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Anonymous

why this war is a bad idea
    #1405453 - 03/24/03 09:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

here's why i don't support the war:

1. It will not make america safer from terrorism. rather, it diverts our attention from fighting terrorism, inflames anti-american sentiment worldwide, and erodes cooperation with our allies. all of these make it more difficult to counter the threat of terrorism.

2. It undermines our relationships with many other countries, including some long standing allies.

3. It will result in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of american soldiers, iraqi civilians, and iraqi soldiers.

4. It will costs billions of dollars at a time when our economy already isn't doing so hot.

5. A peaceful solution to the situation could have been possible.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405468 - 03/24/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Bearing in mind that the armies of planners, advisers and policy makers etc in government would probabaly have arrived at similar conclusions why do you think they persist?

Ulterior motive or just plain stupid?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: GazzBut]
    #1405478 - 03/24/03 10:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ulterior motives.


And a little stupidity. :grin:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (03/24/03 10:07 AM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405500 - 03/24/03 10:14 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

5. A peaceful solution to the situation could have been possible.




I can see where you are coming from with every comment except for #5. What do you think we have been doing for 12 years?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405541 - 03/24/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

1. It will not make america safer from terrorism. rather, it diverts our attention from fighting terrorism, inflames anti-american sentiment worldwide, and erodes cooperation with our allies. all of these make it more difficult to counter the threat of terrorism.



really depends on who you ask. would you or the head of the CIA know better what will make america safer from terrorists? i'm not saying you're wrong, but we really won't know until after the war, and to say that this is going to increase terrorism is just speculation right now.
Quote:

2. It undermines our relationships with many other countries, including some long standing allies.



true, but some of our long standing allies are worthless (France)
Quote:

3. It will result in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of american soldiers, iraqi civilians, and iraqi soldiers.



true, but war always does. And if we were to leave saddam in power, there's no telling how many more would die. A former Baath party official estimated that Saddam had more than a thousand people executed every month since he came to power.
Quote:

It will costs billions of dollars at a time when our economy already isn't doing so hot.



true, but didn't the dow just jumps like 600 pts in three days? This war will actually be good for the economy.
Quote:

A peaceful solution to the situation could have been possible.



maybe, i'm not denying that Bush kinda fucked up with diplomacy in this situation, but the choice to go to war was the last one.


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Anonymous

Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: z@z.com]
    #1405544 - 03/24/03 10:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, starving their people to death is very peaceful.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: z@z.com]
    #1405560 - 03/24/03 10:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think we have been doing for 12 years?




Bombing Iraq? but seriously dont you think a much tougher inspection regime and a UN presence to enforce it could have contained the threat? Whats happening now is more punishment than containment.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: z@z.com]
    #1405566 - 03/24/03 10:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yep. you caught the one i'm least sure about (but i suppose it's the most important). i really do think that there could have been some way though.

if i was the guy in charge, i'd present this deal with saddam:

allow full access to weapons factories and facilities. do not build chemical or biological weapons. do not pursue a nuclear program. do not support terrorism.

in return:

sanctions will be lifted. you will not be invaded.

hmm... i suppose that's the deal he was already presented with though...

it's a tough call.

i really think there could have been a way to go about this that would involve our allies, not place the economic burden entirely on the US, and not make the US the sole focal point of resentment for this action.



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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 295
Loc: Somewhere rubbing my nugs...
Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405619 - 03/24/03 10:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We are giving Saddam what he wants. It's just the beginning, this war will cost thousands of lives. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. We tried to be "nice" in this war... that has failed. They are taking our incredible ability to destroy and turning it against us to damage our reputation in the world. Iraq is not going to change its strategy now that it sees it working. I wonder how many still believe this war was absolutely neccessary.

And I still say that war was not our last option. What was going to happen if we waited another couple of months? Would it have fucked things up more than the world's relationships now? Would more people have died? (no answer) ...If Saddam executed a thousand people a month where are the bodies, and I'm sure we would have the world's support if this were true.

Flow, the war will not be good for the economy. It will cost us hundreds of billions (which could have gone to struggling companies) and hurt our trade with other countries. Not to mention thousands of American workers left to fight in Iraq. The stock market is not the economy, it's a game nowadays


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: GazzBut]
    #1405656 - 03/24/03 11:07 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

but seriously dont you think a much tougher inspection regime and a UN presence to enforce it could have contained the threat? Whats happening now is more punishment than containment.



I do not think that Saddam would have allowed a tougher inspection regime and I do not think the UN would have done its job and forced Saddam to submit to the cease fire. I don't this war is about punishment. I believe it is about removing a ferocious dictator from power before he becomes a serious threat to the world.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 295
Loc: Somewhere rubbing my nugs...
Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: z@z.com]
    #1405687 - 03/24/03 11:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

In removing him we are making him a serious threat to world peace. Hate breeds hate, not peace. Only destruction will bring peace, and the world is not going to like us destroying towns and lives in Iraq. Hopefully, the war can be contained and it doesn't led to more hate or war.


Good job government, you have got your wish and now Saddam IS a serious threat to Americans and the rest of the world.


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1405698 - 03/24/03 11:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What was going to happen if we waited another couple of months?



nothing, but we waited 12 years. don't you understand that?
Quote:

Would more people have died?



yep
Quote:

If Saddam executed a thousand people a month where are the bodies, and I'm sure we would have the world's support if this were true.




well, saddam himself doesn't even really deny that this is true. also, one of his favorite methods of execution is acid baths which don't leave anything. Why would it be hard for him to hide the bodies?
Quote:

Flow, the war will not be good for the economy. It will cost us hundreds of billions (which could have gone to struggling companies) and hurt our trade with other countries.



hurt our trade with who?? It will do nothing of the sort.
Quote:

Not to mention thousands of American workers left to fight in Iraq. The stock market is not the economy, it's a game nowadays



we'll have to see i guess, but if the dow made huge jumps, then its because most investors are betting that the war will be good for the economy, because it usually is for the victors. There are already contracts signed with american companies to rebuild iraq supposedly worth about 900 million.


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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: flow]
    #1405726 - 03/24/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

900 million is a lot smaller than the 200 billion it cost to destroy it.

Money is money. Would you agree that 200 billion spent on american business (in ways such as tax cuts, employee benefits, and grants to new companies and inventors) would be better for the economy?

Hurt our trade with who??? We import more than we export... we would be in trouble if other countries increased tariffs on american exports, or taxed exports to america.


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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Anonymous

Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: flow]
    #1405757 - 03/24/03 11:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

really depends on who you ask. would you or the head of the CIA know better what will make america safer from terrorists? i'm not saying you're wrong, but we really won't know until after the war, and to say that this is going to increase terrorism is just speculation right now.

i've yet to read any statements by the head of the CIA indicating that he believes that this war will make us safer from terrorism. nor have i read any compelling argument from any source for that this war will make us safer. i can think of several reasons, which are totally solid, why it will make us more succeptable.

true, but some of our long standing allies are worthless (France)

the french are not worthless. we need our allies. now more than ever.

true, but war always does. And if we were to leave saddam in power, there's no telling how many more would die. A former Baath party official estimated that Saddam had more than a thousand people executed every month since he came to power.

yes, war means killing and dying, which is why it should only be used when there is no other choice and the benefits outway the cost in human lives.

criticisms of saddam must have a basis in the belief that after he is gone, the new guy in charge will be better. bush promises that a new, democratic government in iraq will spring up after hussien is gone. the result of US military action in panama, haiti, afganistan, and kuwait shows this promise being a difficult one to keep. there's really little reason to believe that the new guy will be any better for the iraqi people than saddam. (of course, they will benefit from the cessation of economic sanctions).

1000 people a month? source? a defecting iraqi? please. 1000? are you trying to tell me that since taking power, saddam hussein has ordered the execution of almost half a million people?

true, but didn't the dow just jumps like 600 pts in three days? This war will actually be good for the economy.

perhaps, but it fluctuates all the time. our economy isn't doing so hot right now, that's not even debatable. war is not good for the economy. i'll let pinksharkmark or evolving handle that one though.







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Anonymous

Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: flow]
    #1405766 - 03/24/03 11:47 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

one of his favorite methods of execution is acid baths which don't leave anything.

source?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405772 - 03/24/03 11:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have read this before, but I'm not sure where. I'll look.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: z@z.com]
    #1405779 - 03/24/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405804 - 03/24/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

are you trying to tell me that since taking power, saddam hussein has ordered the execution of almost half a million people?

Depends which human rights report you read. The lowest estimate I have seen is a few hundred thousand. The highest is just under a million.

perhaps, but it fluctuates all the time. our economy isn't doing so hot right now, that's not even debatable. war is not good for the economy.

Correct. The Dow didn't so much "jump" as it "recovered" from the beating it took based solely on uncertainty about whether or not there would be war. If you are a business owner and you know for sure there will be no war, you do A, B, and C, and arrive at a reasonable prediction of earnings, which then effects the shareholders' expectations. If you know fo sure there WILL be a war, then you do X, Y and Z instead, arrive at a different projection of earnings (might be more, might be less), and again the shareholders' expectations are reflected in the share price. But when you don't know whether to do A, B, and C or X, Y and Z, and the shareholders KNOW you don't know which way to move, your earnings projections have no credibility, and shareholders tend to dump equities and move into money market instruments.

It's not that war is necesarily either bad or good for the stock market so much as it is that uncertainty is always bad.

And yes, war is bad for the economy. Despite what some think, the stock market and the economy do not always move in lockstep. Both Evolving and I have showed why this is so on numerous past occasions. I refuse to do so every three or four days.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (03/24/03 12:03 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: ]
    #1405816 - 03/24/03 12:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster asks for a source for the "acid bath" method of execution.

Here are some sources for you:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/World/2020_iraqiwomen030321.html

check the link to the women of iraq org at the bottom of the article. I hope you have a strong stomach.

pinky





--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: why this war is a bad idea [Re: Phred]
    #1405826 - 03/24/03 12:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

oooooh.. nasty, nasty acid bath...


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