraqi home has at least one gun.

yes it has. it was reported months ago that saddam issued guns to every iraqi citizen specifically for the purpose of fighting the US soldiers upon their entering the city. at the same time, though, it was no secret to the iraqi people that war was on the horizon and they knew that coalition forces would be passing thru their cities and towns. so, having said that, if you were an iraqi citizen why would you step out of your house and engage either side knowing that there would most assuredly be return fire? why would you risk your life and the lives of your family like that? i don't blame the marines for fighting back. if i was out there and someone was firing at me from a house, i would definitely return fire. btw, these weren't hunting rifles these people had. so, the picture that you painted of bloodthirsty american soldiers attacking families and looting the country doesn't really hold up.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406544 - 03/24/03 04:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I feel like the whole anti-war movement in my country has lost it's way by supporting that which it says it's against.

You make good points. I think that many anti-war protestors say they support the troops so as to NOT get the basic argument(s) derailed by additional emotionalism; sort of like the medical marijuana people saying that are not for full legalization but for compassion.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: htownkid28]
    #1406546 - 03/24/03 04:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

if you were an iraqi citizen why would you step out of your house and engage either side knowing that there would most assuredly be return fire?



I'm not talking about guys going out and shooting at soldiers, I'm talking about marines going door to door bringing the battle to the family kitchen of every home in a city.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: htownkid28]
    #1406548 - 03/24/03 04:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Iraqi civillians have no need to protect their families from our soliers. You make it sound like we go in and rape and execute the civillians. That is Saddams MO ntot ours.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406552 - 03/24/03 04:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Iraq has brought the battle to the suburbs not us. Why is that so hard for you to understand. We would gladly meet them in the dessert if they had the balls.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406562 - 03/24/03 05:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Iraq has brought the battle to the suburbs not us. Why is that so hard for you to understand. We would gladly meet them in the dessert if they had the balls.



That's the problem, the US started a war to get the A-rabs oil. They'de be fools to fight pitched battles against the most powerful military in the world. It's not a matter of balls, it's brains.

Do you know many military men and conservatives? I do. They're about all I know. They all hate the A-rabs, towel heads, and sand niggers. The soldiers on the ground mostly have this same bloodthirstyness in their veins. Given this I'm not surprised that they are attacking families.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406585 - 03/24/03 05:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I can't say I really support the troops, but I wish them the best. I'd rather not see anyone harmed. I don't want to see the american soldiers succeed in killing the Iraqi people, and I don't want to see american troops killed.

One of the main reasons I'm against the war is because I don't want to see ANYONE harmed.


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406602 - 03/24/03 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is quite a leap to go from searching to attacking. If a gang of armed FBI agents came to your house for whatever purpose would you go out to meet them like a man and keep any danger from your family for as long as you possibly could, or would you hide behind your wife and kids like a coward?


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406709 - 03/24/03 06:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Kind of odd you mention the FBI coming around, they have, and it was on a terrorism lead. It was a week after the 9-11 attacks, I think I posted about it then too. I've got a Lebanese friend that runs his own advertising company. One of his clients had him put together a trade show booth for the water works. He took some photographs of the water works to a printer to have them enlarged poster size on a special kind of white foamish cardboardy stuff, the bill was over a thousand dollars and he paid in cash with hundread dollar bills. The men at the print shop thought it was suspicious for a middle eastern man with a heavy accent to be geting pictures of the water works blown up and paying the thousand dollar bill in cash with large bills and called up the FBI men telling them there was a terrorist getting some pics to show to his terrorist cell. They stalled him on his order and two FBI men came to his house and he explained the truth to him and they pretty much interogated him about his political and religious beliefs for a couple hours and made him give the names of a few friends they could talk to, one of whom was me. They came and saw me, I almost shit myself. I had a hundred things going through my mind they might be investigating me for, I told them they couldn't come and they were snotty about it, but I talked to them on the porch for a few minutes. I told them "if he's a terrorist than I'm a terrorist." Then I got mad and told them to leave, and they did. Haven't seen them since. I hope they never come back, I hate those cock suckers.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1406733 - 03/24/03 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Right of wrong that would have seemed suspicious to me too.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406778 - 03/24/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Right of wrong that would have seemed suspicious to me too. "

I don't think that the terrorists would be making posters of their targets.


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Phluck]
    #1406784 - 03/24/03 07:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why not? If a group of 10 in a sleeper cell were making plans they would need visuals to help lay out those plans. I don't think they would make plans without some large scale pictures.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406896 - 03/24/03 08:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

They could all use an "etch a sketch" to be less suspect. :grin:


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Skikid16]
    #1407018 - 03/24/03 09:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Alba, you are the bottle cap"
"shalib, you are this pebble"
"the cigarette pack is the water works"


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1407156 - 03/24/03 11:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

insert witty insult here



Learn to read ***edited by Rono***
I never said protesters support Saddam.
:laugh:


--------------------
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Edited by Rono (03/25/03 04:08 AM)


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1407202 - 03/25/03 12:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I never said protesters support Saddam.



Maybe not directly, but you've certainly implied it in many cases.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1407352 - 03/25/03 03:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Show me where.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1407407 - 03/25/03 03:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say that many protesters support saddam just as there are some on this site. Not all but many.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1407469 - 03/25/03 04:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There does seem to be quite a few. :confused: 


I don't support the war as it is being waged, but come on, Why would anyone support a dictator who has commited such atrocities. And for an American to say that they would like to see our troops fail, WOW, that just seems wrong to me.
I don't support Bush at all and I think he has ulterior motives, but that has nothing to do with my feelings about the soldiers. I don't support them in the war effort but I would like to see them come home safely. Even if that means winning for Bush. 


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1407482 - 03/25/03 04:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I don't support the war as it is being waged, but come on, Why would anyone support a dictator who has commited such atrocities.



ask rhizo..

Quote:

And for an American to say that they would like to see our troops fail, WOW, that just seems wrong to me.




ask rhizo and alex

Quote:

I don't support Bush at all and I think he has ulterior motives



speculation...but that's your right.

Quote:

I don't support them in the war effort but I would like to see them come home safely.




you don't support their efforts but you support them? Sounds more like a CYA statement that is all too common.



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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1407498 - 03/25/03 05:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with what rail gun said on this. How can you be against the war and support the soldiers whole heartedly who are fighting in it. Illogical.

But do I want them to fail? Absolutely not!

It is a bit of a delima for me, I admit.

And I never said that I supported the soldiers. I said I would like to see them safe.


--------------------
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-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/25/03 05:05 AM)


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1407533 - 03/25/03 05:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I DON'T support the war...no big surprise there.
I DON'T support the troops...either side...they are both just puppets for their respective masters.
I DO hope that this is resolved quickly with minimal loss of life to both sides.


--------------------
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Edited by Rono (03/25/03 05:24 AM)


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Rono]
    #1407537 - 03/25/03 05:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

At least your honest i suppose.....


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1407578 - 03/25/03 05:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Show me where.



I would, but the search function isn't working.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1408837 - 03/25/03 01:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To those of you who don't support the troops:
Do any of you have loved ones in this war? If not, good for you. I wish I was in your shoes right now.
These people give up their lives for our country whether the war is just, or unjust. I believe they should be supported either way. There is a difference in supporting the war and supporting the troops. I don't support the war, I think that Bush is all wrong in his decisions thus far- but I do wish my father to come home safe, as well as any of the other soldiers out there. My heart goes out to their friends and families.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: shroomer girlie]
    #1408919 - 03/25/03 02:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Princess, I've got a good friend in the marine corps. I know he's been deployed to the kuwaiti border and his unit is in combat. That's all I know about his whereabouts right now. War is hell and somtimes it's necessary but this time I think it's a crock. I'm against the war in Iraq and I can't support those doing actions which I think are dastardly. My friend is in a combat zone, maybe he's with your dad, I have no way of knowing. But I don't support what he's doing and I can't support them for doing it.

Soldiers put their lives on the line. Our boys over seas are in combat now. Lots of them won't come home, or if they do come home they'll be missing arms and legs or maybe be blind. It's hell. And it's all in vain to kill other men to seize their oil. There's no way I can put my support behind that.

Like I said in my first post, I don't see how someone can be against the war and for the combatants. It seems like a paradox to me, like being against rape, but for the rapists, or against burglary, but for the burglars. Maybe the fact that so many people can think these contradictory things at the same time is a mass exercise in doublethink. It doesn't seem the least bit logical to me.

Do you understand what I'm thinking? I trust this is sufficiently clear.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409448 - 03/25/03 06:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thought criminal!


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1409485 - 03/25/03 06:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thought criminal!



Don't say that, the telescreen might see, that would be doubleplus ungood.

Hey, it's almost time for the two minutes hate! I gotta go!


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409494 - 03/25/03 06:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Like I said in my first post, I don't see how someone can be against the war and for the combatants. It seems like a paradox to me, like being against rape, but for the rapists, or against burglary, but for the burglars. Maybe the fact that so many people can think these contradictory things at the same time is a mass exercise in doublethink. It doesn't seem the least bit logical to me.



A rapist or burglar does the said crime out of their own initiative. Desertion can get these soldiers executed. Refusing to fight can get them courtmarshalled. They didn't all decide to be in this war. They are just doing their job.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409518 - 03/25/03 06:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think being against the war and supporting the troops is nearly the same as being against rape but for the rapists, I think its more like being against rape, but supporting the penis, the penis didn't choose (arguable) to commit the rape, but without the penis the rape couldn't have occured.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1409525 - 03/25/03 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Like I said in my first post, I don't see how someone can be against the war and for the combatants. It seems like a paradox to me, like being against rape, but for the rapists, or against burglary, but for the burglars. Maybe the fact that so many people can think these contradictory things at the same time is a mass exercise in doublethink. It doesn't seem the least bit logical to me.



A rapist or burglar does the said crime out of their own initiative. Desertion can get these soldiers executed. Refusing to fight can get them courtmarshalled. They didn't all decide to be in this war. They are just doing their job.



These soldiers are volunteers in a military force with a history of doing crap like this. It's not an excuse. These are volunteer soldiers. They're not fighting for their country, they're fighting for business interests.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409529 - 03/25/03 06:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Who's business intrests, last time I checked, soilders didn't recieve any monetary benefit from business deals as a result of war.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409535 - 03/25/03 06:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Also consider that you earn just above the poverty line in the military (excluding officers and benifits).


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Skikid16]
    #1409541 - 03/25/03 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Who's business intrests, last time I checked, soilders didn't recieve any monetary benefit from business deals as a result of war.



The oil interests. We've got oil executives inhabiting the white house and we're now in a war of conquest to obtain access to readily available cheap oil.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409549 - 03/25/03 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Read This
The last thing the small oil companies that Bush is affiliated with is more Iraqi oil coming in.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409559 - 03/25/03 07:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The oil interests. We've got oil executives inhabiting the white house and we're now in a war of conquest to obtain access to readily available cheap oil.


I don't see how the soldiers will benefit directly from this supposition. They'll have cheaper gas when they get home, just like me, who sat at home and smoked my way through this war.


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: z@z.com]
    #1409563 - 03/25/03 07:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You're talking about the troops benefiting! All they'll ever get out of the deal is veterans benefits and a shaft in the bum in the short term.

Here's a question for you? Does a pawn benefit from an opening gambit? Certainly not! It's to benefit development for the pieces. It's just like war. The little guys are cannon fodder that play the game for the big guys and they can lead an attack on the king, but they're not valuable.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: z@z.com]
    #1409590 - 03/25/03 07:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Read This
The last thing the small oil companies that Bush is affiliated with is more Iraqi oil coming in.



In 2000 I posted about GW Bush and an article in World Oil about how his presidency would greatly benefit business. I'd find it now to post for you, but the search function isn't working. I'll suffice it to say the trade publication World Oil disagrees with your article.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1409595 - 03/25/03 07:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If you happen to stumble upon it I would love to read it. Until I do though I guess I'll just have to take your word for it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: z@z.com]
    #1409663 - 03/25/03 07:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you remember Bush campaign promise to get middle eastern countries to "open up the spigots" in the oil fields? I do. It's always been part of his agenda to increase all oil production. I didn't find the article I was refering to but I did find one proving that Bush wants increased production from the middle east. From World Oil:

Bush concerned with awaiting energy problems.(Brief Article)
Author/s:
Issue: Feb, 2001

President George W Bush may have to act quickly to prove that he truly can "reshape the United States energy policy." Already, he faces not only the possibility of re-surging oil prices but also the fear of heating oil shortages in the Northeast; record-high natural gas prices nationwide; soaring electric bills and an almost daily threat of blackouts in California. An additional challenge for the Bush administration is OPEC's decision, last month, to cut production. That decision will greatly test his administration, especially after his top advisors expressed their opinions that the answer to potential energy crises is to increase oil and gas supplies. This means that the administration needs to find a better way to coax OPEC oil producers to hold prices down, a goal that can be realized, Bush said, by incorporating his plan to "utilize a strong diplomatic effort." Also, there is a need to boost the country's energy production, something Bush promises he will do, even suggesting that the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve be opened to oil and gas exploration, thus increasing the nation's self-sufficiency. He also needs to find a way to deal with the rapidly changing electricity supply system. For more on issues facing the new administration, see article page 43.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Gulf Publishing Co.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410086 - 03/26/03 12:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They didn't all decide to be in this war



they agreed when they signed on the dotted line.


--------------------

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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410148 - 03/26/03 02:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

they agreed when they signed on the dotted line.

yep, i wonder if it was hard to sign away your morality.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: ]
    #1410165 - 03/26/03 02:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Erm i wonder how many signed with an X


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Paid]
    #1410171 - 03/26/03 03:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

no, most just sign 666. its standard.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410450 - 03/26/03 06:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

They didn't all decide to be in this war



they agreed when they signed on the dotted line.



They didn't all agree to be in this specific war. Many of them signed up well before the start of this war. Many signed up so they could fight a more just war in Afghanistan and are now fighting an unjust war in Iraq.


--------------------


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410481 - 03/26/03 06:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It doesn't matter what they had in mind when they signed up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1410492 - 03/26/03 06:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ya, I know, cuz they have to fight anyway.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: ]
    #1410502 - 03/26/03 06:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

yep, i wonder if it was hard to sign away your morality.



so you're saying that soldiers sign their marality away? You don't understand purpose of the military do you?

i'd go on but i don't want to fluster you when you sit in your comfortable chair bashing the people who make it possible for you to do so.



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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410503 - 03/26/03 06:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Show me where.



I would, but the search function isn't working.



You couldn't even if it was. I've never suggested that most protesters were "for" Saddam.

I've said it was a waste of time for non citizens to protest and write. I have even said some protesters deserve to be arrested if they impede traffic or commit crimes. I may even have said that SOME protesters were / are pro Saddam, but never a blanket statement.

And if you can't back up something like what you claim, you should probably shut the fuck up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410520 - 03/26/03 06:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They didn't all agree to be in this specific war.



do you not understand what the purpose of a military is? It isn't a place where useless hippies stand around deciding what and what not to fight in.

Quote:

Many of them signed up well before the start of this war.



see above. You don't join the military for the scenery. You join to defend the United States and preserve it's interests. This is the same for every military in the World, except france, they just give up.

Quote:

Many signed up so they could fight a more just war in Afghanistan and are now fighting an unjust war in Iraq.



my God you are wrong. The people in the military (a majority) have been in the military for YEARS. Many in my batallion have 10+ years of experience.

if you answer anything answer this. What is the purpose of the military?


--------------------

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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410537 - 03/26/03 07:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

They didn't all agree to be in this specific war.



do you not understand what the purpose of a military is? It isn't a place where useless hippies stand around deciding what and what not to fight in.

Quote:

Many of them signed up well before the start of this war.



see above. You don't join the military for the scenery. You join to defend the United States and preserve it's interests. This is the same for every military in the World, except france, they just give up.



Look...I'm not trying to say the soldiers SHOULD have a choice in what wars they fight. All I'm saying is that supporting our troops and supporting the war aren't necessarily the same thing.

Quote:

Quote:

Many signed up so they could fight a more just war in Afghanistan and are now fighting an unjust war in Iraq.



my God you are wrong. The people in the military (a majority) have been in the military for YEARS. Many in my batallion have 10+ years of experience.



I'm wrong??? Are you saying no one signed up after 9/11? I wasn't trying to say that most of the military signed up then. I realize that probably the majority have been in the military a great deal longer.

Quote:

if you answer anything answer this. What is the purpose of the military?



To defend our borders.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410561 - 03/26/03 07:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

so you're saying that soldiers sign their marality away? You don't understand purpose of the military do you?

yes i am. yes i do, its purpose is to kill.

i'd go on but i don't want to fluster you when you sit in your comfortable chair bashing the people who make it possible for you to do so

who am i bashing? i made a point that your morality is relinquished when your join the military. if you are ordered to kill, you kill, you don't have a say in the matter, even if you think its wrong. this is why i could never join the military, my morality is sacred to me.



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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410569 - 03/26/03 07:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

supporting our troops and supporting the war aren't necessarily the same thing.




I think Rail Gun stated it best when he said: Supporting the soldiers and not the war is similar to being for rapists but against rape (i know you're not for rape..comparison only)

Quote:

I'm wrong??? Are you saying no one signed up after 9/11?




people sign up everyday, i'm saying that those people in the military (a majority) have been there for years and chose to fight in any war that is presented to them. Afterall this is a voulenteer force.

Quote:

To defend our borders.



did we do that in WW2? We are defending our borders by nipping saddam at the bud.


Off topic, sorta
As a side note i do believe in the future we should defend our own borders (to much hassle with the pacifists)and let the world solve their own problems. I believe that the situation in Korea should be dealt with the countries that are in the area like Russia, S. Korea, China etc...I'll be a bit surprised if we as americans support going into N. Korea unless our troops are attacked.


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410577 - 03/26/03 07:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah right. I am able to sit here right now because of what is going on in I raq.
Brilliant!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1410793 - 03/26/03 08:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah right. I am able to sit here right now because of what is going on in I raq.




What's brilliant is that i wa referring to the job that the soldiers have done in the present and in the past...it's sad.


--------------------

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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410992 - 03/26/03 09:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The people that made it possible for me to "sit in this chair" are long dead for the most part.Although Soldiers throughout the years have ensured a certain level of safety in our country.

It is true that a standing army is important to a nations security and that people need to have respect for the soldiers in that army. But what is going on in Iraq with these particular soldiers has nothing to do with our safety.

BTW, I think he was reffering to the soldiers who volunteered to fight this war. Not to soldiers in general.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/26/03 09:53 AM)


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1411029 - 03/26/03 10:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is true that a standing army is important to a nations security and that people need to have respect for the soldiers in that army. But what is going on in Iraq with these particular soldiers has nothing to do with our safety.



George Washington would disagree with you since a standing army was the definition of tyranny at his time.

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." -George Washington


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1411092 - 03/26/03 10:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think he was reffering to the soldiers who volunteered to fight this war



you can't just volunteer for one war. That's not how it works.


--------------------

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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1411123 - 03/26/03 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you can't just volunteer for one war. That's not how it works.





I understand that. But there were people who joined with this situation in mind.

There have been reports on the news of people quitting thier jobs and signing up and being shipped over there. I don't know how many, but there has been some.



--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1411132 - 03/26/03 10:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

George Washington would disagree with you since a standing army was the definition of tyranny at his time.

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." -George Washington





At his time? Well these are not his times now are they. Not trying to be a smartass, but in this world we definitely need a standing army.


--------------------
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1412241 - 03/26/03 06:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't even see where the quote mentions "standing army".


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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1413103 - 03/27/03 04:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I don't even see where the quote mentions "standing army".



How about these quotes from other founders...

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789).

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Draft Amendment, Virginia Delegation to the Constitutional Convention on June 16, 1788.

"Whenever a people are so enervated by luxury as to intrust the defence of their country to a regular, standing army, composed of mercenaries, the power of that country will remain under the direction and influence of the most wealthy citizens." Signed "A Farmer," in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Letter XIV, January 29, 1791.

" but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens... who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.'' Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers # 29.

"... I most cordially agree, with the honorable member last up, that a standing army is one of the greatest mischiefs that can possibly happen ... The most effectual way to guard against a standing army, is to render it unnecessary. The most effectual way to render it unnecessary, is to give the general government full power to call forth the militia, and exert the whole natural strength of the Union, when necessary. Thus you will furnish the people with sure and certain protection, without recurring to this evil; and the certainty of this protection from the whole will be a strong inducement to individual exertion." James Madison, in an immediate, agreeable response to George Mason during the Constitutional Convention debates, June 16, 1788.

"...17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that the militia shall not be subject to martial law, except in time of war, rebellion, or insurrection; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be kept up, except in eases of necessity; and that at all times, the military should be under strict subordination to the civil power; that in time of peace no soldier ought to be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, and in time of war, only by the civil magistrate, in such manner as the law directs." Letter on Rights from the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations as contained in the Journal of the Senate, June 9, 1790.

"I object to the power of Congress over the militia and to keep a standing army ... The last resource of a free people is taken away; for Congress are to have the command of the Militia ... Congress may give us a select militia which will, in fact, be a standing army--or Congress, afraid of a general militia, may say there shall be no militia at all. When a select militia is formed; the people in general may be disarmed." John Smilie in the Pennsylvania convention. The Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution, Vol. 2, Pages 508-509 (December 6, 1787).


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #1413374 - 03/27/03 07:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

["Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. "





That is why we must fight anti-gun legislation to the death!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1413414 - 03/27/03 07:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm with you on that.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1413591 - 03/27/03 08:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

["Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. "





That is why we must fight anti-gun legislation to the death!



Seems most Iraqi civilians own guns, so if that allows them to overthrow their government, why aren't they doing so?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1413800 - 03/27/03 09:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That is a good point.

I would say that the Iraqi people were raised with different Ideals than we Americans were. Although it is changing fast, We Americans were born and raised free. Before you can strip freedom from a people, you must disarm them.

That is why there has been such a push to take away guns along with our rights.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/27/03 09:59 AM)


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