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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: bioBot]
    #14046996 - 03/01/11 05:20 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

bioBot said:
It will not (usually?) pass through healthy cellular
membranes, only the malignant ones to increase their acidity and
allow the immune system to erradicate them.




What is your basis for making this statement?  What evidence of these claims is there?

Additionally, you claim this is an "alkaline therapy" that causes an increased acidity.  Seems a bit of a contradiction, no?

Quote:


Cesium Chloride Protocol at CancerTutor





Seems like a bunch of nonsense to me.  A quick look at that site shows outrageous claims (unsourced, of course) of medical conspiracies to suppress "cancer cures" and evil, unnamed, FDA officials somehow preventing research from being published :confused: 

Of course, they also allege media suppression too, though I'm unsure what that matters unless their trying to market direct to consumers... oh, wait...



They throw in some pretty insane quotes from anti-vaccine physicians that claim knowledge of treatments providing 50% "cure" rates in "hopeless" comatose cancer patients, but one thing remarkably absent amidst all this craziness is any clear evidence of their claims.

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on the academic/medical/media conspiracy to suppress them, when you actually look at their own site, they don't bother to present any of this fancy evidence that the "man" is trying to keep secret.  Funny that for all their indignation at the great injustice being perpetuated against them, they apparently don't bother to present any evidence in the one outlet they have to do so.

OP:  this has all the marking of nonsense, why would you believe what these guys are saying?  In general or with regards to these particular claims?

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: bioBot]
    #14048476 - 03/01/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Please explain how altering the pH in cancer tissues will enable the body to target the tissue.  The reason cancer is not attacked by your body is that its cells are made from your own cells and your body doesn't recognize them as a threat.  Is the pH in cancer cells even different from physiological pH?  Will those proposed salts even alter pH in a targeted way?  All of this seems beyond dubious...

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OfflinebioBot

Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 293
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14051348 - 03/01/11 09:39 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

@johnm214 - Contradiction, yes, 'decrease' is the word.  You seem very curious about
how these proposed alkaline therapies could work, repeatedly combating the theory with
accusation.  If you would please explain how you think reducing the local acidity of a
tumor would not allow the immune system an advantage over it, I'm certainly open to
your reasoning.  The method you have chosen is to repeatedly discredit the entire thing
without exacting reasons . I have not made any claims; my posts in the matter are only
to spread awareness that the claims exist.  The relevance of my previous question should
now be apparent... if you have no evidence, make no argument.

I'm not arguing that it would work, I'm hoping for an informed and
knowledgable person to use scientific reasoning on the premise of using
alkalinity in favor of defeating cancer as it has been described.

Something tells me it seems like a theory based in logic.

@ChuangTzu - The idea is that cancerous cells will thrive in an acidic
environment due to the inhibition of immune response because of the lowered
pH value.  When a tumor forms it is then pooling acidity in a localized
area, creating a barrier to the normal immune system function of removing
unwanted or malformed cells.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: bioBot]
    #14051852 - 03/01/11 10:55 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

bioBot said:
If you would please explain how you think reducing the local acidity of a
tumor would not allow the immune system an advantage over it, I'm certainly open to
your reasoning.  The method you have chosen is to repeatedly discredit the entire thing
without exacting reasons .




This is a fallacious demand.  I do not have a burden to establish a given contrary position to yours.  It is your burden to establish those things which you've alleged.  (and that of teh people running the website you mention)




Quote:

I have not made any claims; my posts in the matter are only
to spread awareness that the claims exist.  The relevance of my previous question should
now be apparent... if you have no evidence, make no argument.





You confuse doubt and demands for logical thinking, positive evidence, with a substantive argument.  I've meerly inquired as to the justification for these claims, and criticized the nonsense going on in that website- which spends a bunch of time whining about alleged suppression of their stunning, revolutionary, evidence, but never gets around to showing us any of it.  That their proponents include vaccination opponents is pretty telling (though even giving them the benefit of the doubt, they provide no evidence).  Other than a few individual niche situations or in regards to specific products, those who ascribe to anti-vaccination stances tend to be clowns without evidence of their positions.


Quote:



I'm not arguing that it would work, I'm hoping for an informed and
knowledgable person to use scientific reasoning on the premise of using
alkalinity in favor of defeating cancer as it has been described.





Personally, I don't have any opinion on the matter except to doubt the claims made. They are outrageous, as mentioned earlier, and that they have no proof that I've seen (and certainly don't prominently display it) makes them indistinguishable from garden variety hucksters- I would be shocked if that weren't the case.

Quote:

Something tells me it seems like a theory based in logic.





What logic?  I've never heard anything about pH and cancer treatments.  Certainly doesn't seem like "common knowledge" at least.  If there's any particular reason to give them credit, then I'm not aware of it.  Note that patents litterally just mean they've been the first ones to file a patentable claim- they represent legal property not scientific fact/evidence.


Quote:

@ChuangTzu - The idea is that cancerous cells will thrive in an acidic
environment due to the inhibition of immune response because of the lowered
pH value.  When a tumor forms it is then pooling acidity in a localized
area, creating a barrier to the normal immune system function of removing
unwanted or malformed cells.





I think we all get that.  The question is what grounds there are to believe any of that is true, or that the treatment is particularly useful, by whatever mechanism.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: bioBot]
    #14053887 - 03/02/11 10:49 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

bioBot said:
@ChuangTzu - The idea is that cancerous cells will thrive in an acidic
environment due to the inhibition of immune response because of the lowered
pH value.  When a tumor forms it is then pooling acidity in a localized
area, creating a barrier to the normal immune system function of removing
unwanted or malformed cells.




That's what doesn't make sense.  What evidence do you have that cancer cells thrive in an acidic environment or that lowered pH inhibits immune response or that a raised pH would increase immune response against cancer cells?  Cancer cells are cells of your own body, therefore your immune system doesn't recognize them as a problem.  How is changing the pH going to change any of that?

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14054108 - 03/02/11 11:33 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Well, there is a connection, but it's not that straightforward. Acidity within the (direct vicinity of) tumor reduces effectiveness of certain forms of chemotherapy (see e.g. here: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~raghunan/Reprints/Raghunand_A12.pdf). If there is a similar relation with the human immune system (as opposed to chemotherapy), I don't know.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: koraks]
    #14054375 - 03/02/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

It'd be a stretch to consider that related...

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14056262 - 03/02/11 06:30 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It'd be a stretch to consider that related...





Yeah, though it does contain a discussion in the introduction on point to some of the claims made.

For one, the article mentions several mechanisms which independantly conclude tumors of the studied types generally have an alkaline intracellular environment.  This is in contrast to the original poster's claims which allege that the cells are acidic relative to normal cells.

The study discusses inhibition of chemotherapeutic agents' efficacy, however; rather than any immune system response.  The agents which are affected by these pH changes are all weakly-basic organic amines which immediately suggests the activity, solubility, of the chemotherapeutic agent is what's being effected (they also discuss sequestration in acidic microenvironments within the cell). 

I just skimmed it but it doesn't seem to offer any support for the OP, besides confirming the existance of pH variations in tumors, though in the wrong direction the OP claims (basic intracellular, acidic extracellular).  Dumping simple metal salts into the body honestly seems like a pretyt blunt and silly way to affect an intracellular pH change in tumors, but who knows.

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OfflinebioBot

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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14056735 - 03/02/11 08:00 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Dr. Jim Howenstine on Cesium Chloride

He goes into how malignant cells become more acidic
from a buildup of lactic acid due to a lack of oxygen,
giving explanations on how normal cells tranform into
cancer and the means by which alkalinity can work to
solve this problem.

:goinsane:

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Medical Discoveries on Curing Cancer [Re: bioBot]
    #14056840 - 03/02/11 08:19 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

bioBot said:
Dr. Jim Howenstine on Cesium Chloride

He goes into how malignant cells become more acidic
from a buildup of lactic acid due to a lack of oxygen,
giving explanations on how normal cells tranform into
cancer and the means by which alkalinity can work to
solve this problem.

:goinsane:




So what prevents your body from taking out these malignant cells early on before they form whatever structures prevent oxygen from penetrating the tumor?  (hint: it has nothing to do with acidity)

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