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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: ]
    #1410502 - 03/26/03 06:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

yep, i wonder if it was hard to sign away your morality.



so you're saying that soldiers sign their marality away? You don't understand purpose of the military do you?

i'd go on but i don't want to fluster you when you sit in your comfortable chair bashing the people who make it possible for you to do so.



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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410503 - 03/26/03 06:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Show me where.



I would, but the search function isn't working.



You couldn't even if it was. I've never suggested that most protesters were "for" Saddam.

I've said it was a waste of time for non citizens to protest and write. I have even said some protesters deserve to be arrested if they impede traffic or commit crimes. I may even have said that SOME protesters were / are pro Saddam, but never a blanket statement.

And if you can't back up something like what you claim, you should probably shut the fuck up.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410520 - 03/26/03 06:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

They didn't all agree to be in this specific war.



do you not understand what the purpose of a military is? It isn't a place where useless hippies stand around deciding what and what not to fight in.

Quote:

Many of them signed up well before the start of this war.



see above. You don't join the military for the scenery. You join to defend the United States and preserve it's interests. This is the same for every military in the World, except france, they just give up.

Quote:

Many signed up so they could fight a more just war in Afghanistan and are now fighting an unjust war in Iraq.



my God you are wrong. The people in the military (a majority) have been in the military for YEARS. Many in my batallion have 10+ years of experience.

if you answer anything answer this. What is the purpose of the military?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410537 - 03/26/03 07:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

They didn't all agree to be in this specific war.



do you not understand what the purpose of a military is? It isn't a place where useless hippies stand around deciding what and what not to fight in.

Quote:

Many of them signed up well before the start of this war.



see above. You don't join the military for the scenery. You join to defend the United States and preserve it's interests. This is the same for every military in the World, except france, they just give up.



Look...I'm not trying to say the soldiers SHOULD have a choice in what wars they fight. All I'm saying is that supporting our troops and supporting the war aren't necessarily the same thing.

Quote:

Quote:

Many signed up so they could fight a more just war in Afghanistan and are now fighting an unjust war in Iraq.



my God you are wrong. The people in the military (a majority) have been in the military for YEARS. Many in my batallion have 10+ years of experience.



I'm wrong??? Are you saying no one signed up after 9/11? I wasn't trying to say that most of the military signed up then. I realize that probably the majority have been in the military a great deal longer.

Quote:

if you answer anything answer this. What is the purpose of the military?



To defend our borders.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410561 - 03/26/03 07:16 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

so you're saying that soldiers sign their marality away? You don't understand purpose of the military do you?

yes i am. yes i do, its purpose is to kill.

i'd go on but i don't want to fluster you when you sit in your comfortable chair bashing the people who make it possible for you to do so

who am i bashing? i made a point that your morality is relinquished when your join the military. if you are ordered to kill, you kill, you don't have a say in the matter, even if you think its wrong. this is why i could never join the military, my morality is sacred to me.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1410569 - 03/26/03 07:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

supporting our troops and supporting the war aren't necessarily the same thing.




I think Rail Gun stated it best when he said: Supporting the soldiers and not the war is similar to being for rapists but against rape (i know you're not for rape..comparison only)

Quote:

I'm wrong??? Are you saying no one signed up after 9/11?




people sign up everyday, i'm saying that those people in the military (a majority) have been there for years and chose to fight in any war that is presented to them. Afterall this is a voulenteer force.

Quote:

To defend our borders.



did we do that in WW2? We are defending our borders by nipping saddam at the bud.


Off topic, sorta
As a side note i do believe in the future we should defend our own borders (to much hassle with the pacifists)and let the world solve their own problems. I believe that the situation in Korea should be dealt with the countries that are in the area like Russia, S. Korea, China etc...I'll be a bit surprised if we as americans support going into N. Korea unless our troops are attacked.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410577 - 03/26/03 07:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah right. I am able to sit here right now because of what is going on in I raq.
Brilliant!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1410793 - 03/26/03 08:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah right. I am able to sit here right now because of what is going on in I raq.




What's brilliant is that i wa referring to the job that the soldiers have done in the present and in the past...it's sad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1410992 - 03/26/03 09:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The people that made it possible for me to "sit in this chair" are long dead for the most part.Although Soldiers throughout the years have ensured a certain level of safety in our country.

It is true that a standing army is important to a nations security and that people need to have respect for the soldiers in that army. But what is going on in Iraq with these particular soldiers has nothing to do with our safety.

BTW, I think he was reffering to the soldiers who volunteered to fight this war. Not to soldiers in general.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/26/03 09:53 AM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1411029 - 03/26/03 10:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It is true that a standing army is important to a nations security and that people need to have respect for the soldiers in that army. But what is going on in Iraq with these particular soldiers has nothing to do with our safety.



George Washington would disagree with you since a standing army was the definition of tyranny at his time.

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." -George Washington


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1411092 - 03/26/03 10:30 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think he was reffering to the soldiers who volunteered to fight this war



you can't just volunteer for one war. That's not how it works.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1411123 - 03/26/03 10:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

you can't just volunteer for one war. That's not how it works.





I understand that. But there were people who joined with this situation in mind.

There have been reports on the news of people quitting thier jobs and signing up and being shipped over there. I don't know how many, but there has been some.



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1411132 - 03/26/03 10:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

George Washington would disagree with you since a standing army was the definition of tyranny at his time.

"Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." -George Washington





At his time? Well these are not his times now are they. Not trying to be a smartass, but in this world we definitely need a standing army.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1412241 - 03/26/03 06:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't even see where the quote mentions "standing army".


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1413103 - 03/27/03 04:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I don't even see where the quote mentions "standing army".



How about these quotes from other founders...

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789).

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Draft Amendment, Virginia Delegation to the Constitutional Convention on June 16, 1788.

"Whenever a people are so enervated by luxury as to intrust the defence of their country to a regular, standing army, composed of mercenaries, the power of that country will remain under the direction and influence of the most wealthy citizens." Signed "A Farmer," in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Letter XIV, January 29, 1791.

" but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens... who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.'' Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers # 29.

"... I most cordially agree, with the honorable member last up, that a standing army is one of the greatest mischiefs that can possibly happen ... The most effectual way to guard against a standing army, is to render it unnecessary. The most effectual way to render it unnecessary, is to give the general government full power to call forth the militia, and exert the whole natural strength of the Union, when necessary. Thus you will furnish the people with sure and certain protection, without recurring to this evil; and the certainty of this protection from the whole will be a strong inducement to individual exertion." James Madison, in an immediate, agreeable response to George Mason during the Constitutional Convention debates, June 16, 1788.

"...17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that the militia shall not be subject to martial law, except in time of war, rebellion, or insurrection; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be kept up, except in eases of necessity; and that at all times, the military should be under strict subordination to the civil power; that in time of peace no soldier ought to be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, and in time of war, only by the civil magistrate, in such manner as the law directs." Letter on Rights from the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations as contained in the Journal of the Senate, June 9, 1790.

"I object to the power of Congress over the militia and to keep a standing army ... The last resource of a free people is taken away; for Congress are to have the command of the Militia ... Congress may give us a select militia which will, in fact, be a standing army--or Congress, afraid of a general militia, may say there shall be no militia at all. When a select militia is formed; the people in general may be disarmed." John Smilie in the Pennsylvania convention. The Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution, Vol. 2, Pages 508-509 (December 6, 1787).


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #1413374 - 03/27/03 07:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

["Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. "





That is why we must fight anti-gun legislation to the death!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1413414 - 03/27/03 07:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm with you on that.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: sirreal]
    #1413591 - 03/27/03 08:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

["Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. "





That is why we must fight anti-gun legislation to the death!



Seems most Iraqi civilians own guns, so if that allows them to overthrow their government, why aren't they doing so?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Let's not support our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #1413800 - 03/27/03 09:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That is a good point.

I would say that the Iraqi people were raised with different Ideals than we Americans were. Although it is changing fast, We Americans were born and raised free. Before you can strip freedom from a people, you must disarm them.

That is why there has been such a push to take away guns along with our rights.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/27/03 09:59 AM)


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