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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Icelander]
    #14044887 - 02/28/11 08:03 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right and according to Becker (and I agree) fully internalizing it is not a possibility.



But why isn't it possible? If you truly believed that the concept of life and death are illusory, you would have no reason to fear death because you can't fear what you don't believe in, especially if there is no "you" to begin with.

What I have trouble with, concerning Becker's work, is that he starts off with the assumption that you cannot internalize it and therefore any evidence of internalizing it is automatically falsified because it would be considered a denial; there seems to be no way to differentiate acceptance or overcoming and denial.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: deCypher]
    #14044889 - 02/28/11 08:03 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Seems to me the existence of a 1,000 page suicide note says otherwise.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Kickle]
    #14044896 - 02/28/11 08:04 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Seems to me the existence of a 1,000 page suicide note says otherwise.




He successfully committed suicide after writing it, though... and apparently with no hesitation.  I think it's more likely that he just wanted to share his thoughts with the world before leaving.  :shrug2:


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14044901 - 02/28/11 08:05 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Seems to me the existence of a 1,000 page suicide note says otherwise.




He successfully committed suicide after writing it, though... and apparently with no hesitation.  I think it's more likely that he just wanted to share his thoughts with the world before leaving.  :shrug2:



I concur. If he had these ideas, never shared them, and killed himself, then no one would know what he was doing.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14044916 - 02/28/11 08:07 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Who cares if anyone knows what he's thinking? Death anxiety is what cares that some image of himself lives on. And 1,000 pages reeks of some heavy anxiety IMO.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Kickle]
    #14044938 - 02/28/11 08:11 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I just don't see any support for why all suicides necessarily cannot get rid of their death anxiety by accepting death.  I'm even tempted to argue that some people on their death bed, after passing through the typical stages of denial, anger, etcetera might actually come to terms with their impending mortality and die without the slightest trace of any fear of death.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: deCypher]
    #14044969 - 02/28/11 08:17 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. So although it may not be necessary, everything I can see points to it being an integral part of human life. Including what I can see in my own.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Kickle]
    #14044979 - 02/28/11 08:18 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Who cares if anyone knows what he's thinking? Death anxiety is what cares that some image of himself lives on. And 1,000 pages reeks of some heavy anxiety IMO.



So are you saying that if someone comes across something worth sharing about death, instead of sharing it, they should just immediately kill themselves? Just because you aren't afraid of death doesn't mean you have to instantly kill yourself.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14044993 - 02/28/11 08:20 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

He didn't know shit about death, no one does. He knew his own mind, that's it. And IMO he bought into its BS hook line and sinker.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Kickle]
    #14045312 - 02/28/11 09:10 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

If you only know your own mind how do you know what he knew?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14045336 - 02/28/11 09:12 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I don't.

Do you think he knew something about death?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Kickle]
    #14047211 - 03/01/11 07:19 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
So although it may not be necessary, everything I can see points to it being an integral part of human life. Including what I can see in my own.




I'll agree with you there; my sole point of contention was whether or not all humans necessarily have it.

Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you think he knew something about death?




I think he knew something about the fear of death, and how to overcome it.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14047359 - 03/01/11 08:22 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
huh? You can't experience a rock, only your interpretation of the rock. The thing is that there is no "you" or differentiation to begin with. So it's all lies




Yeah that's what I meant by everything is consciousness... It's all just a projection.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: deCypher]
    #14047782 - 03/01/11 10:25 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
That's just not true. If the anxiety is too great then suicide becomes the escape or the shield from death anxiety.




An escape from a fear that involves accepting the fear and bravely walking into it?  That just doesn't ring right.  More like the suicide (in this case, I'm sure many other motivations exist where death anxiety is still present) is embracing death because he or she is no longer afraid of it.  At any rate neither of us can prove either way, but I think my analysis is more convincing.





I don't care how convinced you are I experienced it.  At one time over a year ago while looking at my death anxiety I became so anxious for such a long time I was ready to pull the plug. (actually Jung mentions this in his autobiography) I wanted to be dead because I felt so afraid and anxious that death felt like my only escape.  Long bouts of deep breathing and meditation finally got me through it. This is confirmed in Beckers book. Did you read it?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Icelander]
    #14048632 - 03/01/11 01:50 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

OK, I guess I can see how suicide can be an escape from death anxiety; being a "shield" still seems incomprehensible to me.  You'd still have to show that all suicides killed themselves because they wanted to escape death anxiety, which IMO isn't true.  And have you read the thread?  I stated I've read Becker's book but it's been a while.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: deCypher]
    #14048658 - 03/01/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I don't think that all suicides are due to death anxiety. If I was in extreme mental or physical anguish I'd off myself over the objections of my fear of death.  I've never said nothing is more powerful than death anxiety I've just argued the things people were saying were stronger.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Icelander]
    #14048661 - 03/01/11 01:55 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Gotcha.  :thumbup:


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What does this mean to you? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14048704 - 03/01/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
huh? You can't experience a rock, only your interpretation of the rock. The thing is that there is no "you" or differentiation to begin with. So it's all lies




Yeah that's what I meant by everything is consciousness... It's all just a projection.



sorry, i thought you said that everything was conscious


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