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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14069419 - 03/05/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: We know that not everything in this universe is caused, like radioactive decay for example
Source?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: deCypher]
#14069515 - 03/05/11 02:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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free will is an illusion
Quote:
Diploid said: in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
Except that the world doesn't work that way. Experiments in particle physics have for the last hundred years consistently demonstrated that some quantum events are uncaused. Radioactive decay, for example.
All that can be said about the decay of a nucleus is the probability that it will decay in a given amount of time. But there is no cause. It simply happens with certain probability.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14070538 - 03/05/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
"But most of the action is going on beneath the surface. Indeed, the conscious mind is often a drag on many activities. Too much thinking can give a golfer the yips. Drivers perform better on automatic pilot. Fiction writers report writing in a kind of trance in which they simply take dictation from the voices and characters in their head, a grace that is, alas, rarely if ever granted nonfiction writers.
Naturally, almost everyone has a slant on such experiments and whether or not the word “illusion” should be used in describing free will. Dr. Libet said his results left room for a limited version of free will in the form of a veto power over what we sense ourselves doing. In effect, the unconscious brain proposes and the mind disposes."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1299211989-kBhG98AUS58La/YBb+7i1w
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14070856 - 03/05/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'd still like a source on Diploid's statement.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: deCypher] 1
#14071006 - 03/05/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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--------------------
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Seems like the cause of radioactive decay would be whatever forces formed the radioactive element to begin with. The Sun is a source of radiation, caused by localized gas and the effects of gravity and pressure.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: deCypher]
#14073276 - 03/05/11 10:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said: We know that not everything in this universe is caused, like radioactive decay for example
Source?
I think he means that radioactive decay is a random process, a particle has seemingly no reason to be released at a specific time. However, the cause of radioactive decay is explicable, an excess of nuclear mass causes an atom to become unstable, and will "fall apart".
The specifics of radioactive decay may be explained soon enough anyways. Everything in the universe has a cause.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14073621 - 03/05/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: Everything in the universe has a cause.
That's what I was getting at.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: deCypher]
#14073761 - 03/06/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I'd still like a source on Diploid's statement. 
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:


Causality (physics) - Wikipedia
Quote:
An atom of some radioactive substance such as radium will eventually decay, and in the process it will emit energy. But there is no known triggering event that could serve as the cause of this decay event.
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
mushiepussy said: Everything in the universe has a cause.
That's what I was getting at. 
Source? 
Do you think the big bang was caused? If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered caused?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/06/11 09:37 PM)
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NlightN
Stranger

Registered: 03/06/11
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14078125 - 03/06/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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our perception could be lagging behind reality giving it enough time to process the illusion of free will
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: NlightN]
#14079330 - 03/07/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do you think the big bang was caused? If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered caused?
I think you're confusing cause with purpose.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14079380 - 03/07/11 01:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14079401 - 03/07/11 01:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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because that is what the context clues indicate, and if not your logic is faulty.
for instance- rain has a cause, but not a purpose. but if the rain didn't have a cause(impossible), then the plants growing after the rain would still have a cause, wich is the rain.
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14079406 - 03/07/11 01:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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spoonfed once again.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14079409 - 03/07/11 01:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: spoonfed once again.
Do you honestly consider explaining your position in a debate to be spoon-feeding? 
Quote:
mushiepussy said: because that is what the context clues indicate...
Which context clues? Can you explain how they indicate that?
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mushiepussy said: ...and if not your logic is faulty.
What logic? I did not make a logical proposition there, I asked a question.
Quote:
mushiepussy said: for instance- rain has a cause, but not a purpose.
I don't know what you're trying to express by mentioning this; purpose is a result, end, mean, aim, or goal of an action intentionally undertaken, or of an object being brought into use or existence, whether or not the purpose was a primary or secondary effect. By that definition, rain has a purpose for all living creatures on Earth.
I seriously don't know what gave you the idea that I'm confusing cause with purpose.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/07/11 02:05 AM)
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mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14079462 - 03/07/11 02:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do you think the big bang was ... If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered ...
these context clues.
If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered caused?
this logic
let me tell you EXACTLY what I mean by cause and purpose. cause- an event/action that leads to another action/event. purpose- an event/action with a specific end result or intention in mind.
rain has a purpose for all living creatures on Earth
no. rain is the result of uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. rain has no intentions or purpose, it is just rain. however, the cause of rain is water condensing enough in clouds to fall. The location of the rain could be over an ocean where it has no immediate effect on life, if it has a cause it will fall regardless of the outcome of it falling.
now go find a different definition to something ive said, use it to confuse my words, and i will spoonfeed you more.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14079551 - 03/07/11 03:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid, there are multiple types of causes (see Aristotle for a full elaboration of the 4 main types) and it depends on which type we're talking about. The decay of a radioactive atom is caused by the atom being radioactive. As far as the Big Bang, perhaps this is the sole exception to the rule that everything is caused: since there purportedly is no time before the Big Bang then there can be no event prior to it that serves as a cause.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14079648 - 03/07/11 05:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushiepussy said: Do you think the big bang was ... If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered ...
these context clues.
How do those context clues lead you to believe that I am confusing cause with purpose?
Quote:
mushiepussy said: If it wasn't, then how can any following event be considered caused?
this logic
I'm asking a question, not proposing a logical position; do you not understand the difference?
Quote:
mushiepussy said: let me tell you EXACTLY what I mean by cause and purpose. cause- an event/action that leads to another action/event.
That is an incomplete definition; you forgot to add that the second event is a consequence of the initial event.
I asked about how any event following the big bang, which had no cause, could be considered caused, and nobody has answered that question yet.
Quote:
mushiepussy said: purpose- an event/action with a specific end result or intention in mind.
rain has a purpose for all living creatures on Earth
no. rain is the result of uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. rain has no intentions or purpose, it is just rain. however, the cause of rain is water condensing enough in clouds to fall. The location of the rain could be over an ocean where it has no immediate effect on life, if it has a cause it will fall regardless of the outcome of it falling.
That doesn't mean it doesn't have a 'purpose' as defined by Wikipedia (I already posted this, I'm not sure why you feel the need to ignore it for some reason; you're either doing that, or you just don't understand it. ):
purpose is a result, end, mean, aim, or goal of...an object being brought into use...
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Water is an object, and it is brought into use by creatures; its purpose for them is to quench their thirst, and keep them alive.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: deCypher]
#14079661 - 03/07/11 05:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Poid, there are multiple types of causes (see Aristotle for a full elaboration of the 4 main types) and it depends on which type we're talking about. The decay of a radioactive atom is caused by the atom being radioactive.
The atom being radioactive is not an event, it is a fact; a cause is an event/action leads to another event/action, where the second event/action is a consequence of the initial one. As Wikipedia states, there is no known triggering event that could serve as the cause of this decay event; since there is no known event that leads to radioactive decay, where radioactive decay is a consequence of it, the evidence suggests that radioactive decay is uncaused.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Your Thoughts on Destiny? [Re: Poid]
#14080236 - 03/07/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
there is no known triggering event that could serve as the cause of this decay event
I've already stated that the forces which created the radioactive element would be the cause. Why isn't such a cause acceptable? It would be the same as winding up a watch and letting go. Without the creation of the element, radioactive decay would be impossible.
Quote:
As far as the Big Bang, perhaps this is the sole exception to the rule that everything is caused: since there purportedly is no time before the Big Bang then there can be no event prior to it that serves as a cause.
Hypothetical and unprovable isn't it? It could also be the case, as has been proposed, that the universe is the result of wave convergence. Previous universes would be the source of the waves. Almost as bizzare as something from nothing, but such a scenario wouldn't need to violate the laws of thermodynamics/momentum. Wave convergence causes temporary angular momentum, universes are born and dissipate.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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