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Invisiblelysergicasians
Revolutionary.
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Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
paper money.
    #14053088 - 03/02/11 07:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



what do you think?


Edited by lysergicasians (03/02/11 07:36 AM)


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14053097 - 03/02/11 07:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The word for this is FIAT currency, and yes I agree.  No practical use at all unless you want to make a small fire.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: paper money. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14053122 - 03/02/11 07:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I find that it has quite a lot of uses and is far from worthless.  I am able to trade it for food, shelter, drugs, transportation - just about anything I want.

If you truly do think it is worthless, then I assume you have already given all of your away?


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: paper money. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14053147 - 03/02/11 07:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I find that it has quite a lot of uses and is far from worthless.  I am able to trade it for food, shelter, drugs, transportation - just about anything I want.

If you truly do think it is worthless, then I assume you have already given all of your away?




Because you have been trained to treat it that way?

It's actual value is paper/ink.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: paper money. [Re: teknix]
    #14053171 - 03/02/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Again, if you really believe that then you must just toss it in the recycle bin with the rest of your worthless paper and ink.


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Invisiblelysergicasians
Revolutionary.
Male


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
Re: paper money. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14053548 - 03/02/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

[edit: flames removed, member warned]


Edited by geokills (03/02/11 03:21 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: paper money. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14053564 - 03/02/11 09:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Gee, thanks.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: paper money. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14053655 - 03/02/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm fine with it.

It provides a standard unit of value that is excellent for trade and redeemable for all my current needs.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineYgor
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Re: paper money. [Re: badchad]
    #14053700 - 03/02/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, paper money is a social fiction. It is only worth something because we all agree that it should be worth something.
And yes, it is easier to buy into this social fiction when something as powerful as a government is backing it.

But I have to ask, would anything else be different? Gold only has a value because we all agree that is does. Same with any other commodity.

The only alternative left would seem to be barter. You pull out my abscessed tooth, if I give you these chickens. And we've tried that. It was too limiting. We need the possibility of credit, the liquidity that a fiat currency gives us.


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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InvisibleSubetai
Nigerian Prince
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Registered: 03/02/11
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Re: paper money. [Re: badchad]
    #14053727 - 03/02/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OK, so lets assume for the moment that fiat currency is worthless.  What should currency be backed with instead?  Gold seems to be a popular choice, from what I have seen.

But what is the intrinsic worth of gold?  Doesn't gold also only derive its value from society as well, that people see gold as desirable in the first place?

And the, the same could be said of silver.  Or diamonds.  Or scrap metal...

...oh dear God...

Everything is valueless!  There is no truth anywhere!  It is all nothing, merde, dirt!  There is nothing left to live for, except to dress in black, write depressingly bad poetry and muse on the meaningless of existence while drinking expensive coffee!

Damn you.  Damn you, fiat currency.


--------------------
"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: Subetai]
    #14053799 - 03/02/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Subetai said:
OK, so lets assume for the moment that fiat currency is worthless.  What should currency be backed with instead?  Gold seems to be a popular choice, from what I have seen.

But what is the intrinsic worth of gold?  Doesn't gold also only derive its value from society as well, that people see gold as desirable in the first place?

And the, the same could be said of silver.  Or diamonds.  Or scrap metal...

...oh dear God...

Everything is valueless!  There is no truth anywhere!  It is all nothing, merde, dirt!  There is nothing left to live for, except to dress in black, write depressingly bad poetry and muse on the meaningless of existence while drinking expensive coffee!

Damn you.  Damn you, fiat currency.





What about salt?  What about canabis for rope, resins, paper, fuel, and everything else it does? Stuff that actually has value... What are we going to do when the whole shit house goes up in flames?  All that green paper that was so valuable before is shit.. We have to much worthless shit that we dont need these days, we forget about the really important stuff.  Hence we are a consumer/capitalist society.  And all that big business wants you to do is BUY BUY BUY, so they can put fuel in there yacht or private jet, while we, the average prolitariat are exploited for labor.  At the same time it would be a lie for me to sit here and type to you that I do not like some of the innovations that has come from this competition and consumerism, for example i love my I-pod and so on.. Its a tough debate with very little middle ground.  But on another subject coin actually holds value such as silver gold, brass.  The fact is if you have enough you can smelt these coins and make other things.  So coin per say is not valueless in all practicality.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053834 - 03/02/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just because one likes using fiat currency doesn't mean we are foolish enough to store wealth in it.  Nobody is saying you have to store all of your wealth in fiat currency.  Just about anybody that has any amount of wealth worth saving is going to have it well diversified so that whatever type of shit storm happens, some of it will be protected.  In the mean time, fiat is used for and useful as a medium of exchanging wealth.


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: Subetai]
    #14053841 - 03/02/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Subetai said:
There is nothing left to live for, except to dress in black, write depressingly bad poetry and muse on the meaningless of existence while drinking expensive coffee!

Damn you.  Damn you, fiat currency.




HAHAHA DUDE  :laugh2:

Meet you at starbucks  :cheers:


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053849 - 03/02/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with using randomly selected "useful" goods as currency (e.g. salt) is that they aren't universal.  Also, many "useful" goods are worthless in raw form, and thus worthless to someone that lacks the ability to refine them.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14053865 - 03/02/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Just because one likes using fiat currency doesn't mean we are foolish enough to store wealth in it.  Nobody is saying you have to store all of your wealth in fiat currency.  Just about anybody that has any amount of wealth worth saving is going to have it well diversified so that whatever type of shit storm happens, some of it will be protected.  In the mean time, fiat is used for and useful as a medium of exchanging wealth.




You are right in a way, and I dont disagree with you.  I respect everyone's opinion, and we are all right in a way with this debate... Its a tough subject.. For now it works O.K.  The problem with money is always going to be inflation, as more money is pumped out to keep up with demand, It simply looses value.


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: badchad]
    #14053874 - 03/02/11 10:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The problem with using randomly selected "useful" goods as currency (e.g. salt) is that they aren't universal.  Also, many "useful" goods are worthless in raw form, and thus worthless to someone that lacks the ability to refine them.




Salt's usefullness is infinite, and it is universal.


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OfflineYgor
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053883 - 03/02/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
Salt's usefullness is infinite, and it is universal.




This is why every household will have several kilos of salt on hand, at all times.


Wait, what?


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053884 - 03/02/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It simply looses value.




Why is that a problem?  If money didnt inflate, people would horde it instead of putting it in other real forms of wealth which equates to investment.  Simply put,  hoarding slows and economy and investing grows it.  Thats why its good to have currency inflate at a low and predictable rate.  The trouble comes with deflation, then people hoard, or fast inflation which creates panic to get rid of the money.


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14053909 - 03/02/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It simply looses value.




Why is that a problem?  If money didnt inflate, people would horde it instead of putting it in other real forms of wealth which equates to investment.  Simply put,  hoarding slows and economy and investing grows it.  Thats why its good to have currency inflate at a low and predictable rate.  The trouble comes with deflation, then people hoard, or fast inflation which creates panic to get rid of the money.




You just answered your own question...


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

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Posts: 13,372
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye] * 1
    #14053910 - 03/02/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
Salt's usefullness is infinite, and it is universal.




Beyond seasoning food, it's essentially useless to me.

And at my current wages, I'd probably bring in 2,000 pounds of salt per week.  How would I even get that home OR move it for any sort of trade?  And how would I know how much salt is equivalent to a new car?  Meh, I have some idea now, but that's only because of the paper currency standard.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: Ygor]
    #14053913 - 03/02/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ygor said:
Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
Salt's usefullness is infinite, and it is universal.




This is why every household will have several kilos of salt on hand, at all times.


Wait, what?




I challenge you to find a house that doesnt have salt in it.  Hence it being universally used.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: badchad]
    #14053934 - 03/02/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
Salt's usefullness is infinite, and it is universal.




Beyond seasoning food, it's essentially useless to me.

And at my current wages, I'd probably bring in 2,000 pounds of salt per week.  How would I even get that home OR move it for any sort of trade?  And how would I know how much salt is equivalent to a new car?  Meh, I have some idea now, but that's only because of the paper currency standard.




You fail to see what im taking about.. If money were not an issue, and people couldnt obtain salts by regular means (going to the store.)  You would become very popular.  And its just an idea, Im not totally serious about salt being the one and grand master currency.  I was talking about a barter system.. Im sorry if I confused you.


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OfflineYgor
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053965 - 03/02/11 11:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ooh, I see now. This salt currency is being used in a post-apocalyptic wasteland scenario.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about practical alternatives.


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053977 - 03/02/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, I got your point.  I was merely illustrating how a barter system still involved the physical distribution, transfer, and storage of goods.  I'm sorry if I confused you.

Beyond that, haggling and bartering for goods sucks.  Ever been to a less developed country and tried to haggle prices, and/or barter for goods?  Its not fun at all.  It's like buying a car, but for every item you need.  This also requires knowledge of all types of services and goods to know their relative value.

IMO an agreed upon paper standard is superior in every way except long term storage.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleSubetai
Nigerian Prince
Male

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 14
Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14053991 - 03/02/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The barter system is utterly useless unless you have something I want and vice-versa.  Also many items I would want to barter for (ie; food) are perishable, and if the local barter system is built on perishable items, saving for more expensive and hard to find goods becomes impossible.

A barter system is highly limited.  That's why barter transactions only predominate in pre-industrial societies.


--------------------
"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisibleteknix
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: paper money. [Re: Subetai]
    #14054011 - 03/02/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Subetai said:
OK, so lets assume for the moment that fiat currency is worthless.  What should currency be backed with instead?  Gold seems to be a popular choice, from what I have seen.

But what is the intrinsic worth of gold?  Doesn't gold also only derive its value from society as well, that people see gold as desirable in the first place?

And the, the same could be said of silver.  Or diamonds.  Or scrap metal...

...oh dear God...

Everything is valueless!  There is no truth anywhere!  It is all nothing, merde, dirt!  There is nothing left to live for, except to dress in black, write depressingly bad poetry and muse on the meaningless of existence while drinking expensive coffee!

Damn you.  Damn you, fiat currency.




Nope, can't be said of silver or gold really, as it is useful and has an application.

Although Silver is way more applicable than gold it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_11_element


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: Ygor]
    #14054013 - 03/02/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ygor said:
Ooh, I see now. This salt currency is being used in a post-apocalyptic wasteland scenario.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about practical alternatives.




No we are talking besides the psychological grip on the mind that it holds, money is actually not a practical item.....  It woud help maybe if you read the original post up at the top.... And badchad I agree and disagree.  Its hard to change things so ingrained in people's minds, but at the same time its working great for everyone right?  Economies around the world are on the up an up.


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OfflineYgor
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14054237 - 03/02/11 12:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
money is actually not a practical item..... 




Really? I personally solve most of my debt-related issues with money. Very practical.

How is paying people with salt working out for you? Practical much?


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: Ygor]
    #14054255 - 03/02/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

[edit: flames removed, member warned]


Edited by geokills (03/03/11 09:44 AM)


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14054262 - 03/02/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And you will always be in debt.. Can you guess why?  :awenuhuh:


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OfflineYgor
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14054321 - 03/02/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think there's any need for flaming.


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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InvisibleSubetai
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Re: paper money. [Re: teknix]
    #14054368 - 03/02/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Nope, can't be said of silver or gold really, as it is useful and has an application.

Although Silver is way more applicable than gold it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_11_element




Are you suggesting paper and ink do not have uses or applications?


--------------------
"Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: paper money. [Re: Subetai]
    #14054932 - 03/02/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The ink on it is pretty unusables for anything I can think of, it's worth the paper to start a fire like someone said, but you can get way better fire starting material that has fuel on it for cheaper.





Edited by teknix (03/02/11 02:30 PM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: paper money. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14054937 - 03/02/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If money didnt inflate, people would horde it instead of putting it in other real forms of wealth which equates to investment.





I disagree! If money didnt inflate people would have more to invest with, and they would have the luxury of being able to invest more wisely without the constant eroding of both their investment and their earnings.

Would you invest any less if money didnt inflate? I think you'd invest more since you'd have more and it would yield more, so that when retirement comes you not just have the bread, you have the cheese to put on the bread.

Do YOU, personally, need the lashes with the whip of inflation to make you invest harder? I think you'd invest as much as you can under any condition (and yes we agree that is a good thing)

Its not freedom when you are FORCED to do it, its coercion. Inflation is SLAVERY.

You could add a whole new direction in your portfolio if you were suddenly given back the wealth taken from you by inflation. So how is inflation helping you?


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: paper money. [Re: Asante]
    #14055899 - 03/02/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:

Would you invest any less if money didnt inflate? I think you'd invest more since you'd have more and it would yield more, so that when retirement comes you not just have the bread, you have the cheese to put on the bread.





Yes.  If money didn't inflate, I would invest less.

My major expense is my house payment.  This payment, however, will remain fixed.  It won't change. 

Over the course of time, my wages will increase, and the home payment will become proportionally smaller to my income.  This will free up more of my income for investing.

And you hit on something else, on an individual level, I barely notice inflation.  Were a billion dollar corporation, you can bet inflation would kick me in the ass to keep the money moving.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineThe Inner Eye
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14060516 - 03/03/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Inner Eye said:
[edit: flames removed, member warned]




LOL  :rockon:


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OfflineUniversalParadox
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Re: paper money. [Re: The Inner Eye]
    #14066841 - 03/04/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

$1


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xM��
� �V� �c�R��H�P


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: paper money. [Re: UniversalParadox]
    #14085277 - 03/08/11 05:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

paper money is a perfect example of real magick at work....

take a regular, worthless piece of paper, have some people put some special symbols on it... and VOILA, you have one of the most powerful/important/dangerous things in the world

:kingtard:


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Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Edited by LuSiD9 (03/08/11 06:12 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: paper money. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14085823 - 03/08/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The more useful something is as a commodity, the useful it is as money.  The idea that it's "worthless" is precisely the point.  It's supposed to facilitate the exchange of commodities, not be a commodity.  Besides, most money isn't even paper.  Most of it is just information in a database.


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OfflineUniversalParadox
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Re: paper money. [Re: Silversoul]
    #14086120 - 03/08/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Without a doubt it's not useless....we use it, right?

It currently works...to an extent.

PMs FTW.


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xM��
� �V� �c�R��H�P


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: paper money. [Re: Silversoul]
    #14091076 - 03/09/11 06:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Most of it is just information in a database.




so what'll happen if/when a giant solar flare hits the earth and fucks up all the electronics/computers and shit?.... the place this virtual 'money' exists.... it just vanishes?... never to be seen again?... banished to the place deleted computer files go?

I am drunk as fuck.... excuse me if this post doesn't make much sense :flowstone:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Edited by LuSiD9 (03/09/11 06:39 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: paper money. [Re: LuSiD9]
    #14098435 - 03/10/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting proposal. I think most of the sensitive data would be shielded from such a thing. But who knows.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: paper money. [Re: LuSiD9]
    #14098827 - 03/10/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Most of it is just information in a database.




so what'll happen if/when a giant solar flare hits the earth and fucks up all the electronics/computers and shit?.... the place this virtual 'money' exists.... it just vanishes?... never to be seen again?... banished to the place deleted computer files go?



Assuming there isn't some sort of failsafe system(I imagine there is), then 95% of the money supply would get wiped out.  But so would all debt.


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Offlinehumawebdesign
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Re: paper money. [Re: Silversoul]
    #14112751 - 03/13/11 01:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Paper money is a vehicle that brings products and services at your door step.


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