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Offlinedurantz
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The virtual spirituality
    #14057508 - 03/02/11 10:42 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

first things first.... keep an open mind about this topic. This is not something I'm advocating but it is a possibility I see that is logically possible.

Many many people believe in mind body dualism. Most of these people don't actually know of the philosophical debate around this idea but they just seem to have an innate conception of it. Most people you ask will talk about themselves as having a mind or a soul that is the essence of themselves. This mind/soul is separate from the body and is completely immaterial.

For such people it is easier for them to believe that there is no physical world than it is to believe they have no soul/mind. and it appears that the vast majority of people accept dualism in some form or other.

This method of thinking has given rise to many films and books that portray our world as simply an illusion or virtual reality.

I repeat again, for most people it is easier to discount a physical world than it is to discount that they have a soul/mind.

Now this got me thinking...

what if the case was in reverse? What if the physical world did exist 100% as a material, objective (separate from thought) reality. And the virtual world was actually the spirituality. This gives rise to my theory of virtual spirituality.

It seems possible that we have convinced ourselves that a spiritual world exists on some level. The most basic level is that 'I' "ego" is seperate from body. The most complex level is where we believe that the entire universe is simply a matter of thought/spirit; that nothing exists outside of the mind.

So rather than the spiritual reality existing IT IS THE ILLUSION! So the physical world is not the illusion but the actual objective reality.

We may have fooled ourselves into believing that all reality is subjective because this confirms our belief in a spiritual world and that somehow the "ego" exists within it's own right. 

So point is: Virtual spirituality, NOT virtual reality

I've probably not explained this very well but that's cos I've only been thinking about it today. So please make as many comments and criticisms as you like.

Thanks

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14057765 - 03/02/11 11:45 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Sounds pretty good to me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14058373 - 03/03/11 03:52 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Well, the mind is by definition immaterial, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's separate from the physical world (i.e. neutral monism).  I agree with you that the physical world seems to be objective reality but we can't simultaneously throw the mental states and mind baby out with the spiritual bathwater.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14058515 - 03/03/11 06:04 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

I repeat again, for most people it is easier to discount a physical world than it is to discount that they have a soul/mind.




I wouldnt really agree with this statement. I think the most commonly held view is that everything is part of the physical world and consciousness / mind / soul are products of the material world. But without doing an in depth survey we cant really know :smile:

Quote:

What if the physical world did exist 100% as a material, objective (separate from thought) reality. And the virtual world was actually the spirituality.




This sounds like materialism?

From my own point of view I definitely see the physical world as being a subjective illusion, based on the fact that I only have my subjective pereception of it! I do think that an objective world exists but can we ever truly know its nature? No idea :smile:

Spiritual/Physical could just be terms we are using to describe different aspects of a mostly unknowable objective reality?


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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #14058809 - 03/03/11 08:51 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

My most recent mushroom trip sort of danced around this theme.
But I propose that nothing is an illusion. What you perceive is real.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: R2-D2]
    #14064395 - 03/04/11 01:53 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

But I propose that nothing is an illusion. What you perceive is real.




Depends what you mean by illusion and real. A bat perceives the world in a completely different way to us but we both base our perceptions on the same "real" world. So by illusion I just mean representation of objective reality but not the actual objective reality.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #14064432 - 03/04/11 02:12 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So by illusion I just mean representation of objective reality but not the actual objective reality.


So all perceptions are illusions, IYO? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14064567 - 03/04/11 03:23 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Could well be... I'm learning about perception at the moment and it is simply fascinating! The amount of things we 'see' and 'dont see' is staggering.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14064658 - 03/04/11 04:15 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

So all perceptions are illusions, IYO? :undecided:




I think all perceptions give us a representation of reality conjured up by our visual cortex and other areas of the brain. I dont think our pereceptions can ever give us a complete representation of objective reality due to the intrinsic limitation of our biological apparatus. i.e The human eye can only respond to a fairly small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Maybe illusion is not the best word to describe this, maybe saying our perceptions give us an approximation of reality gets closer to the truth?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: GazzBut]
    #14064673 - 03/04/11 04:23 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Maybe illusion is not the best word to describe this, maybe saying our perceptions give us an approximation of reality gets closer to the truth?


I would say that is more accurate, yes. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14065214 - 03/04/11 09:03 AM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Although there are many occasions where we do simply see illusions. Any google search for optical illusions will show you this.

I will tell you this; the only things we actually see accurately are those which form an image directly on our fovea. The fovea is only about 1.5 mm in diameter so anything outside of your direct gaze will not be perceived with accuracy and will simply be 'filled' in by the brain.

So we really do live our lives with tunnel vision.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14066069 - 03/04/11 12:25 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Although there are many occasions where we do simply see illusions. Any google search for optical illusions will show you this.


Those are illusions because they appear to be something they're not, not because they give us an incomplete representation of reality.


Quote:

durantz said:
I will tell you this; the only things we actually see accurately are those which form an image directly on our fovea. The fovea is only about 1.5 mm in diameter so anything outside of your direct gaze will not be perceived with accuracy and will simply be 'filled' in by the brain.


It's not that it's not perceived accurately, it's that anything outside of your direct gaze is not being focused on by your lens; peripheral vision it's not merely "filled in" by the brain, it's actually produced by the interpretation of incoming light signals, just like the images that lie in your direct gaze.


Quote:

durantz said:
So we really do live our lives with tunnel vision.


So? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14067155 - 03/04/11 04:20 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

what the fuck is an objective reality?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: R2-D2]
    #14067245 - 03/04/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

It's this magical place, with sunshine and lollipops! :datass::sunny:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14067342 - 03/04/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Those are illusions because they appear to be something they're not, not because they give us an incomplete representation of reality.




Sorry I'm confused by this. Could you please clarify.

Quote:

It's not that it's not perceived accurately, it's that anything outside of your direct gaze is not being focused on by your lens; peripheral vision it's not merely "filled in" by the brain, it's actually produced by the interpretation of incoming light signals, just like the images that lie in your direct gaze.





Actually dude there are times when your peripheral vision perceives things very inaccurately. Do a google search for "Dramatically different percepts between foveal and peripheral vision" should be the first result.

I think you may be slightly confused about your definition of perception. Perception is not reality. It is simply the brains interpretation of reality. And to be honest we are far from fully understanding perception so it is likely that the definition will change in the future.

Quote:

what the fuck is an objective reality?




This would be the world that exists outside of human perception.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14067436 - 03/04/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Those are illusions because they appear to be something they're not, not because they give us an incomplete representation of reality.




Sorry I'm confused by this. Could you please clarify.


For example, a mirage can appear to be a pond, but in reality, it's just an optical illusion; you were saying earlier that perceptions are illusions because they give us an incomplete representation of reality, and I'm just saying that an incomplete representation of reality is not necessarily illusory.


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

It's not that it's not perceived accurately, it's that anything outside of your direct gaze is not being focused on by your lens; peripheral vision it's not merely "filled in" by the brain, it's actually produced by the interpretation of incoming light signals, just like the images that lie in your direct gaze.





Actually dude there are times when your peripheral vision perceives things very inaccurately. Do a google search for "Dramatically different percepts between foveal and peripheral vision" should be the first result.


Yeah, one main difference between the two is that shapes are not easily recognizable in one's peripheral vision; colors, however, are fairly easily recognizable in one's peripheral vision. Being unable to perceive shapes in your peripheral vision does not mean you are perceiving inaccurately, it just means that you weren't built to have clear peripheral vision; what is being perceived in your peripheral vision is the light that enters the eye, just like with foveal vision, except it's not as focused as the light that enters your foveal vision.

It may be inaccurate in the sense that it's not a clear picture, but it's definitely not inaccurate in the sense that contains false information.


Quote:

durantz said:
I think you may be slightly confused about your definition of perception. Perception is not reality. It is simply the brains interpretation of reality. And to be honest we are far from fully understanding perception so it is likely that the definition will change in the future.


Perception is part of reality, and is no more or less real than anything else.


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

what the fuck is an objective reality?




This would be the world that exists outside of human perception.


You mean the world that has been postulated to exist outside of human perception?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid] * 2
    #14067473 - 03/04/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You mean the world that has been postulated to exist outside of human perception?






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Offlinedurantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14067542 - 03/04/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

colors, however, are fairly easily recognizable in one's peripheral vision




Sorry man I don't mean to attack you but you're quite wrong in your understanding of perception.

First thing colour becomes harder to detect the further you move into the periphery until you actually cannot see colour at all. This is explained by the difference in your light receptors (rods VS cones).

The rods only process white light (no colour) where the cones process the colours.

The cones are actually concentrated towards the centre of the eye with the most cones being located on the fovea. The further from the centre of the retina the less cones you will get. So images in your periphery are hitting areas of the retina with very few cone receptors. So in actual fact dude it is very hard to see colours accurately in the periphery. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it is incorrect. a very simple experiment to show this is to walk up to your friend and hold different colours of paper at varying degrees in their periphery and ask them to name the colour. At the extreme of their periphery they will not be able to tell you the colour.

Quote:

but in reality, it's just an optical illusion



Sorry I read this as an oxymoron. I'm still not understanding your point.

Quote:

Perception is part of reality, and is no more or less real than anything else.




Yeah you're still confusing me here... perception is our way of interpreting the world through our senses.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: durantz]
    #14068113 - 03/04/11 08:13 PM (13 years, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Poid said:
You mean the world that has been postulated to exist outside of human perception?







:grin:



Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

colors, however, are fairly easily recognizable in one's peripheral vision




Sorry man I don't mean to attack you but you're quite wrong in your understanding of perception.


Meh, this is a debate, not a flame war; I don't take things personally in debates, because debates are about the ideas discussed, and not about the people discussing.


Quote:

durantz said:
First thing colour becomes harder to detect the further you move into the periphery until you actually cannot see colour at all.


I never said anything that contradicted this, I just said that color is fairly easy to recognize in certain portions of one's peripheral vision.


Quote:

durantz said:
This is explained by the difference in your light receptors (rods VS cones).

The rods only process white light (no colour) where the cones process the colours.

The cones are actually concentrated towards the centre of the eye with the most cones being located on the fovea. The further from the centre of the retina the less cones you will get. So images in your periphery are hitting areas of the retina with very few cone receptors. So in actual fact dude it is very hard to see colours accurately in the periphery. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it is incorrect. a very simple experiment to show this is to walk up to your friend and hold different colours of paper at varying degrees in their periphery and ask them to name the colour.


I did something just like this in 7th grade: everyone had a partner, & one person would hang a colored piece of paper with shapes drawn on it at varying degrees in their periphery and ask them what they see. The results showed that shapes were virtually impossible to distinguish at a certain point in the periphery, whereas colors were fairly easy to recognize. The results also showed that, like you're saying, at a certain point in the periphery, neither shapes nor colors are easy to recognize.


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

but in reality, it's just an optical illusion



Sorry I read this as an oxymoron. I'm still not understanding your point.


I'm not sure exactly what you're having trouble understanding; my point was that perceptions are not illusions, but you already agreed that 'illusion' was the wrong term for what you were actually trying to express, so I don't see this point is still under discussion. :shrug:


Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Perception is part of reality, and is no more or less real than anything else.




Yeah you're still confusing me here... perception is our way of interpreting the world through our senses.


Well our senses are perceptions; I don't see what's so confusing about the fact that perceptions are real, and not illusory. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: The virtual spirituality [Re: Poid]
    #14068133 - 03/04/11 08:18 PM (13 years, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Well our senses are perceptions; I don't see what's so confusing about the fact that perceptions are real, and not illusory.




Ah this is where your incorrect understanding is stemming from.

Senses ARE NOT perceptions.

Senses are your windows to the world. Once the incoming sense data enters the neural pathways many, many things happen before they are finally perceived.

your perception is the translation of what your senses are detecting.

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