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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1405646 - 03/24/03 09:03 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

I've seen film of individual iraqis being ordered to their knees and told to put their hands on their head. This is a clear breach of the geneva convention.




depends how you interpret that, but either way it's not a "clear" breach. But you're telling me there is no difference in how our troops that were captured were treated, and the way we treated those who surrendered to us?
Quote:

It doesn't matter if there are 5000 if they are are sat waiting back at the hotel until the army decides it is "safe" for them to be brought into front line areas.




umm, do watch the news? I know you think CNN is just a puppet for US propaganda, but there are many many many many many journalists on the front lines. That australian cameraman that got killed must've been in his hotel huh? where do you think all the pictures from the front lines come from? Not even to mention there are a lot of journalists in iraq that are not embedded.
Quote:

So why do you think they showed them on TV? Why do you think they had live POWS there too? Wouldn't they execute them all if they were making a point that they go round executing POWS? Think about it.



that may be true, as i stated before, i never claimed to know that they were executed.
Quote:

It's likely they were shot at close range because that's what happens in war. Just like thousands of iraqis will be shot at close range.



no, not really. learn a little about war.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: flow]
    #1405695 - 03/24/03 09:18 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

depends how you interpret that, but either way it's not a "clear" breach

You can't get much clearer.

but there are many many many many many journalists on the front lines.

No there arn't. One of the biggest complaints most journalists have made about the first gulf war and this one is that information is utterly and totally controlled by the army. Far more than any other recent war.

no, not really. learn a little about war.

So in street fighting people don't get shot at close range? Where did you get your education about war? Playstation?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (03/24/03 09:19 AM)

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1405729 - 03/24/03 09:30 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

No there arn't. One of the biggest complaints most journalists have made about the first gulf war and this one is that information is utterly and totally controlled by the army. Far more than any other recent war. 



you're just plain wrong, there are many journalists on the front lines.  where do the pictures of troops shooting at each other come from jackass?  Is the military supposed to let reporters give away info that could endanger the troops? of course they control info, but what journalists are complaining about this.  None that i have heard of so far, maybe because the military is being fair about this. 
Quote:

So in street fighting people don't get shot at close range? Where did you get your education about war? Playstation? 



they do, however it is extremely rare. we could go on to argue this because neither of us really knows, but im right you're wrong so  :tongue:

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Offlinegrib
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: flow]
    #1406173 - 03/24/03 12:30 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

depends how you interpret that, but either way it's not a "clear" breach.




How clintonian of you!


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: grib]
    #1406730 - 03/24/03 04:34 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

The core purpose of the Geneva Convention is to encourage the conduct of war in a way that minimizes violence to civilians. Another aim is to encourage respect for basic human dignities--toward civilians, combatants and captives. Yet another goal is to encourage warring powers to set up chains of command to ensure that combatants are held responsible for their actions.

One of the most important ways the Convention accomplishes these goals is to require that warring parties make a distinction between combatants and civilians. Soldiers are supposed to be subject to a chain of command, wear insignia and carry their arms openly; they are required to abide by the laws of war. If they don't, then they're not soldiers; they are illegal combatants, not entitled to the protections of the Convention. Breaking down this distinction--as the human rights groups wish to do--would have the effect of legitimatizing terrorists and giving them more incentives to hide among civilians and go after civilian targets.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Offlineshoe
In Death'sEmbrace
Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406793 - 03/24/03 05:16 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Hows this?

http://english.pravda.ru/war/2001/12/12/23429.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-18-2002/0001785225&EDATE=

Admittedly, these are from Afghanistan, but still, here is some proof of POWs who perished in the hands of the US. There was another article but i can't find it now, damnit..


--------------------
The above writings are fictional. It is being used to collect information to write a book about someone growing mushrooms.

And remember I will always love you,
As I claw your fucking throat away.
It can end no other way.

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
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Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: shoe]
    #1406800 - 03/24/03 05:21 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Quoted from the first sentence in the second link...
"Last November, America's Afghan allies
asphyxiated hundreds of surrendering Taliban prisoners by transporting them in
sealed cargo containers en route to a prison in Northern Afghanistan and they
buried them in a mass grave, according to reports by human rights
organizations and eyewitness accounts."

It was not US troops that did that. We obviously should have kept a closer eye on these Afghan allies though.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: flow]
    #1406802 - 03/24/03 05:22 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

of course they control info, but what journalists are complaining about this.

All the good ones.

None that i have heard of so far.

You really do need to read more.

US military commanders in the Gulf War tightly controlled access to information during the Gulf War, restricting most journalists to escorted pools.

The media felt the control was so tight during the Gulf War that the Washington bureau chiefs of some of the largest media organisations in the US wrote to then Secretary of Defence Dick Cheney to complain.

They said, "The combination of security review and the use of the pool system as a form of censorship made the Gulf War the most under covered major conflict in modern American history."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/americas/1563909.stm



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1406804 - 03/24/03 05:25 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

more from that article...

"And while nothing that
Newsweek learned suggests that American forces had advance knowledge of the killings, witnessed the prisoners being stuffed into the unventilated trucks,
or were in a position to prevent that, they were in the area of the prison at
the time the containers were delivered, although probably not when they were
opened,..."


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1406827 - 03/24/03 05:37 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

You really do need to read more.

Then does the usual Alex "I can't distinguish between past tense and present tense" dance, complaining about how the media was handled in the 1991 Gulf war.

Alex, have you forgotten so soon giving me grief for trying to show the difference between censorship and "self-censorship"? Don't you remember that the article we were arguing over stated very plainly that the military was giving the media basically free rein, with no prior restraint whatsoever?

The reports are going out live, with nothing but the reporters' own judgement. True, if one of them goofs up and reveals sensitive information re: hidden troop positions or whatever that leads to an advantage for the Iraqis, that reporter will later be in some deep doo-doo, but not before that info has gone out all over the world to be captured forever on millions of hard drives for later review. The military may later piss and moan but they can never put the cat back in the bag. The level of trust they have given the journalists is actually astounding.

There has never been a war before with this much freedom of the press. Never.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Phred]
    #1406836 - 03/24/03 05:42 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

complaining about how the media was handled in the 1991 Gulf war.

You have evidence things have changed? Please provide it.

There has never been a war before with this much freedom of the press. Never.

Evidence?

Bit of a sea change isn't it? From the most controlled war in history 10 years ago to the "Free-est" today? What changed their minds?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1406857 - 03/24/03 05:56 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

I'm suprised you didn't say the change is because the US realized the oportunity for immediate propaganda.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1406882 - 03/24/03 06:09 PM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

You have evidence things have changed? Please provide it.

Turn on your television.

Bit of a sea change isn't it? From the most controlled war in history 10 years ago to the "Free-est" today?

Yes, it was. Why are you complaining that it happened?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Phred]
    #1407560 - 03/25/03 03:35 AM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Turn on your television.

I'm not seeing anything I didn't see in 1991.

Yes, it was. Why are you complaining that it happened?

I presume this means you have no evidence for what you are saying.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: Xlea321]
    #1408001 - 03/25/03 06:51 AM (21 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

I'm not seeing anything I didn't see in 1991.



hey fuckstick, you said all of the good journalists are complaining about how the info is being controlled in this war, back that up with something or shut up.
or, and i know this is new to you, admit you were wrong.

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Rumsfeld comments [Re: flow]
    #1408924 - 03/25/03 12:35 PM (21 years, 8 days ago)

Just so you guys know, the people being held at Guantanimo bay are not backed by any nation and are therefore illegal combatants.  They can legallly be held there as long as they are treated humanely.  How do we know they are being treated humanely?  For one thing, they are holding british and aussie prisoners there and the respective governments make sure they are being treated humanely.  Also, they have allowed reporters in to check it out first hand (thats where these pictures come from).  Iraq, on the other hand, takes POWs and forces them to speak against thier country and be humiliated on government controlled TV.  If you read the international law, you will find that filming of the prison camps are ok but what Iraq does is in clear violation.  I dare you to prove me wrong. :wink: 


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:egyptian:

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