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maug
Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 1,703
Loc: inside you
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Should psychologists be required to try various hallucinogens?
#14058024 - 03/03/11 01:02 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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I'd like to apologize in advance for mixing up doctors, shrinks, psychologists, and psychiatrists. If I was one, I wouldn't do this.
Currently, I think that most shrinks and psychologists simply have not seen the football since kickoff when it comes to things like understanding hallucinations, behavior disorders, and other ways that people can be mentally one-off from everyone else. The only thing that's static about these things is the dogma.
Personal case example: When I was 17, I tried to get high on cough medicine. I had tried cannabis, loved it, and heard cough medicine also does the job. Later I called poison control to find out what I had taken, and was told I had OD'd on acetaminophen (Tylenol). I had to go to the ER. I wasn't 18 yet, so I had to give a story to my parents. My logic was: drugs = no rights, rehab, and being treated like street trash... but depression/suicide = my problem and no one else's. It didn't work one bit. The first shrink I saw thought I was insane. He only talked to my mom, even though I was in the room with him for almost an hour. But he said he wanted me on meds before he saw me again (Seroquil, a tranquilizer, hallucinogen deliriant. Experience is the same as Benadryl, but it's less toxic and much more powerful). He actually wanted to diagnose me as paranoia schizophrenia too. It's funny, because he gave me a medication that causes delirium hallucinations - the dream-like type where most people can't tell reality from the hallucination. The meds he gave me made read books that weren't there for 10 minutes at a time, and I'd talk gibberish like "We can't walk to go paint today without our 12." Sometimes I wouldn't know if I was really talking, or just hearing things. In the defense of other psychologists, this guy was fresh out of college.
A funny thing happened after I had taken them for a while. I could distinguish the hallucinations from reality. I could experience them at the same time with the drug. I could experience them without the drug, especially before sleeping. I could listen to people talk about opiates and know where their stories were coming from. Sometimes I can even tell by a persons eyes or speech if they are into similar substances, or even in a similar state of mind.
I've personally observed an incredible lack of understanding with hallucinogens and hallucinations. You have doctors that don't know the basics of MAO, or what a drug synergy is. You have doctors that try to diagnose someone as schizophrenic or schizo-effective while they are tripping on a psychedelics (I can imagine a mom bringing in a kid to the ER and saying "You've gotta make my baby better again!"). You got doctors who don't know what the drugs they prescribe do to people (like in my example). Doctors who don't know a person can feel depressed, suicidal, or even have hallucinations, and not only be 100% healthy - but that much stronger than everyone else. Doctors with zero knowledge of yoga, hypnotic states, lucid dreaming, etc. And the very most important thing: there is no shared experience with the patient. This isn't all doctors, but it seems like it's what a standard psych/medicine degree gets you.
So if you read all that, thanks. I got 3 questions. 1: What drugs or practices would be "required viewing" to start them off on being a connoisseur of experiencing altered states? 2: What would a serious college course on getting loaded look like? 3:
-------------------- I think nighttime is dark so you can imagine your fears with less distraction. -Calvin and Hobbes
Edited by maug (03/03/11 07:40 PM)
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withoutawire
hi
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058061 - 03/03/11 01:17 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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No one for any reason should be "required" to take psychedelics. They are something you decide to do for yourself, and only you should have that power.
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EdgeChaos
Still a stranger
Registered: 08/04/06
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: withoutawire]
#14058088 - 03/03/11 01:25 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
withoutawire said: No one for any reason should be "required" to take psychedelics. They are something you decide to do for yourself, and only you should have that power.
I agree that no one should be forced to take them, at least until we understand them better. Making psychedelics available to psychologists, that want to experiment on themselves, would be nice.
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Belac
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: withoutawire]
#14058144 - 03/03/11 01:47 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
withoutawire said: No one for any reason should be "required" to take psychedelics. They are something you decide to do for yourself, and only you should have that power.
What he said. Although doctors/psychologists/therapists who have had drug experience and understand the effects and after effects will be able to diagnose and treat drug psychosis/issues much better. While you can't force people to take drugs, its definitely beneficial for these career choices.
It seems many of us drug users are infatuated with the brain and the relationship between psycho-actives so that many of become interested in these professions. With the rise in use of the internet I think that there will be more open minded doctors that misdiagnose and prescribe less pharms for people who don't need them.
I know when I was very little, like 5 or 6 years old, my mother had me sent me to a therapist because she thought something was wrong with me. He ended up wanting to prescribe me Ritalin and the rest of my vehemently opposed this. 12 years later I don't have any mental disorder or anything like that.
Pharmaceuticals have gotten out of hand.
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058147 - 03/03/11 01:48 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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I think you should amputate your own leg and then become a surgeon.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
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Belac
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: German Kahuna]
#14058157 - 03/03/11 01:51 AM (13 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
German Kahuna said:
I think you should amputate your own leg and then become a surgeon.
lol
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maug
Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 1,703
Loc: inside you
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: German Kahuna]
#14058205 - 03/03/11 02:12 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
German Kahuna said:
I think you should amputate your own leg and then become a surgeon.
If we're done with non sequiturs here, there were some specific questions you can feel free to answer. And you don't need to operate on yourself to be a surgeon, but then that has little to do with the mind/experience. However, you wouldn't trust that someone has a real understanding of France if the closest they ever got was Germany. So what if they read a book? You want someone who's lived there, can tell you what every beach and coffee shop is like, married a local, and read the literature.
I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. This isn't a "get college credit for being an air-head" scam either. I'm talking about the education of the next crop of doctors. The people who have this training become specialists. That's how a business works. These specialists would become recognized by others in similar fields, and the other doctors would know to refer patients with specific symptoms/diagnosis to these specialists.
And in question 1, I said what drugs or practices. Practices could be stuff like hypnotic states. It's not about drugs, it's about the experience and lessons that they teach. For question 1, what should be the required experiences for a well rounded education for these specialists.
Edited by maug (03/03/11 02:20 AM)
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058221 - 03/03/11 02:24 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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You are talking about doctors. They know a good bit about biochemistry and the neuronal and psychotropic effects of certain substances on your organism without having to be drugged up first.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
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Belac
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058224 - 03/03/11 02:25 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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You have a valid point, maug. But "required" is the only thing to be disagreed with.
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Belac
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: German Kahuna]
#14058230 - 03/03/11 02:26 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
German Kahuna said: You are talking about doctors. They know a good bit about biochemistry and the neuronal and psychotropic effects of certain substances on your organism without having to be drugged up first.
But if they've never experienced said drugs, they won't fully understand the potential they have to effect the brain and it's though processes.
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maug
Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 1,703
Loc: inside you
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: German Kahuna]
#14058323 - 03/03/11 03:09 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
German Kahuna said: You are talking about doctors. They know a good bit about biochemistry and the neuronal and psychotropic effects of certain substances on your organism without having to be drugged up first.
I have no doubt that they are excellent chemists. I have no doubt that there are millions of people out there smarter and more specialized in this field than me - but in my opinion a few of those folks still need a solid kick in the pants so they don't reproduce. Being a chemist doesn't make you a healer. It's a major part, but not the only part. I don't really want to turn this into a thread on the war on drugs, but I think that's where a lot of the bull shit stems from. Ex:
Enough rhetoric please. I really am thankful for all of your responses, but I'd like to turn some of the attention to the questions. That's what I'm curious about hearing from you guys.
-------------------- I think nighttime is dark so you can imagine your fears with less distraction. -Calvin and Hobbes
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid
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Posts: 15,798
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058327 - 03/03/11 03:11 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Being a chemist doesn't make you a healer.
I knew it was really going this way. I knew it. This thread is just another one of those "if everyone just took psychedelics the world would be so awesome and we'd all understand each other and the Universe and we'd be making love not war" type of threads that are typical for the PE forum.
Edited for reasons of restraining myself from flaming.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
Edited by German Kahuna (03/03/11 03:15 AM)
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drr
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 8,444
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058330 - 03/03/11 03:14 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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They don't even call them psychotomimetics anymore. Thats an outdated 50s term from a time doctors were experimenting with lobotomies to 'treat' psychosis, whatever their unclear understanding was of that was at the time.
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maug
Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 1,703
Loc: inside you
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: German Kahuna]
#14058385 - 03/03/11 04:11 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
German Kahuna said:
Quote:
Being a chemist doesn't make you a healer.
I knew it was really going this way. I knew it. This thread is just another one of those "if everyone just took psychedelics the world would be so awesome and we'd all understand each other and the Universe and we'd be making love not war" type of threads that are typical for the PE forum.
Edited for reasons of restraining myself from flaming.
I'm not looking for that. You can replace "healer" with knowledgeable or helpful. Here is an example post of what I was looking for. I should have done this before, but I got too into these little side conversations.
Just laundry list it. 1: Seqoruil, cannabis, chewing salvia, dmt, mdma (you need a good hangover in the mix), high dose of caffeine, high dose of ginseng, hypnotic states with black metal, and a dream diary. If possible, what mental condition experiences and drug experiences do these relate to? I'm looking for safe drugs and practices that don't overlap in terms of experience. 2: pre-requisits for the course, maybe a book or article, name drop people who had these well-rounded experiences like Carl Jung, how many people in a class, what would the instructor need to know, when and where might this kind of thing happen first. Surprise me. 3: yes or no
If that's too much to ask, then I'm sorry. I know it's a tall order. I just thought it would be interesting to read if people participated.
-------------------- I think nighttime is dark so you can imagine your fears with less distraction. -Calvin and Hobbes
Edited by maug (03/03/11 04:28 AM)
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phxBoomer
Psychedelic Scientist
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058566 - 03/03/11 06:42 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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for someone trying to understamd psychosis or insanity first hand, shrooms amd lsd offer something similar. Also for anyone intetsted in simply exploring the mind or learning what the mind is capable of doing with the help of chemicals, highly recomend psychs. Lsd is responsible for many of the advances in psychology/psychiatry and technology.
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LanLord
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: withoutawire]
#14058650 - 03/03/11 07:44 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
withoutawire said: No one for any reason should be "required" to take psychedelics. They are something you decide to do for yourself, and only you should have that power.
I agree with this statement. Requiring a shrink to take psychedelics so they know what hallucinations are like would be like requiring MDs to have rabies so they know what it feels like.
Just not a good idea.
Now, with that said, a good shrink should want to experience the psychedelics just to get a view of the power of those substances.
-------------------- Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
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I AM SWIM
doin' thangs
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14058840 - 03/03/11 09:01 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
maug said:
Quote:
German Kahuna said: You are talking about doctors. They know a good bit about biochemistry and the neuronal and psychotropic effects of certain substances on your organism without having to be drugged up first.
I have no doubt that they are excellent chemists. I have no doubt that there are millions of people out there smarter and more specialized in this field than me - but in my opinion a few of those folks still need a solid kick in the pants so they don't reproduce. Being a chemist doesn't make you a healer. It's a major part, but not the only part. I don't really want to turn this into a thread on the war on drugs, but I think that's where a lot of the bull shit stems from. Ex:
Enough rhetoric please. I really am thankful for all of your responses, but I'd like to turn some of the attention to the questions. That's what I'm curious about hearing from you guys.
great video
and @ around 1:15
"whose naming these dr00gz? It's like someone is getting high at a star trek convention"
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maug
Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 1,703
Loc: inside you
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: phxBoomer]
#14059440 - 03/03/11 11:26 AM (13 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
phxBoomer said: for someone trying to understamd psychosis or insanity first hand, shrooms amd lsd offer something similar. Also for anyone intetsted in simply exploring the mind or learning what the mind is capable of doing with the help of chemicals, highly recomend psychs. Lsd is responsible for many of the advances in psychology/psychiatry and technology.
thanks ^_^
-------------------- I think nighttime is dark so you can imagine your fears with less distraction. -Calvin and Hobbes
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Jordainio
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: maug]
#14069613 - 03/05/11 04:40 AM (13 years, 26 days ago) |
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That's crazy .. I'd like to find out about that... My opinion is that doctors will never change because of the FDA bullshit s et in place, along with the Diagnosic Staitisical manual or what ever it is called. The doctors would be high for free, and then tell me I'm clinically depressed and give me some fucked up big pharmacy chemicals instead of some organic flesh of the gods, ganja, or hell even some good tea would help. Until federal laws change (or the middle class as a whole accepts drug use!!!!), these kinds of "un tested" substances will never be accepted. They, of course, have been tested by time, some like cannabis have been tested over millennia. So I'm ranting. Point is, fuck propaganda we have to do dis on our own. Whatchu think!
-------------------- Also, if anyone is selling cymbals or drum equipment, email me right now! <span class="spoiler" onmouseover="this.className='nospoiler'" onmouseout="this.className='spoiler'">Distant and unimagined realms lie hidden all around us. Not only do we deny things that we CAN see, but many many more that we do not. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively hahahaha, P4N3D!!!!!1!
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pyl91
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Re: Should doctors be required to try various psychotomimetics? [Re: Jordainio]
#14070129 - 03/05/11 09:55 AM (13 years, 26 days ago) |
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Psychologists certainly shouldn't be required to take anything, but if they did have experience with certain drugs, they would probably be able to help some of their patients better.
Take a social worker for example. Someone who has been in an abusive relationship, broke, and addicted to opiates and who has gotten out of that situation and improved their life will be able to relate to someone else in a similar situation a lot better than someone who hasn't been through that. That isn't to say that someone without that experience won't be able to help, they just might not be able to help in the same ways or to the same extent as someone who has.
The reason why a surgeon shouldn't have to perform surgery on him or herself first is because human anatomy can be studied objectively. Consciousness, on the other hand, is entirely subjective, and this is where the benefits of having a bit of experience with hallucinogens could help.
I think that there is some confusion here as to how some people are taking this. There are two aspects: one is being able to help people who have used or are under the influence of hallucinogens, and the other is to help people with a broader range of mental "disorders."
The first matter is mostly hindered by ignorance. If more people (not just doctors) were well educated on what hallucinogens do and what the side effects are, treatment and care would be much better (those who have had difficult experience may just need someone to talk to; they aren't crazy).
The second matter relates more to my example of the social worker. It certainly shouldn't be a prerequisite to being a psychologist though. They do a lot more than help people with serious psychological differences (such as paranoid schizophrenia). You don't need to take psychedelics in order to help someone find out why they are depressed and what they can do to improve themselves, or to help someone who is just under a lot of stress.
Also, I just realized that I used "psychologist" throughout this post, but I think that the proper term is really "psychiatrist" in the context that I'm using it in.
Sad to see how the replies in this thread seem to be all over the place.
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