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OfflineKickleM
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Are Elders important?
    #14047121 - 03/01/11 06:44 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

To a large degree I feel as though the emergence of Elders in my life has been very limited. I mean, there is no tribal circle with an Elder telling stories to the youth. There really is no means in our world that I'm aware of for passing down the wisdom that years of living can cultivate. The internet is of course an ideal place, but often it's so full of bull headed youth that the Elder's congregate together instead of deal with the BS. And that leaves the youth to speak amongst themselves and to push forward making the same mistakes as the Elders already did and could have provided advice about. I dunno... I just feel like we do not value our Elders and often want only to hear what we want to hear and personally I think it's sad. But what about you? Do you think Elder's are to be valued, or are they stuck in the past and need to be moved beyond?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14047132 - 03/01/11 06:50 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I think some are, not just someone who is old.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #14047533 - 03/01/11 09:19 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
To a large degree I feel as though the emergence of Elders in my life has been very limited. I mean, there is no tribal circle with an Elder telling stories to the youth. There really is no means in our world that I'm aware of for passing down the wisdom that years of living can cultivate. The internet is of course an ideal place, but often it's so full of bull headed youth that the Elder's congregate together instead of deal with the BS. And that leaves the youth to speak amongst themselves and to push forward making the same mistakes as the Elders already did and could have provided advice about. I dunno... I just feel like we do not value our Elders and often want only to hear what we want to hear and personally I think it's sad. But what about you? Do you think Elder's are to be valued, or are they stuck in the past and need to be moved beyond?




I'm the only elder you'll ever need.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTony
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: teknix]
    #14047563 - 03/01/11 09:27 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

We need all kinds of different age groups to maintain an evolving identity, the false notion of superior material and wisdom and thus happiness at greater age. It gives us something to strive for, or perhaps something to avoid. It's all part of maya, but at the same time it's innocent like the wind.

So, I might say all age groups are equally important, and none are really that important.

Is there anything that is not a paradox when you think about it?

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Tony]
    #14047947 - 03/01/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

To be honest, right after I made this post I realized that there is a gaping hole in the thought. We have elders that teach from the very basics of morality, e.g., sharing is caring, all the way up to a specific discipline that requires unique perspective. We just call it the education system. A classroom is our tribal circle and the teacher the elder. The stories selected when we are young are designed to give us a social foundation and as we age we learn other skills for interacting with the world.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14048039 - 03/01/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Just more cattle.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14048269 - 03/01/11 12:31 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Depends on how specific you get with the education. Most specialist positions require a great deal of independent thinking and the education received revolves around developing that independence. At least IME.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14048281 - 03/01/11 12:34 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The elementary school is teaching more about what you must know and must do in someones opinion, it's really lacking wisdom.
Although, there are wise teachers, but still most are doing their job. I would love to sit in company of national americans while wise elder is teaching.

Imo, up to college, most part of what is taught is bs. All that I needed til 9Th grade was reading, writing, math
and foreign language. And physics, just because my profession involves it.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14048818 - 03/01/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Take one look in the Psychedelic Experience forum and tell me it wouldnt benefit from more elders visiting there and actually being listened to.

It exists in the Shroomery too. What are Trusted Cultivators, Trusted Identifiers and Moderators other than a sort of elders?


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Asante]
    #14048837 - 03/01/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Yeah that's true. Seems the role of elder gets filled one way or another.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14049718 - 03/01/11 04:59 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

I don't think anyone is important.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Icelander]
    #14049726 - 03/01/11 05:00 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Why's that?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14050046 - 03/01/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Sometimes moos make microwaves but them's still mooin.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14050110 - 03/01/11 06:05 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Why's that?





Cause they all disappear without a trace.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Icelander]
    #14050608 - 03/01/11 07:26 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

I think elders can give good advice but few of us young 'uns listen to it.  Then again, the best lesson is experience IMO; sometimes words just aren't enough to let wisdom sink in.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: Kickle]
    #14050658 - 03/01/11 07:35 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
To a large degree I feel as though the emergence of Elders in my life has been very limited. I mean, there is no tribal circle with an Elder telling stories to the youth. There really is no means in our world that I'm aware of for passing down the wisdom that years of living can cultivate. The internet is of course an ideal place, but often it's so full of bull headed youth that the Elder's congregate together instead of deal with the BS. And that leaves the youth to speak amongst themselves and to push forward making the same mistakes as the Elders already did and could have provided advice about. I dunno... I just feel like we do not value our Elders and often want only to hear what we want to hear and personally I think it's sad. But what about you? Do you think Elder's are to be valued, or are they stuck in the past and need to be moved beyond?




I have had very few Elders that I felt offered guidance. By and large, they have been university professors who were into things that I thought were cool. But notice, "professors" and "thought" are both intellectual foci, and an Elder in the sense of a trusted, more experienced mentor really needs to have an affective (affectionate) component. Not to be confused with the mentor-mentee relationships of ancient Sparta, mind you  :drysmash: I'm thinking more of a guru-chela relationship which should not contain power or sexual dynamics. Ideally, it should be a heart-mind relationship - at least, that was always my ideal, and one only able to be acquired abstractly by extrapolating from the lives of Masters and learning to cultivate certain motives within myself. I can only compare any progress I've made to younger versions of myself. If I had not had a radical shift in my youth, then I'd be an older version of who I was before that shift. I'd still be materialist, greedy for experiences, focused on instinctual and social life and status, money, sex, progeny, and property. The usuals. The games that people take so seriously. I'm playing The Master Game (DeRopp) instead  within a common life of work and insurance, taxes and grocery shopping. Maybe I'll be playing Gandalf the Grey instead of Grandpa, over  bubbling retorts instead of burbling rug rats.  :wizard:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/01/11 08:05 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: deCypher]
    #14050694 - 03/01/11 07:42 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I think elders can give good advice but few of us young 'uns listen to it.  Then again, the best lesson is experience IMO; sometimes words just aren't enough to let wisdom sink in.





True dat. It is a rare human that can learn from the experience of others.  That's why vets against war can't make a dent.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14054616 - 03/02/11 01:28 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I'm thinking more of a guru-chela relationship which should not contain power or sexual dynamics. Ideally, it should be a heart-mind relationship - at least, that was always my ideal, and one only able to be acquired abstractly by extrapolating from the lives of Masters and learning to cultivate certain motives within myself. I can only compare any progress I've made to younger versions of myself. If I had not had a radical shift in my youth, then I'd be an older version of who I was before that shift. I'd still be materialist, greedy for experiences, focused on instinctual and social life and status, money, sex, progeny, and property. The usuals. The games that people take so seriously. I'm playing The Master Game (DeRopp) instead  within a common life of work and insurance, taxes and grocery shopping. Maybe I'll be playing Gandalf the Grey instead of Grandpa, over  bubbling retorts instead of burbling rug rats.  :wizard:




Well I don't think there are any rules to the guru-chela relationship, other than that it is bound to be aesthetically appealing and therefor probably won't involve any weird sex or power dynamics.  What I got from your post is that you moved beyond the first three chakras, which is where 90% of society resides all the time, but in day to day life that's how you're going to have to interact.  For me, I feel like I was born with very well functioning higher energetic centers and am working now to develop the lower ones so that i can actually move about in the world and effect change upon it.  Just an interesting comparison across generations...I often think that the idea of indigo children is valid, that some young people now incarnated on this planet aren't coming from the same cosmic direction other generations have been.  Maybe that's just every new generation though.  Still interesting.  Anywho, cool post as always

to answer the OP, I think elders are important but our society is bankrupt in that department because, having not developed higher states of consciousness, many people upon aging sink into creature comforts and stagnation.  That will happen to all of us to some degree I'm sure, but an awareness of the energetic passage of life (thanks LSD!) can prepare you to handle old age in the best way possible.  And do it all even better next time around.

Personally, I think i'm gonna be a dope elder


--------------------
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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14054857 - 03/02/11 02:05 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

Icelander was a great elder but eventually I had to kill him. :hehehe:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are Elders important? [Re: g00ru]
    #14055278 - 03/02/11 03:25 PM (13 years, 2 days ago)

As Wilber says, 'transcend and include.' I am a composite of the centers (7 or 5 depending on whether you combine the upper two and lower two, as in Vajrayana Yoga). I have had a radical shift, and like the symbol for Sufism, my Heart has wings. I am not submerged in the lower centers, but try to remain in the Heart Center as a witness of my lower needs. I often deny the motivations of those centers (not the physical operations of the centers: defecation, urination/ejaculation, digestion). I need to maintain the motivational balance of the lower centers for essential life in the world, but I look 'upward' so-to-speak to motivations for meaning, insight, enlightenment, communication of any enlightenment gleaned and a realization of all the centers as the facets of one Diamond Body.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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