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OfflineBeanhead
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XI intelligence, gift or curse?
    #14053167 - 03/02/11 07:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I was thinking about tweaking again because i've abstained for moonnnthhs on end and just have fun in my journal and write 1654968 pages about this subject (because really, that's how it should be explained)

But a small introduction in this forum to start a discussion is good enough . Amphetamines is for another time :smirk:

Have fun reading!

From an etymological point of view the word "intelligence" is derived from the Latin "inter" (inbetween) and "legere" (to collect, read) . It expresses the quality to aqcuire data in the midst of an experience or in specific context and then choosing  the appropriate things which you correctly interpret/read so that it results in an intelligent decision, an intelligent act, an intelligent understanding, intelligent communication.

XI intelligent people don't want prechewed information, they want to discover the inherent patterns in data themselves. The capability to create their own structure makes them independent thinkers :smile:

On one condition: if said information interests them. :sad:

Yes yes giftedness... What can we call it? a gift or a curse?

Giftedness is asynchronous development in which higher cognitive abilities and heightened intensity go together and create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The special of the gifted makes them particularly vulnerable and requires a different approach to optimally develop.  (direct quote from columbus group, 1991)

This view differs radically from the general consensus about giftedness as outstanding performance in school or visible success as an adult. Asynchrony means that you develop faster: you're not synchronized with peers and age-related cultural norms. Giftedness is universally recognized as a disparity between mental age and physical age. The greater the difference between mental and physical age, the greater the sense of otherness. Ironically this asynchrony, this otherness, often is hard to fit in the patriarchal pictures of "a successful life." Asynchrony is apparent accompanied by anything but popular social characteristics: sensitivity, independence, intensity, curiosity, wit, depth, passion, reflection, moral awareness and perfectionism (there are diffirent types of all these characteristics aswell but argh must stay on topic :lol: ).

Gifted people see the world differently because of the complexity of their thought processes and their emotional intensity. People often say to them: Why make everything so complicated? Why take everything so seriously? Why is everything so important to you? Gifted people are all 'too': too sensitive, too intense, too driven, too honest, too idealistic, too moral, too perfectionistic, too much for other people! Even if their entire life trying to adapt, they still feel an outsider. The damage we inflict on gifted adults by ignoring this phenomenon is far greater than the damage by giving it a name. Without a label appoint themselves with their own label, "I'm obviously insane. Nobody else but me gets upset by this injustice. " (par example)

So as you can see giftedness is not the winning lottery ticket. being that intelligent and intense, the risk of social and psychological problems are increasing. Tolan Stephanie in her excellent article "Is it a cheetah?" shows what it means when you are constantly asked for - so to speak - 70 km per hour to drive when you're made for 200 km per hour to drive. what it means is that you constantly have to do things that do not fit you . It makes you apathetic, unmotivated, and depressed or aggressive. (life's a bitch like that :lol: )
Is it a cheetah?

But what if you do not really know you're made to drive at 200kmph?, what if you assume that you operate the same way as others? Then you blockade yourself with all its consequences: disease, psychosomatic symptoms, psychological problems, professional problems, conflicts in communication, relationship problems, addictions, a hole / void one / one node / one stone in yourself. Because that what isn't seen nor heard, what is not allowed to come to life, expresses(manifests?) itself in an unhealthy manner

‘Every organism has an internal drive to fulfill its biological design. The same is true for unusually bright people.'
Stephanie Tolan


Rarely anyone recognizes themselves as gifted. Your skills and talents, you take them for granted. The weaknesses, however those you are keenly aware of, because that's the wall you always bump into (goddamn 70 kmph)

When you get to hear that you may be gifted it's that hard to believe. Because you can't prove yourself in your daily experience. Untill someone explains how it works, the combination of intensity and intelligence. Until someone explains you that a man who can not fulfill a unique function, the desire to work to lose - what classic 'underachievement' is called. Until you explain that giftedness is not the red carpet to success is only a name for the vulnerability that increased awareness brings. And the puzzle pieces in your life begin to fall into place.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Beanhead]
    #14053242 - 03/02/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's a gift if you can get over your need to be understood at every turn. Being able to gain knowledge that others don't have is power, if you apply it instead of try to convince others of it. Self-doubt is the curse IMO. The fear of being alone with what you are.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Beanhead]
    #14053248 - 03/02/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that giftedness seems to bring a lot of suffering to the individual...

I'm sure we can all think of many examples where gifted people have lived very miserable lives and even killed themselves...

But it's as you say; their giftedness allows them to think with different patterns. But this means that they are unable to relate with the rest of the population and the rest of the population has almost no ability to understand the work of a gifted person.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14053304 - 03/02/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes i'm hoping to find some minds that think alike here :grin:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Beanhead]
    #14056695 - 03/02/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There're quite a few hermit types here...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflinePsylioSynethesis
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14056742 - 03/02/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
It's a gift if you can get over your need to be understood at every turn. Being able to gain knowledge that others don't have is power, if you apply it instead of try to convince others of it. Self-doubt is the curse IMO. The fear of being alone with what you are.




I really liked this. I think that it is this fear of being alone with yourself is what leads to what Durantz points out with, "I'm sure we can all think of many examples where gifted people have lived very miserable lives and even killed themselves..."

The problem many run into is the inability to express themselves to others (normals) on the same level as their internal monologue. This can be extremely irritating. Very much related to Bean's speed metaphor.


--------------------
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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: PsylioSynethesis]
    #14057398 - 03/02/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The problem many run into is the inability to express themselves to others (normals) on the same level as their internal monologue




Those people would see things that noone else could even accept existed.

Imagine Einstein going down to the pub with his fellow clerks and trying to explain to them how the theory of relativity works...


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14057444 - 03/02/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it becomes a gift once you realize your true potential
and give yourself the creative stimulation the gifted mind needs.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14057517 - 03/02/11 10:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But what does the gifted person do with this?

Do they follow through with it and face the hardship of persecution and ridicule from the rest of the world?

Or do they just slip into the herd and try to camouflage themselves?


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14057549 - 03/02/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They follow their intelligence and stop caring what the the
ignorant masses think. The world seen through the eyes of the
gifted is unique, and giving up this world to see it normally
is a disgrace to their dna.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14057592 - 03/02/11 11:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They follow their intelligence and stop caring what the the
ignorant masses think




why do so many commit suicide then?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14057606 - 03/02/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

because the meanings we forge don't hold water when seen for what they are. And in the face of meaninglessness, sometimes the suffering of this world just doesn't seem worth it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14057637 - 03/02/11 11:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Amen to that brother...

Generally it seems that gifted people want to do things for humanity though... you rarely see a very gifted person start off with evil intentions. They may end up evil because they grow to resent ignorance but it seems that most of them are good people.

So it seems that they find meaning in helping others. Or creating things which don't exist yet.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14057659 - 03/02/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think the gifted mind experiences emotion more vividly and
are more prone to suffering because they are more aware of
themselves. Also, the facts that gifted people are so different
from others and they are also more aware can be a depressing
reality without the right circumstances.

IMO, enlightenment and self-actualization can save the gifted
mind from suffering and enable it to reach it's potential, just
as they can for all minds.

I think the suicide rates compared between average intelligence
and high intelligence would show that suicide rates for average
intelligence would be higher, just guessing.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14057673 - 03/02/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's important to note that there is a variety of intelligences out there. Intellectual intelligence is one kind. Emotional intelligence a very different one.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesixxy
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14057707 - 03/02/11 11:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

sagacity ends the curse.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14057716 - 03/02/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hrmmmm a psychopath can have very high emotional intelligence but have no actual comprehension of it...

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves...

what does this say about emotional intelligence?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14057788 - 03/02/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Most likely that our emotions scare the shit out of us when we see them full on. Sociopaths get to see certain emotions in others that many of us try to hide from ourselves because we find them threatening. That's just my opinion.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14057837 - 03/03/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

@ op: still too vague :thaaannks:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14058368 - 03/03/11 03:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
I think the suicide rates compared between average intelligence
and high intelligence would show that suicide rates for average
intelligence would be higher, just guessing.




High intelligence is correlated with higher rates of depression, actually.  :sad:

Quote:

durantz said:
hrmmmm a psychopath can have very high emotional intelligence but have no actual comprehension of it...

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves...

what does this say about emotional intelligence?




Actually psychopaths generally have very low emotional intelligence:

Quote:

Laboratory research has documented psychopathy-related failures to attend to and make use of emotion stimuli (Newman & Lorenz, 2003), alter a dominant response set for reward in the face of growing punishments (Newman, Patterson, & Kosson, 1987), and discriminate among the affective aspects of words and faces (Blair et al., 2004).

...

Deficits in EI were associated (albeit modestly) with PCL-R total scores, the primary psychopathy subtype, and with the affective-interpersonal and impulsive-antisocial dimensions that comprise the two-factor model of psychopathy.

Overall, this study of EI suggests that individuals with primary psychopathy are both less likely to attend to emotion cues and less able to revise their mood states once emotions are experienced.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2344134/


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InvisibleCups
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14058655 - 03/03/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

High intelligence is correlated with higher rates of depression, actually.  :sad:





Does this really surprise anyone?

Icelander posted awhile back about some research which showed depression actually results in extreme focus by brain on a particular problem.  Duh right, but perhaps this explains some of why this happens in highly intelligent people.  They can focus and examine things better and when that stray "depressive" thought comes a knocking...oh boy.

Quote:

because the meanings we forge don't hold water when seen for what they are. And in the face of meaninglessness, sometimes the suffering of this world just doesn't seem worth it.




I'm sure it has something to do with this too.


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What's up everybody?!


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14058823 - 03/03/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

mushiepussy said:
I think the suicide rates compared between average intelligence
and high intelligence would show that suicide rates for average
intelligence would be higher, just guessing.




High intelligence is correlated with higher rates of depression, actually.  :sad:

Quote:

durantz said:
hrmmmm a psychopath can have very high emotional intelligence but have no actual comprehension of it...

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves...

what does this say about emotional intelligence?




Actually psychopaths generally have very low emotional intelligence:

Quote:

Laboratory research has documented psychopathy-related failures to attend to and make use of emotion stimuli (Newman & Lorenz, 2003), alter a dominant response set for reward in the face of growing punishments (Newman, Patterson, & Kosson, 1987), and discriminate among the affective aspects of words and faces (Blair et al., 2004).

...

Deficits in EI were associated (albeit modestly) with PCL-R total scores, the primary psychopathy subtype, and with the affective-interpersonal and impulsive-antisocial dimensions that comprise the two-factor model of psychopathy.

Overall, this study of EI suggests that individuals with primary psychopathy are both less likely to attend to emotion cues and less able to revise their mood states once emotions are experienced.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2344134/







Quote:

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves




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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14060291 - 03/03/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They can focus and examine things better and when that stray "depressive" thought comes a knocking...oh boy.

What about a genious with adhd? They have problems focusing
but they are some of the most creative minds in humanity.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14060661 - 03/03/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:shrug:

I think you have to define what you mean by depression.  IMO There's a thought based depression  brought about by analysis and loss of hope when you don't like the answer.

Then there's the chemical side.  ADHD is biochemical in nature so it stands to reason the potential is there.

Sometimes it's all in your head and sometimes it is your head.  Know what I mean?


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14060847 - 03/03/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves







If they have low emotional intelligence then they DON'T know what makes people 'tick', though.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Beanhead]
    #14060964 - 03/03/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

JUMPING INTO A PHOTO ! unwanted.
Grinning before the snapshot, unsuspecting of the SNAP shot.
From this speed limit  i have developed a hair trigger and a reluctance to remorse.
Only those who are notably displeased will be the ones who belong in the picture.

cALM DOWN...

why ?

cause

cause why ?

why.. cause.




*turns around and implodes


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibleCups
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: jivJaN]
    #14060991 - 03/03/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yeah absolutely
:suicide:


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What's up everybody?!


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Cups]
    #14061283 - 03/03/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Me ?
Never.

U know.. back in the day people used to put a slice of lemon in their coke.
Now the coke just tastes like theres a lemon already in it.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14061341 - 03/03/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves







If they have low emotional intelligence then they DON'T know what makes people 'tick', though.




Yeah. Good link. It also suggests that they are lost when it comes to effective emotional regulation. And it makes sense, if you are unable to learn what others do to regulate their emotions by seeing those emotions in others, then you have a much more guess and check style of regulation. I'm not sure that psychology has the tools to properly assess how well a sociopath / psychopath actually can regulate because we are looking for typical responses to specific stimuli. Novel solutions will fly right under the radar. Uninhibited emotions may be taken as poorly regulated even if it has been learned as the most direct way to get negative affective states through. No silly social games doesn't necessarily suggest low EI even though a normed measure that looks at behavior will say yes.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleCups
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: jivJaN] * 1
    #14061449 - 03/03/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

U know.. back in the day people used to put a slice of lemon in their coke.
Now the coke just tastes like theres a lemon already in it.




Is this a roundabout way of telling us you've lost it jivJaN?


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14062269 - 03/03/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

They know what makes people 'tick' but they fail to 'tick' themselves







If they have low emotional intelligence then they DON'T know what makes people 'tick', though.




Ok knowing and understanding are two different things. They may not understand WHY a person has a particular emotional response to something but they can easily work out what triggers that response!

A sociopath has just as much intelligence as anyone else (in a lot of cases they are more intelligent). So do you think it would be hard for them to find a causal relationship between action and emotion?

They KNOW what makes people tick. By that i mean they can see what actions will cause which emotional responses.

That research you quoted was testing the ability of the psychopath to express emotion and to change their emotional response... I'm sorry but that has nothing to do with their capacity to "read" other people's emotion.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14062412 - 03/03/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
That research you quoted was testing the ability of the psychopath to express emotion and to change their emotional response... I'm sorry but that has nothing to do with their capacity to "read" other people's emotion.




Actually, it does: "Laboratory research has documented psychopathy-related failures to ... discriminate among the affective aspects of words and faces (Blair et al., 2004)."


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14062460 - 03/03/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Let's replace 'affective' with 'emotional' because it's more common.

So that sentence will become "failures to discriminate among the emotional aspects of words and faces"

Now what that is saying is that they are presented with a number of 'human' faces with varying emotional states. They are they measured on their reaction to these faces. So the research has found very little difference in their reactions to these faces.

So again I say that the research is measuring the psychopaths reaction to emotion, NOT his ability to read emotion in others.

But thanks for bringing that research up cos it is good evidence for the point I'm making. :thumbup:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14062503 - 03/03/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, what it's saying is that psychopaths are unable to discriminate between different emotional states that people are expressing, or in other words that they can't read expressed emotion very well.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14062536 - 03/03/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's where most of the times their intelligence plays a part; they can't feel emotions but they can observe others and associate facial expressions and body movement characteristics to emotions without the slightest understanding on how it should feel)

Therefore you have sociopaths and such... Psychopath =/ autism


Edited by Beanhead (03/03/11 07:57 PM)


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14063669 - 03/03/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No, what it's saying is that psychopaths are unable to discriminate between different emotional states that people are expressing, or in other words that they can't read expressed emotion very well.




Oh it's ok I see where you went wrong. You must have found an article and only read the introduction... I study psychology and they teach us to read the whole article...

So here is what I found out by reading the whole thing.

Quote:

we hypothesized that psychopathic individuals would display lower levels of EI than controls. To our knowledge, the present study represents the FIRST test of this hypothesis.




Quote:

we predicted that primary psychopathic individuals would earn lower scores than controls on the TMMS Attention and Repair scales though not on the TMMS Clarity scale. The results were in line with these predictions although group differences on the Repair scale fell slightly short of statistical significance.




Quote:

Our hypothesis that primary psychopathic individuals would be less adept than controls at shifting their focus of attention to repair negative emotions was only partially supported




Here's some information from the LIMITATIONS section of the article. Did you read that?

Quote:

In considering these findings, it is important to note that the TMMS is a self-report measure. As such, we can not conclude that it necessarily informs us about the ability of participants to engage in different aspects of processing (e.g., shifting their attention). It can only reveal whether they perceive themselves as “paying attention to how they feel”




Quote:

An additional limitation pertains to our all-male Caucasian sample. To establish the generalizability of our findings, future research should address whether gender and/or race differences exist in the pattern of associations between psychopathy and EI.




The only quotes you took were from the intro section... and in the intro did you not read the part where the author said
Quote:

Despite the growing research literatures on psychopathy and EI, there appear to be no published articles documenting their association.



???


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14063864 - 03/03/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Oh and I forgot to add that the participants of this study were all prison inmates. So this is a very biased sample because there are many sociopaths who go undetected in society.

The ones in prison are the ones who have completely failed to adapt to society. I'd be much more interested in a study of the 'successful' sociopaths.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14064058 - 03/04/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What's your point?  Of course all studies will have limitations, and it's only natural that studies on psychopaths will have to be conducted on those who are in prison because those who aren't will have to hide their psychopathic status from the rest of society.  Furthermore, I did indeed read the article and from the Discussion section itself it reads:

Quote:

Consistent with this view, deficits in EI were associated (albeit modestly) with PCL-R total scores, the primary psychopathy subtype, and with the affective-interpersonal and impulsive-antisocial dimensions that comprise the two-factor model of psychopathy.




and

Quote:

Overall, this study of EI suggests that individuals with primary psychopathy are both less likely to attend to emotion cues and less able to revise their mood states once emotions are experienced.




Once again, showing that psychopaths are unable to discriminate between different emotional states that people are expressing.  Naturally, more studies should be taken to further confirm these results but nothing you've pulled from that article goes against what I'm saying.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064092 - 03/04/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The study regarding the ability to discriminate affect, Blair et al., 2004, was its own seperate study. It was only referenced in the article linked. To discount or verify the affect findings would require digging up the study referenced.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14064118 - 03/04/11 12:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Right, but the original study mentioned still demonstrates that psychopaths show deficits in emotional intelligence and are less likely to attend to emotional states, which strongly points to an inability to discriminate in affect, as supported by the Blair findings.

Here's the abstract from the Blair study if anyone's interested.  I could pull up the full thing if I wanted to shell out thirty bucks, which I ain't gonna do.  :lol:
Quote:

This study investigates the ability of psychopathic individuals to process facial emotional expressions. Psychopathic and comparison individuals, as defined by the Hare Psychopathy Checklist Revised (PCL-R), were presented with a standardized set of facial expressions depicting six emotions: happy, surprised, disgusted, angry, sad and fearful. Participants observed as these facial expressions slowly evolved through 20 successive frames of increasing intensity. The dependent variables were latency in responding as measured by frame and number of errors. The psychopathic individuals showed selective impairment for the recognition of fearful expressions. The results are interpreted with reference to the Violence Inhibition Mechanism model of psychopathy and the suggestion that psychopathic individuals present with amygdala dysfunction.




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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064204 - 03/04/11 12:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I could pull up the full thing if I wanted to shell out thirty bucks, which I ain't gonna do.




If you guys want me to get any articles I can get them through uni for you. Would probably have to email them to you though cos putting them up on the forum would be against copyright law.

Quote:

Once again, showing that psychopaths are unable to discriminate between different emotional states that people are expressing




Nowhere in the article does it say this! Not one sentence. and I have read the whole thing.

The strongest word it uses is "less likely".

So from a highly biased and very small sample size the best they could get was "less likely"...

If I was going to undergo a medical operation I would want a LOT more evidence than this to support its efficacy!!!


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14064244 - 03/04/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

I could pull up the full thing if I wanted to shell out thirty bucks, which I ain't gonna do.




If you guys want me to get any articles I can get them through uni for you. Would probably have to email them to you though cos putting them up on the forum would be against copyright law.




Sure, if you like.  I can get it at my University too but I'm not suspicious enough of the study's findings to warrant extra energy expenditure on my part.  :lol:

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

Once again, showing that psychopaths are unable to discriminate between different emotional states that people are expressing




Nowhere in the article does it say this! Not one sentence. and I have read the whole thing.




Right here, in different words obviously:

"Laboratory research has documented psychopathy-related failures to ... discriminate among the affective aspects of words and faces (Blair et al., 2004)."

Also, from Wiki:

Quote:

In a 2002 study, David Kosson and Yana Suchy, et al. asked psychopathic inmates to name the emotion expressed on each of 30 faces; compared to the control group, psychopaths had a significantly lower rate of accuracy in recognizing disgusted facial affect but a higher rate of accuracy in recognizing anger. Additionally, when "conditions designed to minimize the involvement of right-hemispheric mechanisms" (i.e., sadness) were used, psychopaths had more difficulty accurately identifying emotions.



source


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064270 - 03/04/11 01:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"Laboratory research has documented psychopathy-related failures to ... discriminate among the affective aspects of words and faces (Blair et al., 2004)."




I thought we established that this was from another study... so we need to get that study and sus out how relevant it is...

The article you cited is claiming to be the FIRST one to look at the link between EI and Psychopathy. So Blair's article is related to something else.

As far as the Kosson & Suchy study goes it seems to just precede the Blair study. I bet if we looked in the Blair article we would find a reference to it. (should I check it out?)

One way or another dude we have a lot more research to do on sociopaths before we can conclude that they are not emotionally intelligent.

We've got to somehow find the hidden sociopaths and study them rather than the ones who are in prison. Cos surely you can see that the current studies are all greatly limited by their participants.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14064354 - 03/04/11 01:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just sayin' that quote is from the first article, whether or not it references the Blair study.  At any rate we can at least say that psychopaths who have been caught exhibit deficits in emotional intelligence and are generally unable to discriminate differences in facial affect.  I don't see why this wouldn't extend to those who haven't been caught, though... is the difference between a caught psychopath and a free psychopath the ability to discriminate differences in facial affect or simply intelligence or a matter of not having been caught yet?


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14064447 - 03/04/11 02:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
...is the difference between a caught psychopath and a free psychopath the ability to discriminate differences in facial affect or simply intelligence or a matter of not having been caught yet?


Perhaps both their ability to discriminate differences in facial effect and their intelligence contribute to the likelihood of them being caught...:FattyNoneck:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Poid]
    #14064563 - 03/04/11 03:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

are generally unable to discriminate differences in facial affect




No I'm sorry we can't say that. The dude's admitted themselves that their evidence was only very slight.

So we couldn't say generally. We could say 'more often than not', but then again that could just mean 51% are and 49% are not...

So much more research needs to be done before we can conclude anything.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14064580 - 03/04/11 03:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The Kosson and Suchy study shows a "significantly lower rate of accuracy in recognizing disgusted facial affect", not to mention increased difficulty in recognizing emotions.  The 'slight evidence' you're referring to is talking about a TMSS Attention and Repair scale, which as far as I can tell refers to attention to one’s feelings and the ability to repair one’s mood.  Given the significantly lower rate of accuracy mentioned in the Kosson and Suchy study, I'll bet the Blair study also shows such significant results, but we'll have to wait to see if my prediction is confirmed.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14065272 - 03/04/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In psychological testing a significant statistic can be a correlation as low as 0.3... that's basically around 30%...

More research is needed!


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14065389 - 03/04/11 09:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

More research certainly can't hurt but my point was solely that a correlation does exist, and that it's statistically significant.  :lol:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14065864 - 03/04/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
In psychological testing a significant statistic can be a correlation as low as 0.3... that's basically around 30%...

More research is needed!




No peer reviewed literature would state "significant" unless the p-value was below .05.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #14067394 - 03/04/11 05:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Now you going to make me find that Kosson and Suchy study and read the damn results!! grrrrrrr where is it?


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067487 - 03/04/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OMG I'm glad I did read the article!!!

Ok on the participants.

34 Psychopaths VS 33 Non-Psychopaths (anyone else think this is a small sample size?)

Average IQ of psychopath group: 93.79 (OMG the mean intelligence was BELOW the average intelligence of the general population. Average IQ =100. Anyone else see how this could affect the results?)

Average IQ of non-psychopath group: 96.09. (WOW this group was smarter than the psychopath group. Anyone see how this could affect the results?)

Also they only tested people who were right handed (I'm not sure why they did this but this would also bias the results)

41% African-American! They couldn't even manage to make the ethnicity of the sample uniform.

ok time for the results:

1. They were unable to establish a normal distribution for results on the emotions of; happiness, sadness, and surprise. So they discounted them from the analyses. This left only anger, disgust, and fear. (Hrmmmm anyone else see a problem with this? these emotions are quite similar!! They are all negative emotions)

2. OMFG!!! The overall scores for correct responses to all 6 emotions were this.

Psychopaths (M=71.38 SD=12.53) Non-psychopaths (M=73.24 SD =12.43) (d=0.15)!!!!!!!

This is the SIGNIFICANT difference you were talking about.

Dude their results table is simply amazing! I wish I could send it to you. Cos you would then see how limited their experiment was.

Quote:

No peer reviewed literature would state "significant" unless the p-value was below .05.




They also have weak, moderate, and strong classifications of significant.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067594 - 03/04/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I just gotta quote some of their discussion section cos it is GOLD.

Quote:

their deficits were not general in nature but rather were evident only under specific circumstances




Quote:

In particular, the present study did not provide evidence that psychopaths are deficient at classifying fear and sadness. In fact, 44% of psychopaths and 42% of nonpsychopaths correctly identified 100% of the sad faces




Quote:

when faced with fearful facial expressions may not be due to an inability to interpret or label such expressions, but rather may reflect a failure to trigger appropriate autonomic activity in response to these stimuli.




Quote:

Finally, contrary to expectations, the present results
also suggest that psychopaths may be relatively better
than nonpsychopaths at detecting anger,




Anyways dude I'm sure I've proved my point


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067639 - 03/04/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting; so they're only incapable of discriminating between particular emotions then.  That was a very misleading reference.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14067642 - 03/04/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup: for taking the time to examine it.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14067645 - 03/04/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah the particular one was disgust. All the others they were basically very similar to the non-psychopaths.

Also you've got to remember that on this particular test men perform badly anyway.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067657 - 03/04/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Strange... why disgust and not other emotions?  There's gotta be some neurological explanation for this.  :strokebeard:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: deCypher]
    #14067670 - 03/04/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well it's definitely a good question for more research :smile:

Are you studying psych too?


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067698 - 03/04/11 06:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I'm a psych major.  :grin:  I presume you are as well?


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067773 - 03/04/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Cause their used to seeing reactions to their craziness, and
I'm geussing they look for disgust more intently than others.

If your super sexy like I am then your probably used to
looking for(and finding) lust on chicks faces, and ignoring other
emotions cause the looks of lust are a sure sign your gettin
laid.

When your more focused on recognizing a particular emotion,
it becomes easy to identify.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14067859 - 03/04/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Cause their used to seeing reactions to their craziness, and
I'm geussing they look for disgust more intently than others.

If your super sexy like I am then your probably used to
looking for(and finding) lust on chicks faces, and ignoring other
emotions cause the looks of lust are a sure sign your gettin
laid.

When your more focused on recognizing a particular emotion,
it becomes easy to identify.




Yeah dude read the posts. They have TROUBLE identifying disgust...

I should stop saying 'they'. I mean this particular sample had trouble identifying disgust.


Edited by durantz (03/04/11 07:15 PM)


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067881 - 03/04/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Main Entry: disgust
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: cause aversion; repel

Synonyms: abominate, be repulsive, bother, cloy on, disenchant, displease, disturb, fill with loathing, gross out, insult, irk, make one sick, nauseate, offend, offend morals of, outrage, pall, pique, put off, reluct, repulse, revolt, scandalize, shock, sicken, surfeit, turn off, turn one's stomach, upset

Antonyms: admire, appeal, desire, esteem, like, love, respect, revere


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz]
    #14067898 - 03/04/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Haha wow. Then take everything I said and make it the opposite.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14067933 - 03/04/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hehe ok!!! We forgive you.

I'm actually interested to know which emotion the psychopaths confused disgust with...

Cos looking at those synonyms some of them are quite similar to anger.


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14071518 - 03/05/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i feel disgusted quite a bit more than any other emotion if disgust is an emotion at all.
i tell people that i am afraid of birds but my fear is actually disgust.
to me they are just hideous creatures. i fear them as i would fear a flying turd.

i often feel disgusted by humans as well.
its hard to explain ..
i don't like eating around other people.
the way they chew makes me very angry.
not your ordinary angry.. i literally start seeing these people as useless animals that need to be put to sleep. rid the world of their smelly insides and the countless tons of shit they produce.

but i dont really mean it.
its just a reaction at the moment.
horrible thoughts i get sometimes and its often because i feel disgusted that i do.

sometimes.. i feel digust for a female i just had sex with.
i feel dirty for even touching her and letting her touch me.
i have tainted myself with this unworthy.

sometimes.. i feel sick and want to go throw up.
i dont like letting them sleep in my bed.
luckily.. my cat conducts the golden shower punishment and this brings a smile to my face.
This is our territory...
How dare she ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: jivJaN]
    #14071539 - 03/05/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: jivJaN]
    #14071714 - 03/05/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
i feel disgusted quite a bit more than any other emotion if disgust is an emotion at all.
i tell people that i am afraid of birds but my fear is actually disgust.
to me they are just hideous creatures. i fear them as i would fear a flying turd.

i often feel disgusted by humans as well.
its hard to explain ..
i don't like eating around other people.
the way they chew makes me very angry.




you would have liked my old friend, eating his 9 patty A&W burger.

I swear he had pig genes in him.  it was always a competition for him to finish his food before anyone else.  then he'd boast about it and laugh at everyone for being slow eaters.

that was.. grade 8?  and then I got high :lol:  thank GAWD.

nevar again!!  :awedisgust:


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Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: jivJaN]
    #14075083 - 03/06/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
i feel disgusted quite a bit more than any other emotion if disgust is an emotion at all.
i tell people that i am afraid of birds but my fear is actually disgust.
to me they are just hideous creatures. i fear them as i would fear a flying turd.

i often feel disgusted by humans as well.
its hard to explain ..
i don't like eating around other people.
the way they chew makes me very angry.
not your ordinary angry.. i literally start seeing these people as useless animals that need to be put to sleep. rid the world of their smelly insides and the countless tons of shit they produce.

but i dont really mean it.
its just a reaction at the moment.
horrible thoughts i get sometimes and its often because i feel disgusted that i do.

sometimes.. i feel digust for a female i just had sex with.
i feel dirty for even touching her and letting her touch me.
i have tainted myself with this unworthy.

sometimes.. i feel sick and want to go throw up.
i dont like letting them sleep in my bed.
luckily.. my cat conducts the golden shower punishment and this brings a smile to my face.
This is our territory...
How dare she ?




Not sure how this really applies to the thread, but I :lol:. Also, I don't like eating around people either/watching them eat. I really don't differentiate the various stages of digestion and I prefer not to watch any of it.

Are you suggesting that high intelligence has something to do with a obsession with cleanliness? Or was that bit just random?


--------------------
P~S



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OfflineRJB
Stranger
Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 1
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: Kickle]
    #20231979 - 07/06/14 12:36 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Why is the suicide rate higher for the so called gifted or unique thinkers you ask? Well, Friends and social acceptance is nearly non-existent for most. They may live in an isolated environment out of necessity rather than desire. They're always on the outside looking in. They have no where to turn and more likely than not, don't even know they are unique opposed to weird or strange. Working with others is difficult and frustrating. I could go on but I think I have suggested adequate reasoning. When you're always swimming against the tide, drowning not only seams possible, but expected. Void of a soft spot to land (friends, family etc...), the gifted tend to crash harder than norm.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: XI intelligence, gift or curse? [Re: RJB]
    #20232174 - 07/06/14 01:25 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:  Now leave me alone while I go play the ukulele for my dogs.  :drunkdriver:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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